Should a new warped stair tread be scrapped or installed?
Vich
| Posted in General Discussion on
I have thirteen 13/16″ Mahogany treads, but 2 are warped with about a 3/8″ rocker, a little more than the thickness of a pencil.
Should I trash them or install them anyway? It’s some work & expense making new ones, but less than removing & re-installing new ones in 6 months if they’re a problem.
If I install the warped ones, then how?
A) Embrace the warp and just brace the back corner and let the thick flooring adhesive fill it. One back corner of the step will just be 3/8″ higher.
B) Force it to be flat using screws, dowels, or blocks + finish nails. I’m a little afraid it’ll separate later since warped wood likes to return to its shape.
C) Some magical trick you can tell me about. 🙂
Note: They’re going in on top of 2″ x 11″ lumber treads that used to have carpet. They’re all perfectly flat. I’m securing the backs with drilled screws under the risers with liberal amounts of construction adhesive throughout.
Securing the fronts: A friend said to just use finish nails to hold the fronts while it dries, that I’d hardly notice the holes. I’m no dowel expert but I do have a kit so that’s a possibility too (behind the bullnose). Or temporary metal L’s under the bullnoses screwed to the risers to hold it down then removed after it all dries. Or blocks secured to the skirts & patch those later. Probably just use 4 or 5 finishing nails and try filling them – I’ll test the method first. Any advice?
Thanks so much!
Replies
Many of the forum have experience I've read before about kerfing to relieve the warp (I think it was MJ). The underside is where the kerf would be made to counter the warping before you install the riser flat with fasteners. Then the wood will not move. Someone will either confirm this technique or not.
I've used kerfing to relieve cupping before jamming on a breadboard end but I've never tried it for a warped or twisted board along its length.
Kerfing looks great for extreme bends. Although a few sideways cuts 3/8" deep could lessen the strength of the warp's natural pull without affecting thickness. Sort of a halfway kerf.
If you can't make them lay flat, scrap them.
I have been reading a lot on stairs and the experts say that even a small difference will trip us.
There is a concrete subway staircase in NY(?) that has one step that is something like 1/8" higher than the rest of the steps. They set up cameras and it is amazing at how many people stub their toes on that step and stumble. Apparently it doesn't take much to mess us up on stairs.
Yes. I would under no circumstances have a tread that is warped that much.
Wow! Active site. Thanks so much for all the assistance!
So what I'm hearing is that option A is out, even though the elevated section would be to the rear. Exact riser consistency is important.
I need either find a way to flatten it permanently, or make 2 new ones. (Kerfing seems to be for extreme bends, not 3/8" for a 4' span).
Note: It takes about 20 lbs of pressure to flatten it under the double-thick bullnose, so not much. Adhesives or nails should do that.
The 2x12 that's secured to the stringers are very flat and solid.
I'm thinking Loctite 8x adhesive with some 2 1/2" ultra thin finish nails should hold. The rear of the treads will be well secured with 5 screws under the riser.
Does anyone think the Loctite 8x adhesive might give way over time? I suppose if it does, I can do some screw holes then. I'd rather not have plugs. I'm hesitent to try doweling the back side of the bullnoses - I have a kit but have never used it.
Also note: The bottom step is unavoidably 7 3/8", all the others are 7", but the top one's 6 1/2". Short of using thin vinyl on the stairs, raising the entire upstairs 1/2" (not happening), or replacing all the sub-treads over the stringers with 1/2" thinner boards, I may have to live with this. It's not up to the code's 3/8" variance allowance, but I'm wondering if it's really such a danger for a top step to be shorter.
Hmm. These treads seem too thick then. My bottom step will be 7 3/8. To 6 1/2. The rest 7". It's meant for 3/8" material, not 3/4".
I may need to have them milled a bit, maybe 1/4" - thinner may have some strength issues. Maybe the milling process can flatten the tops, then I can add supports to the bottom to keep them flat and use flooring adhesive to fill the gap.
I'm not sure what you mean by the bottom step being 7 3/8" to 6 1/2" but if you have more than 1/4" deviation in riser height on any step it will probably not meet local code. Stairs are tricky and I had to replace an entire custom built flight once upon a time because the bottom riser was 5/16" short. I don't do stairs anymore. It's amazing how little deviation can trip us up.
You can try to straighten it by steaming it to remove the twist.
As the others have said, if it's not straight/even I would make new ones.
Use the jointer and planer to get it flat & true, then you can pad it out to get to the needed thickness and steal from the back of another tread to get material for the new nose.
Material that thick and wide is going to want to move. I'm not sure large amounts of construction adhesive on the stair is a good idea. I'd ask that Q over at Fine Homebuilding's forum. You'll find a link at the bottom right corner of this page.
I had to google "Jointer". That's out of my league. Thanks for the tip on not using construction adhesive. I know flooring adhesive is meant for movement. I just thought 38" width was too short to worry about it.
My next worry is that the top step's riser is just 6 1/2" but the rest are 7. The bottom one's 7 3/8. I may have to have the treads milled down 1/4" anyway to meet code.
I have some extra lumber to make 2 new treads if I can't figure out a way to secure these to the bottom.
Take the 2x11 lumber treads off. Plane each the proper amount so that when you put on your finished treads, each and every stair riser is the same height, to within 1/16th. You'll be planing a different amount from each of the lumber treads. Should be easy to take off and put back on, since they are rough parts.
Skip the construction adhesive. Use finish nails to fasten the finish treads.
Nice! I was going to have the treads sanded down ($50) until I realized I'd used finish nails in the bullnoses so it would rip up the sander.
I can't remove the 2x11 lumber treads for long, the house is in use, but I can probably replace them with new lumber.
Presently every riser is exactly the same. If I make new ones 3/8" thinner then they'll all be within 1/16th.
Are you saying you applied the bullnose to the front of the tread with finish nails instead of cutting it into the tread? Were they also clamped and glued? The front edge of a tread can be put under tremendous stress at times and this could lead to failure at this point. I think it's almost guaranteed if you cut the treads down to 3/8". At the very least you should plan on reinforcing the front edge of the tread with either a small cove or quarter round molding underneath.
How exactly did you make your treads and what tools do you have at your disposal? From your posts you sound more like a DIY'r with limited tools rather than a woodworker. Knowing what tools you have and experience level is always helpful when giving advice. Do you have a 2 1/4 hp or larger router?
Retrofitting builder stairs is not always as easy as it seems for reasons you are discovering.
I cut 1 1/4" off the front of the tread and "folded" it around to the bottom so that the grain would match.
They're glued and clamped. I used a tightly screwed in C-Clamp every 8 inches with an overspilling amount of Titebond III glue. Since I needed the clamps for the next tread, I removed them after 20-30 minutes. Just to be sure they wouldn't separate, I drove a finish nail at an angle at every clamp before removing it to hold as the glue fully cured. I didn't always use an angle so the tips of some nails may be 1/8th under the top surface.
The stair guy wanted $3,500 to do vinyl (including skirts). Buying premade mahogany treads were $200/ea ($2600) and Vinyl $1500 in material. So $5K - $6K for the stairs! I'm into it for under $1000.
My main mistake was not understanding and adjusting for stair riser restrictions.
A carpenter buddy said the sander company won't let me run the treads thru his sander with nails - makes sense. Also I have to build a sled to support the bullnoses and un-warp the wood as it goes thru - that'll be tricky.
His suggestion for an easy fix is to put a 1/8 feathered 2' ramp under the vinyl at the top of the stairway, or a 1/16" ramp and make a new tread 1/16th thinner tread for the top step, replacing my worst warped tread with a flat one in the process. That would bring it down to a 3/8" riser.
My wife is trying to tell me to just take 3/16 off the top 2 treads, and 1/8 off the bottom one and be done with it. Then we'd have 2 trip steps at the top (3 including the top floor) and 1 at the bottom. I don't like that; the varying angle of the stairway would be confuse the brain.
Removing all the 2x11 boards and replacing will be a task I'm very much not looking forward to, but it would be the most "professional" solution.
You are correct, I didn't realize the challenges. I'm still enjoying it, but it's a lesson!
A carpenter buddy said the sander company won't let me run the treads thru his sander with nails - makes sense. Also I have to build a sled to support the bullnoses and un-warp the wood as it goes thru - that'll be tricky.
His suggestion for an easy fix is to put a 1/8 feathered 2' ramp under the vinyl at the top of the stairway, or a 1/16" ramp and make a new tread 1/16th thinner tread for the top step, replacing my worst warped tread with a flat one in the process. That would bring it down to a 3/8" riser.
My wife is trying to tell me to just take 3/16 off the top 2 treads, and 1/8 off the bottom one and be done with it. Then we'd have 2 trip steps at the top (3 including the top floor) and 1 at the bottom. I don't like that; the varying angle of the stairway would be confuse the brain.
Replacing all the 2x11 boards would be a whole new set of challenges, but it would be the most "professional" solution. They're very secure, ugg.
I cut 1 1/4" off the front of the tread and "folded" it around to the bottom so that the grain would match.
They're glued and clamped. I used a tightly screwed in C-Clamp every 8 inches with an overspilling amount of Titebond III glue. Since I needed the clamps for the next tread, I removed them after 15-20 minutes. Just to be sure they wouldn't separate, I drove a finish nail at an angle at every clamp before removing it to hold as the glue fully cured. I didn't always use an angle so the tips of some nails may be 1/8th under the top surface.
The tread bullnoses are at least as strong as if I'd simply rounded the end of the tread, as I've seen done for many installations. The folding was purely for decorative purposes, but it did add strength. I just didn't want a visible crack to form.
My main mistake was not understanding stair riser restrictions. In hindsight, I should have had the mahogany planks reduced to 9/16 before starting. Presently they're 13/16, a full 1/4" thicker. Then the top riser would be 5/16" shorter and the bottom one only 1/16 taller, so 3/8" difference between tallest and shortest. Also I think I would have made the bullnoses only extend 1", but that's easily correctable by just cutting off the backs a bit.
The stair guy wanted $3,500 to do vinyl (including skirts). Buying treads were $200/ea ($2600). So $6K for the stairs! I figured I could do it myself for about $1,000 and my family and I could take pride in my handywork. That's panned out except for this top trip-step issue.
A carpenter buddy said the sander company won't let me run the treads thru his sander with nails - makes sense. Also I have to build a sled to support the bullnoses and un-warp the wood as it goes thru - that'll be tricky. His suggestion for an easy fix is to put a 1/8 feathered 2' ramp under the vinyl at the top of the stairway, or a 1/16" ramp and make a new tread 1/16th thinner tread for the top step, replacing my worst warped tread with a flat one in the process. That would bring it down to a 3/8" riser.
Then if I shave 1/16th off the bottom tread with a hand sander. I'd be very close to being in code. I'm honestly not too concerned about the bottom riser being 3/8 taller because it's so far away, and people coming down the stairs aren't really stepping onto a tread, it's a full landing floor. So what if it's slightly higher. It would be more of a future lawsuit technicality consern than one of actual safety for my family.
My wife is trying to tell me to just take 3/16 off the top 2 treads, and 1/8 off the bottom one and be done with it. Then we'd have 2 trip steps at the top (3 including the top floor) and 1 at the bottom. I don't like that; the varying angle of the stairway would be confuse the brain.
Removing all the 2x11 boards and replacing will be a task I'm very much not looking forward to, but it may work out. They're really in there; but the skirts aren't secured in place so they are accessible. It would definitely be the most "professional" solution. The stair guy would be earning his $3500. If I weren't unemployed now, I'd call him back.
Stair treads need to be reliably flat in service for reasons one hopes is obvious.
Make new ones. Do a better job of stock selection and processing the new ones. Quartersawn/riftsawn stock is better. Off-center grain, lots of grain runout is a no-no. This is what causes twist.
Not the place to skimp on craftsmanship.
When building stairs, get the tread stock out early and drying/acclimating somewhere there's HVAC. Keeping this stuff in a shop that isn't heated and cooled, until just before they go to the jobsite, is a recipe for disaster.
Don't install the finished treads until the HVAC is up and running wherever they're going in.
HVAC isn't an issue, we have none (So Cal beach living).
The treads have been in the garage a year, but I'll have to buy 1 more board so I'll be sure to let it sit for a few days before fabricating.
I can attest to what TaunTon just posted. I replaces the carpet covered stairs in my split entry house a couple of years ago. I used white oak treads and sycamore risers. I spent many hours aligning and jointing the boards. And yes the wood will move. For those who are daring and give sycamore a try, it will cause mental anguish and emotional distress.
Thanks. Sounds like a nice project. I'm just using painted 1/2" MDF risers. Not fancy but very stable.
It's just a tract house so I'm not going for perfection, and time is limited. I just don't want to be unsafe.
California code:
"The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch".
It doesn't care if combined riser differences exceed 3/8", so I can divide the 1/2" top step variance between 2 steps.
So, at the risk of flaunting some good advice for the sake of time:
- Replace 2 warped treads with 1/4" thinner ones for the top & bottom treads.
- Top to bottom risers: 6 3/4", 6 3/4", 7" ..., and 7 1/8" at very bottom.
- No ramp under vinyl. My wife claims it'll bug her to no end.
- If we find ourselves getting tripped up, I can replace that top tread and install a ramp upstairs.
Your house, your call. We'll all offer advice, for permission you'll have to check with the wife.
You didn't answer the question about your experience and tools. If you have a mid sized plunge router you could solve all you problems without needing to replace any of the treads. A simple sled set up could flatten the warped treads and reduce their thickness to about 1/2" or maybe 3/8" and solve your riser issues at the same time.
Sorry, I missed that question.
My tool experience is barely average homeowner level. I constructed a 200 sqft loft with no problem, and these stair treads, but I suck at fine woodworking. Don't even own a table saw; just a plunge track saw for straight line cutting.
Router: I just bought a plunge router and got a 30 minute lesson from my carpenter buddy. I routed about 20 test spots on some scrap, then did my first bullnose a few days ago. I could see a sled working if I'm stuck doing it for more than 1 or 2 treads, but wouldn't hitting nails still be a problem for the router bits?
I have an appointment with a flat-sander Tuesday ($50 for 20 minutes) so I'm thinking I'll have him reduce 2 virgin planks and make new treads, and top the others off with a 180 pass, if I figure out the sled design.
From the looks of your picture the nails are in the low point so you could easily and safely cut down the high point with a router, no great skill needed. Once you have the top flat, flip the tread over and finish reducing the thickness from the back side until you get the desire thickness probably 3/8" - 1/2" the nails are a non factor on the backside. Pretty straight forward and easy, just watch out for climb cutting when you are doing the backside against the added strip of nosing.
Just an idea rather than throwing those treads away.
In the city of Guanojuato Mexico there must be a million stairs. Somehow,miraculously , there aren't two stair treads to risers combinations that are the same anywhere in the city! Risers can vary from 6" to 9" and that can be on the same step! To a gringo such as myself that had always used stairs that meet UBC standards they can be very awkward. The locals don't seem to have any problem with them though.
Is it possible to demo the whole stairs and recut new stringers so all the math works out? It seems your going to alot of trouble ,thin treads ,fat treads,wide risers, narrow risers to try to make something work when the problem seems to be with what they are attached to. Sometimes the easiest thing to do is just scrap it and do it right from the start. What I'm thinking your doing is trying to add a finished wooden tread to a finished staircase that was designed for carpet. Is that right? Assuming that the original stairs were cut correctly, adding 3/4 " treads to each step will give you a long(tall) step on the bottom and a short step on top. Trying to cob your way to something that is acceptable seems like a lot more trouble than just building a set of stairs. I don't know how you purchased your treads but if they were sold to you as treads and a couple of them are unusable as treads it would follow that they should be returnable and replaced with usable material by the vendor.
Demoing them is not an option. I simply don't have the time, or the funds to hire someone else.
It seems nitpicking over 1/8" (over the code) for a top step. I really started this thread to ask about warping. I'm sure a lot of homes gain/lose height on the top riser when upstairs flooring is changed, or stairway flooring is changed. My goal is to be safe enough, while leaving all the center steps consistent.
Option 1: Add 1/8" ramp under the vinyl at the top of the stairs. Forgetting code, I believe that even this thin amount could cause someone to trip and send them tumbling down the stairs.
Option 2: Sand down the top tread by 1/8 or 3/16". Now the top 2 risers will be slightly shorter, but it'll meet code.
Option 3: Do both.
Option 4: Do nothing. It's so close to code that the danger probably isn't realistically something to worry about. Especially for a top step, not a midway one. I don't think it'll confuse the brain so much.
The bottom riser, 7 steps away, also seems of small concern. They're stepping onto a 5' landing. It's riser is just 3/8" taller.
Sorry, I just read the part about you having the tread material for a year.
I'm also beginning to think the warps are a non-issue. These 15lb weights straighten it out, and they're not even placed on the very edge. So it's about 12lbs to keep them straight. Between some flooring adhesive, and a few finish nails, I can't see that 15lb pull coming loose.
I can take it a step further and screw the front side too, using mahogany plugs to cover the holes. Not my preference, but I could save this for next year if I find they're coming loose. Or I can attempt dowels on the backs of the bullnoses. I already drilled holes for them.
Note; Our stairs are split-level. The upstairs flight is 38" but downstairs is 51" wide, ergo this photo is possible.
86 the warped treads and move on. Your feet pick up relatively minor variations in tread pitch. As said in other comments, a diving tread is downright dangerous.
They'll be tightly secured to the 2x11 boards, that are tightly secured to the stringers. There's just no way they'll pull away with only 15 lbs of pull.
I have a habit of overthinking things, making mountains out of molehills. My carpenter buddy who's family construction business built homes for dozens of famous people's homes just told me as much regarding this warp. 3/8" over 3' really isn't going to defeat adhesive and screws. If it's good enough for them ... It's not like the finished product will be anything but absolutely flat.
I'll see in a few years if I regret my decision. I appreciate the advice but at this point, this project has dragged on way too long.
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