Ok people I am all for safety (as much as I can afford thank you) so what is all this about short fences and ripping?
What is the point. How does it work. Why is it better (or not) how do you keep a straight line cut?
If someone could answer this it would be a help. Preferably with out turning this into a Short is great Long is dumb/Short is stupid Long is the way to go argument. I don’t mind facts on both sides of this (or at least honest opinion) but I would like this to not turn into a name calling event I truly do not understand how short would be better (I think I understand why it would be safer but not better)
Remember that the important thing is to get a good cut.
Also what can you do on an existing saw to get this short fence. For instance can I put a short piece on the side of my current Rip fence and stop it short to get the same effect? Or would Deltas funny fence do the trick if it was pulled back?
Well let me know what you all think.
Doug Meyer
Replies
You have to be dumb to use a long fence for ripping!!
Ha ha. Just kidding. Actually it is not the length of the fence, but its position that is relavent. When ripping the end of the fence should be even with the front of the blade. This set up prevents the board from ever binding between the fence and blade.... especially the back of the blade. If I am ripping straight lumber I generally dont worry about it. If I have a large pile to rip or if the lumber is not straight (S2S) then I slide the fence back to be even with the front of the blade (I have the Unifence). It really makes a big difference. If your blade and fence are not alligned properly the board will tend to drift. All comercial rip saws and European cabinet saws have the short fence, so don't think of it as a new idea.
Mike
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
You're not really using a 'short' fence for ripping Doug. What you are using is a standard length fence, but it's the European style of fence, which is what the Delta Unifence looks like.
All that happens is that the fence is slid back in the locking device so that front end of the fence only projects forward just long enough to support the infeed side of the cut. This is up to the point that the downward cutting front teeth of the saw blade engage in the wood. This point will be no further forward than just beyond the centre point of the blade as seen from the side. That is, as viewing the vertical diameter of the blade.
With the above comments in mind do try to have a read of the article in the following link for what I think will provide most, or perhaps all the answers to your questions, http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=powertools&file=articles_108.shtml Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Doug...
I won't add to what mud and Sgain already said as I think it may already been answered in the other thread.. but for those that might not read it there and ask the question here, I will re-post the pics.
Just keep in mind that the fence has no purpose what-so-ever beyond the point the tail end of the stock is severed that would affect cut quality or accuracy!
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Doug:
I hear you and your desire to avoid the "short is good long is dumb" kind of discussion. I just wanted to add that, in fact, US TS users developed a different method to deal with wood getting pinched between the back iof the blade and the fence. I rememer being told several times (I think old manuals even suggested this method.)how one should align your Beis. so that the cutoff end was slightly out of parallel to the blade, maybe 1/64". I think the idea behind this method was the same as the short rip fence, but the short rip fence is a much better design solution.
".....in fact, US TS users developed a different method to deal with wood getting pinched between the back iof the blade and the fence. I rememer being told several times (I think old manuals even suggested this method.) How one should align your Beis. so that the cutoff end was slightly out of parallel to the blade, maybe 1/64". I think the idea behind this method was the same as the short rip fence, but the short rip fence is a much better design solution."
If you look at old Fay & Egan, Oliver or Yates-American catalogues you'll see that before WWII all commercial rip saws were designed with the short rip fence. Same goes for heavy-duty post war stuff, too. I'd say that the long through fence was a low cost "solution" introduced when cheaper semi-fabricated saws became more widely available in the 1930s and 1940s - it was simply cheaper to manufacture a fence which locked fore and aft than a fence which was properly triangulated from the operator side of the saw, so saws like the Unisaw adopted this cost cutting measure. I feel that where the Biesmeyer went wrong was in not providing the facility to draw back the fence blade to the middle or leading edge of the saw, as you'll see on every modern slider. Bies. simply aped the existing through fence designs. As to setting-up 1/64in out of parallel being a solution, well I've found that ripping reaction timber can cause 1/4in or more movement which would certainly cause a jam on a standard Biesmeyer fence no matter what you do to it - other than using an auxilliary ripping fence ;-)
Scrit
Ya da man....
Regards from the colonies.. ahh, that's right.. we just said NO! ha.. ha..
Sarge.. jt
Thanks for the history lesson. It's further confirmation that the "short" rip fence is an old idea whose time has returned.
Short fence is great for ripping. If you are going to use a dado cutter you need a long fence. Don't try to dado on a short fence.
Frank
Morning Frank...
"Short fence is great for ripping. If you are going to use a dado cutter you need a long fence. Don't try to dado on a short fence".
Frank
****************************************************
Long time.. no see, how are ya? Excellent point about dadoes. Better yet you could use a router and basically eliminate the danger of that operation.
I have a Ryobi BT-3000 I just retired from ripping. It sits back in the secondary shop by the wood rack with extension tables all around it to size down sheet goods on the rare occasion I use them. And it sits with a dado set on-board. That little sliding miter table comes in handy on occasion and takes the fence out of a dado equation altogether. My hands never get more than 16" from the open top blade required for that cut.
My little slider will do up to 14" cross-cut on a dado. Anything wider or longer than that, I have several routers. ha.. ha....
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Sarge,
I have moved to another city for work reasons and have not been lurking much.
It was pretty scary the first time I tried to dado without switching back to the long fence. I think that after 14 beers or so it wouldn't be so scary. I would rather stand in a police recruiting line in Faluja than try it again.
Frank
Why long and not short (fence) when doing dados? What mechanics are different then? It would seem to me that the greater kick back potential of a dado set would further demand a short fence.Mind you..... I'm not advocating one thing or another here. I don't like dado blades under any circumstances and as to the short/long fence ....... let's just say that I'm on the fence.
I would imagine that with the dados ability to kind os chew sideways and such it would be easy to loss control of this. But that is just a guess.
Doug
I realize I'm not as experienced as most people but at least in theory I would have to disagree. Technically true the fence has no purpose past the blade BUT the longer it is, the easier it is to keep your stock against the fence. When I rip a sheet of plywood it's very easy to wobble around. With a long fence it's much easier to see the sheet coming away from the fence since the distance multiplies the farther away you get. In other words 1/32 at the fence is 1/8 at 4'. An 1/8 is easier to see. When I have a lot of 1 size ripping to do I often clamp a straight edge on my outfeed table in-line with my fence for that reason.
"Technically true the fence has no purpose past the blade BUT the longer it is, the easier it is to keep your stock against the fence."
Jim, as I said in my earlier post, the European style fences aren't short, they're simply pulled back towards the infeed/operator side. The length of the fence is much the same as the US style 'long' fences, but now you have more of it to guide your board on the infeed side where it matters, not on the outfeed side where it doesn't.
If I were to add a board as you describe to make the fence even longer, I think I'd reverse your practice and add it to the infeed side, not the outfeed end of the game where it's immaterial to the cut.
I certainly concede the US style long fences have their uses for non-through cuts, e.g., grooves, housings (dados) and rebates cut in two stages, not that I've ever used a saw in that manner. Those types of cuts on a saw are very rare here in the UK-- basically non-existent due to legislation. We simply use other techniques to get much the same result. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Are there any significant, functional differences between a UniFence and a European style fence. I have a UniFence and like being about to slide the fence back so it's before the blade, or even swapping the the long fence for a short one.
"Are there any significant, functional differences between a UniFence and a European style fence."
No. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Jim...
I would have a hard time coming up with not having too much fence reference to aid stability with cutting full sheets of ply-wood on a TS without a large slider. But I will agree with Sgain that it should be in front of the cut and not behind. I personally will down-size large sheets on the rare occasion I use them with a circular saw and a Tru-grip, then take them to the TS for actual sizing.
And the fact that plywood is laminated which stabilizes it about eliminates the possibly of getting high reaction wood that can spread easily. That's why I built my short fence (see Sgains explanation of the fact it's not that short) so it can be removed with 2 thumb screws in just about 2 seconds, but the world and things changed.
At one time I did cut larger sheets on the TS using your long fence method with plywood by simply removing the short fence. I knew the ply had little chance of spread. And at a time not so long ago it did just that... remain stable with little chance of spread!
With the introduction of Chinese and imported ply that confident feeling of ply being somewhat predictable came to a screeching halt the first time I got a batch of Chinese ( oriental made?) ply that cupped and twisted when cut open with the saw blade and guess what happened as the saw grabbed it violently from my hand. I was lucky and just immediately turned loose and hit the floor faster than I can ever remember when someone shouted "in-coming" in Viet Nam.
That was the last time I ever used a long fence period.... So I agree that your theory was good enough for me till I ran across the expensive but p*ss poor quality stuff you often find now they call ply-wood. End of testimonial.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Am I missing something here?
With a proper splitter (meaning splitter or rive) and guard installed, what does it matter which type of fence you use, short or long?
Unless you're cutting inferior material. I'm not trying to be argumentative but just trying to learn more. It seems to me that it could be a matter or personal preference as to which fence type you're more comfortable with or that which you learned from.
Just my 2ø.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/13/2007 9:32 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Evening Bob..
The splitter-riving knife is a total separate issue than the fence. In lieu of explain it all again (busy in shop), I copied and will paste a post from "Best type splitter for Uni-saw" I posted yesterday. This will clarify the difference and explain the advantages.
No one is pushing a for a "high pressure" short fence sale. Here are the differences so you may make up your own mine which you think makes more sense. I have already been through that stage and I won't rip without one based on my own appraisal of what I feel is the best. It sits on top of my Biesemeyer not as a crown molding to dress it up or as a conversation piece, but as a safer approach when I made my personal decision on which to use!
Morning Jointerman...
"But is there any disadvantage to using a fence like this"? ... jm
If there is JM, I haven't run across it in the last 4 years since I adopted the idea from Sgain Dubh (Richard Jones Furniture). Give it some careful thought and see if you can come up with a reason. This thing is standard safety in Europe and other locations which are very strict on safety regulations.
With the exception of a very few, the majority of TS fence design does not use the rear of fence as a dual lock on for stability of fence position as some of the old designs did. The T system pretty much is copied now and that has been perfected to be secure with only a front lock set-up.
With that in mind, what is the purpose of having a fence that goes beyond where the actual cutting action of the blade has finished severing the stock? That point on any saw or any blade is always before the center tooth of a blade and never beyond that point. Never... ever! So the point of extending it beyond the final cut IS.... ?
The point of not extending it IS... you have finished the cut at some point before mid-blade or center tooth. The danger of kick-back is not so much with the front down cutting teeth of the blade, but the "rear rising teeth" which can grab and bite the wood if they make further contact as they serve no useful purpose at that point.
In an ideal world the splitter or riving knife has that portion of the stock already severed separated from the rear teeth. But.... but... if you run into a piece of reaction wood that reacts by spreading, where does it have to go beyond the blade other than against an extended fence. It will touch it and what will happen if there is no more room for it to spread is it will ricochet back toward the rear of the blade where those dangerous "rear rising teeth" are just waiting in ambush. This could happen also if the operator loses balance or moves stock carelessly if not concentrating on keeping it firmly against the fence. And if the already severed stock touches those rear teeth, only your creator knows which way the stock is going to launch as a sharp blade spinning at over 4000 rpm powered by 2 + HP is very capable of launch.
Some type of crown anchored to the splitter or riving knife will check upward movement in that event.. but an open top splitter alone will not. The fence can check movement on it's side.. a feather-board or spring-board on the opposite. With the top and both sides covered that only leaves forward and backward as a launch zone. That is eliminated by "keeping the lane clear" (never positioning yourself in front or rear of a spinning blade) and if under all circumstances you keep your hands at least 9-10" away from the blade by using push sticks, you have put yourself in position to be about as safe as your going to be with a piece of potentially dangerous machinery without the large expense of large sliding tables which are another story of their own.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
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Edited 4/15/2007 1:03 am ET by cmiller231
Sounds like a winner to me CM! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
For me it is a quality of stock issue. When I am straight line ripping S2S lumber I pull the fence back. Also when I have a huge pile to rip I know that I am more likely to make a mistake.... the "short fence is an extra measure of safety.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I agree w/ a long fence before the blade, however what is your stock against as you push an 8' long piece up to the blade and you have 7' past the blade. It might be me but I tend to get a lot of wobble and need the fence to steady the wood.
"I agree w/ a long fence before the blade, however what is your stock against as you push an 8' long piece up to the blade and you have 7' past the blade. It might be me but I tend to get a lot of wobble and need the fence to steady the wood."
Have you tried adding an outfeed table or even free-standing outfeed rollers (not as good but better than nothing) to the rear of your table saw to support the work? If you are pushing in a straight line with regular pressure the cut will tend to continue in a straight line so I have to wonder how well you are supporting the material, because I've found the trick to cutting sheet stock is support. If you still have a problem then using a square offcut piece of chipboard or MDF at the back of the material running against the fence works well - I use the technique all the time on the shaper spindle moulder (shaper) and router table.
Scrit
Edited 4/15/2007 8:50 am by Scrit
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