Should I take back my new Bosch Jig Saw
I’m a full time woodworker and try to “upgrade” whenever I can afford to. For years I’ve made do with a Skil Jig Saw made in America. I’ve been using it for about 8 years. It’s got its problems, i.e., noise and vibration, but still useable. Just recently I received close to $100.00 for my birthday so I thought I would buy a higher end jig saw. I done a history on jig saw comments on this forum, mostly trying to see how well Bosh was liked by fellow woodworkers. I was satisfied it would be my best choice for what I was willing/could afford to spend.
So off I trudge to the nearest Bosch dealer (which happens to be Lowes) and purchased the 1587 AVSP for $138.00. When I got it home I started reading the manual and installed the blade, plastic foot plate, etc. Plugged it in pulled the trigger and grinned, and then I tested it out on some waste cherry wood. I don’t know why I waited until now to flip it over too see where it was made (That’s usually the first thing I do). My heart sank when I saw the word “China” on it.
I always try to buy American whenever I can, and only when I have no other option will I buy tools imported from China (realizing one day soon this will no longer be an option). I was upset enough to email Bosch Tools to let them know how I felt. If they’re going broke its one thing to have to get the Chinese to manufacture products for them, but since they boast of their “billion dollar” sales I can’t understand why they would jeopardize their name having it linked with China.
My question is should I take this jig saw back and get my money back and try to find an equivalent that’s still made in America or keep my old Skil jig saw and $138.00 and buy some other needed tool? Was I wrong in assuming Bosch power tools are made in America?
One other question…if I should decide to keep it are there any of you that has this model that is made in China, and could you tell me how it performs, or have there been any problems?
Thanks, Robert
Replies
Bosch started out as a German corporation and for many years their tools were made in Europe However, they, and virtually every other major tool maker, has been having their tools made in Asia for years. At this point there probably isn't a jigsaw made in the U.S. but I may be wrong, perhaps somebody else could suggest a brand.
Politics aside, tools made in Asia seem to be as well made as those made anywhere else and I have long since given up choosing my tools based on the country of manufacture.
John W.
Oh yeah they are made very well!!
Especially by people that work for hunger wages used and abused by their communist supervisors.
Nothing is farther from these people’s mind than to worry about making quality product for the world.
It is not the Chinese government’s fault that greedy money hungry American corporations manufacturing products in hell holes like china.
Full of garbage,their products are more often than not tainted with cancer causing carcinogens.
Why should politics be put aside?
It should be number one reason alongside with safety reasons.
I do not want to support any Chinese workers or the Chinese government or greedy American corporations!
They can all go to hell!
Robert: The only tools that I know, not from Asia are made in Germany and are the very expensive ones from Fein, Metabo(?) and Festool. I believe there would not be much chance of any problems of any significance with those brands if you can find the $ to buy them. Tools from China are getting better as they realize we want quality but that is not the issue with buying from them. Some stuff comes from Taiwan, which at least is mostly a democratic country. Duke
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Add Freud to the short list of European made power tools. They're made in Spain.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
The circular blades are made in Italy, aren't they?
Yes. All the carbide tools: blades, router bits, forstner bits, boring bits and shaper cutters are made in Italy as well as the steel planer and jointer knives. Steel forstners are made in Austria and power tools in Spain.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
> All the carbide tools: blades, router bits, forstner bits, boring bits and shaper cutters are made in Italy as well as the steel planer and jointer knives. Steel forstners are made in Austria and power tools in Spain <
And the fit and finish (as well as concept and design - the engineering) iare all spot on. My Freud equipment is easily the best I have ever owned and used.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Man, if you've got time to worry about that kind of crap you need to give the rest of us pros here some tips on how to run a business.
Anything less than $500 bucks is disposable tooling. Use it, don't abuse it, when it wears out (it will) buy another one.
... if you've got time to worry about that kind of crap ... If more people had paid attention about who manufactures our products over the last decades, maybe our country wouldn't be turning into a workforce of stock boys and cashiers.
Do you "worry" that your customers will choose an import over your work?
Those of you who are judging the longevity of your 9yr old Bosch tool probably have a tool not made in China.
It is very nice, and we want to see a 'Made in the USA' tag on all our tools, but reality is rearing its ugly head. From your comment about 'Made in China', I do not think you will EVER be happy with this tool, even if it cut with the accuracy of a computer controlled laser! If it makkes the slightest noise, vibration or mistake, if the switch dies after 20 years, or the cord splits, all we will hear from you is about the poor quality of this Chinese junk. Go for Fein, Festool or similar Rolls-Royce priced tools that are not made in China. As someone else noted, anything under $150 is a disposible tool. (cheaper to replace than repair).
SawdustSteve
SawdustSteve,
The difference in price between the "Rolls Royce" of jigsaws and the Bosch is not that big. I have owned both a Bosch and a Festool, and I can tell you the Festool outshines the Bosh many times over. Try cutting a 1.5"-thick circle with the Bosch, then use the Festool and you'll see what I mean!The Bosch 1591EVSK is $190 at Home Depot
The Festool Trion PSB 300 is $275 from FestoolOf course, that's a difference. But it's not much of a difference if you use your jigsaw a lot. And again, once you cut a couple of circles, you will see it's worth the extra $85.PS:
I actually think it's patriotic to buy non-American when American tools are not good enough. That's the only way American companies will ever be sparked into improving their products. If we all just buy American, regardless of quality, that just encourages mediocrity, which is a bad thing in today's economy.
Edited 9/30/2005 11:51 am ET by MatthewSchenker
I actually think it's patriotic to buy non-American when American tools are not good enough. That's the only way American companies will ever be sparked into improving their products. If we all just buy American, regardless of quality, that just encourages mediocrity, which is a bad thing in today's economy.
Yes! I agree completely.geoff
I think you will be hard pressed to find a USA jigsaw, even then it is most likely assembled some place else. I feel the same way I try and by USA goods when it is a good well made "whatever". Reality is if we did that the house would be almost empty and I would be running around naked. Went to by a Tee-shirt the other day, made in Israel, Pakistan, Malasia can't we weave some cotton and sew it up?
The only legitimate reason not to buy Asian-made is the patriotic one.
Manufacturing quality is easily specified, and any competent manufacturing unit, anywhere in the world, will be able to meet international engineering standards.
I've assessed a computer componenent (lead frame) manaufacturer, and a motocycle manaufacturer (Yamaha), both in Malaysia, and their processes are world class, easily matching the best in Silicon Valley (Solectron, say, which I've also visited) or in the case of Yamaha, the OEM in Japan.
A retailer with a brand reputation to protect will set high performance specs, and back their products with robust guarantees. Won't matter whose hands were on the machine tools and along the assembly lines.
Malcolm
Thanks for the comments and feedback, some a little "harsher" than I expected. At any rate is it too much to ask for to get several years outof a tool that is priced under 150.00. As I stated I've gotten 8 years outof the cheap Skil jig saw and it's still running. One of you mentioned I need to tell you Pro's how to run a business if that's all I've got to worry about. Well were do you want me to start...just kidding. Really I don't have the time to invest on worrying over the purchase of certain tools. But since I don't ever have enough money to buy what I really want, I check all pertinent info I can to make the wisest buy with the funds I do have. I was hoping to get some responses from those who own this tool, specifically if they had one made in China, so I could make an educated guess on how many years service I could expect to get outof this tool, if I decide to keep it. Since it cost 3-4 times more than a skil, will it last 3-4 times longer?
And what's wrong about being Patriotic when it comes to American products. It's more than just that for me. Everyday as a full time Woodworker I have to compete with an unending flood of Asian furniture. I see American Furniture manufacturers going under all the time. A lot of folks in my area lost jobs in the textile industry to jobs that went overseas. But I'm sure we all could tell our own stories...
Robert
Nothing wrong with being patriotic, Mr Ellis!
I live in New Zealand, and buy NZ made whenever I can. I'd be prepared to trade off price (but probably not quality) to buy something made locally, all else being equal. In my local government, we purchase goods and services from our home town and district by preference, and often pay a premium to do so - but that policy choice has sometimes been controversial!
The point I was making is that there's rarely a quality/Asia link. Or there shouldn't be. Especially if you buy a well-known retail brand.
There may - of course - be a price/quality link. You get what you pay for in China, just as you do in main street USA.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Hey Malcom, now tell the truth, you own a NZ made Bosch, a NZ made bandsaw, a NZ made Minimax sliding TS. Just kidding.
Americans have a hard time getting over themselves on this issue and cant see the need to decide on the intrinsic qualities first and place of mfg second. They are learning though as Mr. REllis' post points out. I say we should get on with it and identify those world machines that are good and forget their flag markings as what we want is performance and can hire translators for the manuals. My 2¢. aloha, mike
Kia Ora Mike
Here in NZ all we make is grass. Cows eat it, sheep eat it, and we sell the world the best lamb and beef you can make!
Then we spend our forex on flash foreign stuff like clothes, and cars, and machine tools, and ...
You get the message. Actually, we also make some of the best pinot noir, forest products, seafood products, skilled people and scenery in the world (among other things) ... but we don't have a big enough market to manufacture much.
So - just like you guys in the north - we buy.
Italian made, North American made , European made ... and Chinese, Malaysian, Vietnamese (even,very reluctantly, Australian) and so on, and so on ... consumer items.
You're right. We all need to begin thinking like citizens of the world. I have a son at Ohio State, a girl working in London, and one still at university in Kiwi.
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Buying poorly made or over priced products just because they are made in the USA is not patrisam (sp?). Investing in our economy is. The reason that these products are made else where is that our economy has grown beyond those products. We could certaintly make the best darned jig saw in the world if we needed to. When I spend less on tools and materials I have more cash left for capital improvements. That is good for America. If you really want to spend your money "patrioticly" buy stock in a yound promising Ameican company.
Mike
I can't buy the Hundred Dollar Savings Bond - the Chinese have bought them all up! ha ha...
Robert
that is funny yes the chinese have a big stake in the USA, keep buying offshore till the money runs, out sorry off topic. i have a bosch runs great they do have quality control
That's a racist comment and an insensitive one at that. What does some Chinese guy walking down the street in the U.S. have to do with a Bosch Jigsaw? Of what descent are you? . . . German? Sweedish French? Indian? Why don't we punch you in the nose for coming from a country that manufactures Volkswagen, Volvo, Snotty cuisine, or offshore technical support? This country was built on free trade and it's diversity. And your suggestion of violence on a specific etnicity is quite repulsive and counterproductive to the advancement of our country.
Bosch Tools are made all over the world. I haven't noticed any differences in quality of tools made in Europe over Asia. The Jigsaw we have in our school shop is going on 9 years and has performed well under much use and abuse.
Any jig saw that last 9 years in a school shop should be as strong a testimony as any. I've had mine 4 years and use it practically everyday, great tool. I especially like using it with a Collins Coping Foot when coping interior trim.
REllis ,
As for question # 1 : Should you take it back ? Does it work well , or is something wrong with it ?
# 2 : Were you wrong in assuming that it was made in the USA ? obviously yes you were wrong .
# 3 : My Bosch is maybe 15 years old don't know or care where it was made , when it wears out I would have no hesitation in buying another one .
Wether it's a Volkswagon not made in Germany or the US or Milwaukee tools made overseas , there are standards they follow using OEM parts to maintain quality control .
What ever you decide to do with this tool , make your decision based on performance , not origin only , think about it , some manufacturers make the parts here but are shipped out for final assembly and such . Wake up and smell the coffee it is a brave new world . Don't be afraid to take the first step !
Thanks for the reply. Nothing wrong with it, its brand new, just bought it a few days ago. Just a little heartbroken to see the made in China stamped on the bottom. While I was wrong to assume it was made in the USA, was I correct in believing it was a high quality tool not made in China? This was my rationale in the first place for buying it, this is what I thought I was getting when I purchased it. Like the email I sent Bosch, had I seen the China label early enough, I probably wouldn't have bought it and looked around some more or saved my money for something else.
Thanks for your input...
Robert
Hi Robert ,
" Were you correct in assuming that it was a high quality tool , not made in China " IMO you were correct in assuming that it was and is a high quality tool , assuming that it was not made in China was a bit presumptuous on your part , don't you think ? If Rolls Royce production goes to China or any other country , do you think all the sudden they would be a cheap imitation or otherwise not as good ? I understand your concerns , is the model you bought the top of the Bosch line ? If not that may be a larger concern as to the country of origin .
good luck whatever you decide
p.s. have you used it . and if so how does it perform ?
dusty
I didn't think I was being too presumptuous. Warnie just wrote he paid the same amount about a year ago and his was made in Switzerland. Is it too much to ask why can't I get the same product, one that is made in Switzerland if I'm shelling out the same dough?. Lay mine and his side by side to resell and whose will bring the most money? This is another point I hadn't brought up.
It would be nice to hear from the upper level mgr's of these companies to explain why they have to go elsewhere to get their product's manufactured. If its a matter that they're about to go under because of labor costs here in the US/Europe, or whatever, then they have my sympathy and understanding and maybe my money. But on the other hand if they post their yearly earnings way up in the Billions, that's another story...
To answer another one of your questions concerning "have I used the Jig Saw"? Not yet. I'll only need it on the average once every 1-2 weeks...but with me that's not the "whole" point. If I want a good pocket knife I'll buy a Case XX. If it has China on the blade I'll keep my money. To summarize, as long as I see high quality products quit being made here in US/Europe and show up with the China stamp (even if they're high quality) on them I will always be inclined to find an equivalent made in the USA.
Cheers, Robert
Robert: I had a similar experience buying a fancy waffle maker; Kitchen Aid's top of the line $300 unit. Like your jigsaw "made in China'' was not visible till the very bottom of the machine itself. I would have at least thought twice about it or bought something else. I thought country of origin was supposed to be on the box, clearly visible. We have less and less choice in purchases as factories move out of the U.S., as least we should be able to know before we buy. DukeKenneth Duke Masters
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Duke, I made the mistake, as I mentioned earlier, I didn't look at the country of origin until I got it home. The box itself had the "made in PRC" on it and the jig saw clearly said made in China.
Robert
My brother's company manufactures motorized wheelchairs. The company has a factory in mainland China. This is what I know about Chinese manufacturing:
Quality control is abysmal. There are a couple reasons for this:
1) The mainland Chinese culture is given to scrimping, saving and cutting corners at every step of the way. The people are frugal. For example: the factory will substitute U.S.-made precision parts with locally made knock-offs, counterfeited right down to the serial numbers if it means saving money. Even if it means the company itself is 'cheated.'
2) There is a glaring lack of education and training in Chinese workers.
It's also cheap to manufacture there. It's less expensive to send U.S. engineers over there to hold the factory's hands, walk them through the process, have them do it over several times, and ship the product here than it is to build it here the right way the first time. American workers make, what, $15-$20/hour. Chinese workers are making $1 a day. And there is enormous pressure to not mechanize the manufacturing process because it's cheaper to have five people do what one machine could do.
And in the end, your tax dollars end up paying for the $$$ Chiese-built wheelchairs via Medicare and Medicaid.
Why would you assume a German companies tools would be made in the USA.These companies are international not national.The Chinese and any other non Europeans did not make these companies move their operations overseas.This just sounds like for two many Americans a typical racist statement.Would it be OK if it was made in Europe?
BRB, the reason I assumed it was made in the US was "lack of product knowledge". I had heard somewhere, or thought I read somewhere they were made here. The reason I chose Bosch was because of the good reviews it received from the folks on this forum. Some people on this topic corrected me on the country where most Bosch tools come from, but as it turned out one of the later posters said his was 2 years old and made in the USA, so it turns out that my suspicions were at least half right. Even though in the past I've always bought Porter Cable because they made a lot of tools in Tenn; in this particular case I leaned toward the Bosch, partly because I had never tried them before and partly because I liked the way it felt, weight, looks, and lastly the way it cut when I tried it at home. But the most important factor of all was my "misguided" belief it wasn't made in China. Had I known this from the getgo I would have never have bought in the first place and this post would never have been started.
Your comment concerning "sounding like a racist" was a little harsh and I can't see how it would apply to me or any of the other posters on this particular thread. If I prefer to buy products made in the USA over "Asian" imports labels me as a racist, then so be it...
Cheers
Robert
Edited 10/1/2005 10:19 pm ET by REllis
The people who control the companies should be blamed for not putting Americans to work not the Chinese or anybody else.I wish more Americans where in the manufacturing sector but they will not be back in my life time.Blame the companies and the governments not the workers who are only trying to feed their families.I am sorry if that is not what you meant but that is the way it sounded.
Just a thought..I see people being called racist and do not understand it. Nobody said anything about the Chinese people. Product Quality and Huuman Rights were the issues. Before throwing around charges of racism, which is pretty harsh, maybe a review of the definition is in order:
Racism refers to beliefs and practices: (1) that assume inherent and significant differences exist between the genetics of various groups of human beings; (2) that assume these differences can be measured on a scale of "superior" to "inferior"; and (3) that result in the social, political and economic advantage of one group in relation to others.
Probably the more correct term for what is being described is "nationalism" and the effect is just as heinous in its reference to others not being as good. Get over it already! There are good tools out there and thats what we should be discovering-who cares who makes them in the end game. aloha, mike
I agree with you. The only point I was trying to make was that if you have an aversion to products from a place because of a repution for poor quality that does not make you a racist. If someone says they hate things made by the little green men on Mars it is a racist statement. On the other hand if they say their experience has been that gizmos made on Mars are of poor quality that is not a racist statement at all.
I guess I felt it was unfair/unreasonable to call somene a racist when there had been no evidence that to support that claim.
Maybe I am too thin skinned;)
That is a wonderful definition of mankind. It is exactly how we really are and always will be. We even look different because we are different-and it's marvellous and interesting. We are all racists in fact.What's new?Philip Marcou
Philip,
Maybe it is an American thing...being called a "racist" here is pretty severe.
By way of example, I was born in England and came to the US with my family when I was young, but I remeber there were certain words that were considered rude/obscene in one place not the other. Being a racist is a very bad thing.
The so called "patriotic" idea of purchasing only things made in your own country would, if rigidly applied, cut out world trade, increase tensions between countries and result in higher prices for everything. How would you feel if those of us who do not live in the U.S.A. refuse to buy your products because they are "made in USA?How about buying on price, design and quality and we will all benefit from the resulting competition in these areas.
Sedna
I thought this fire was about out, apparently a few more coals to stoke. I'll consider responding, but it will have to be later, on my (self imposed, self employed) lunch break and I'm working on an order that I've got way to much time on already.
Thanks,
Robert
<I'm working on an order that I've got way to much time on already.>You need to hire some cheap foreign labor......... aloha, mike
Let me do some clarifying...
I don't have anything against Chinese people, it's their products. I say more power to each one of them if they can better their lives, make more money, raise their standard of living. I realize that some of what they make is worth buying, but if given the choice, and even if I have to pay a little more, I'll opt for something made in the USA (if I can still find it). I do wish the playing field concerning trade between our country and theirs was a little more level.
Back to the jig saw. I appreciate all the responses from owners of this saw. I knew that it had a proven track record, but was this track record based on it being made in Europe? What I'm trying to get a fix on when did this Jig Saw start being made in China, has it always been made in China?. I was wanting to hear from those who actually owns the Chinese version. Maybe at this point I need to take Prowoodworker advise and keep the darn thing and get back to woodworking, which maybe not very bad advise at all.
Thanks to the responses...
Robert
Hi,
Take it back!
I paid just about the same for my Bosch jigsaw that's made in Switzerland last year. You mean to tell me things have changed so drastically in Switerland that they now make the same wage as china? Yea right!!
Take it back! Inform Bosch that you have experience nothing but trouble with china made products and prefer not to be a guinea pig, thankyaverymuch. Explain as a craftsman you aprreciatte quality and need to have confidence in your tools. The money is not an object you need quality, you need to know your tools will hold up for the long run and respond the same in 5 years as today.
You may very well get a job of a lifetime that depends upon your performance and hence the performance of your tools.
china has not yet earned the status of the rest of the worlds too makers. Makita, Toyota, Nissan had to PROVE they could be BETTER not almost as good before they got any respect.
There are certain indicators that china is on the right track but I'll let someone else spend their hard earned cash and get back to me in 5-10 years and we'll compare my Swiss jigsaw to their china jigsaw.
BTW I've returned a number of tools and upgraded once I saw the china brand.
If china wants respect they need to earn it. They haven't.
W
<you have experience nothing but trouble with china made products and prefer not to be a guinea pig, thankyaverymuch>Careful, some of my friends are Guineas. Guineas are people too..... ;-)
aloha, mike
What I failed to mention is I do own the Bosch it is over 10 years old still works great.
Since the talk has a "made in China" tone thought I would mention this. I am in the middle of a remodel tearing out some walls ect. I started in the trades as a framer but left the Senco nailgun at home so stopped at the Big Orange store grabbed the first $3 box of 16d sinkers I saw. Get back to the project and need to nail some 2x4's together, grab the 16's and say to myself "man these seem skinny". Start to nail tap tap, bend "*&%#" straighten it out tap whack, bend "crap"! Take it I use air guns most of the time so I thought to myself "maybe I'm just out of practice". Well four bent nails out of seven I picked the box up to make sure yep 16d's. Looked it over and "Made in China" stamped on the bottom. I could bent these things with my bare hands!! Later I found some REAL 16's there is no comparision, I sure hope some poor sap isn't rebuilding his home down in New Orleans thinking "these 16 penny nails form HD will hold"
Anyway yes some things are made in China to USA standards and those products are "I'm guessing" a decent product. These nails, those were crap.
Jeff
I read through all the comments, and went and looked at my saw, I have 1587AVSK, top handle. is's made in the USA, about two years old, runs like every other bosch I've used - great and my year old cordless made in switzerland, also a champ. And they didn't cost as much as a festool.
All this talk about tools under 150 being junkers is BS, buy a good tool from a good brand, and treat it well and the all can last forever.
BTW, my favaorite new tool, my makita impact driver was made in china, but I love it any way b/c it kicks azz.
I passed up a Hitachi router because of this (although my Makita does not say where it is made). I figure if I'm spending the same amount of money I'll at least spend it on something made where they don't have (political) slave labor, better QC, etc. I think all of those issues do make a difference, though I don't expect it to be USA made (or think that means higher quality per se).
REllis should be annoyed that he paid the same price for something made in China as the other guy buying the same product a year ago got it made in Switzerland.
As for ProWoodworker, apparently he doesn't have time for these trivial matters but he has time to berate those he doesn't agree with.
What a minute, someone corrected me earlier and informed me these weren't made in USA, they were only made in Switzerland. You say you bought your USA Bosch Jig Saw (same model as mine except for the letter "p" at the end) only a couple of years ago, another poster bought his Swiss model only last year, and now a year later I buy one and it's a chinese version.
?
Robert
Is this storm in a (china) tea cup now over? ;)
It's looking that way.
Robert
China: Their government is guilty of human rights abuses to the enth degree. Which begs the question why are products made in China allowed to be imported to the US? The answer, imho, is the same old story...money. All the moralizing by politicians and the fat cats goes out the window the minute a few dollars are involved.
Most of us fall into the "little people," category as the movers and shakers refer to us amongst themselves. Our only "power" is to vote with our purchases. I try very hard to avoid buying anything made in China. That is not racist, but one "little person" making a political statement.
Just my two cents;)
Their government is guilty of human rights abuses to the enth degree. HAY... do not hate me.. I don't know all the facts.. BUTI have two grand daughters from China.. Each was about 1 year old when we got them.. I went there each time with my daughter..They were well taken care of the best I could tell AND they were Girls which nobody wants there...We were treated as well as any other place on Earth I have been to ( I have traveled all my life working)Well, all I met were Customs folks and us common folks so.. all I can say those little babies were well cared for.. By almost any standard..They are my 'SWEETHEARTS!'
I think you came late to the discussion which was about the quality of tools made in China. Someone made accusations of racism..I was trying to explain that there are legitimate reasons why people might not want to buy products from china other than racism. The one you are objecting to is not opinion, but well documented fact.
I am sure you love your adopted daughters as much as anyone could; myself included if I had adopted them. After all they are individual human beings. My comments had nothing to do with the Chinese people and everything to do with their corrupt and loathsome GOVERNMENT.
My work in the software field sometimes brings me to the periphery of adoption. One of the things I learned was that if you analize what countries are the largest source of adopted children in the US China is number one followed by Korea.
Also, bear in mind the Chinese GOVERNMENT is not allowiing children to be adopted out of the goodness of their hearts. This excerpt from the US Dept of State website expains THEIR motive pretty well: "After all interviews are completed, the actual adoption and completion of the contract, which includes making a fixed "donation" of around $3000-$4000 US dollars to the Children's Welfare Institute, take place. This "donation" is NOT a bribe, but is required for the adoption and completion of contract for the institute. " It is pretty easy to read between those line;)
I wish you and your family every happiness. I am very happy for you and your daughters that you are the kind of person that actually makes a difference is this world. I think what I am trying to say is a form of Kiplings famous line..."you're a better man that I Gunga Din."
All the Best,
John
Here we go again. The accusation of racism wasn't made so much about China and cheap tools it was made because someone suggested in a post (now deleted) that it was alright to punch a chinese guy walking down the street in the nose in order to take out ones frustrations about the trade situation in China.
O.K., that's racism. I did not see that post...must have been deleted prior to my access? In any event I guess that expalins what happened:)
Also, bear in mind the Chinese GOVERNMENT is not allowing children to be adopted out of the goodness of their hearts...I agree.. I paid half of the expenses! LOL...
We handed out more money than we could carry.. AND it HAD to Be in USA Green Backs!.. Dang...No hate here.. Sorry I got carried away as usual... I hear ya' REALLY... Huggers...
If you are trying to get a US made tool you will never own another tool again in your life-that includes Craftsman. aloha, mike
If the source of manufacture (vs. how well the tool works) has you that bothered, take it back and spend the extra $20 for the 1590EVSK. It's the newer model, more powerful, better blade support, etc. At least 6 months ago it was still being made somewhere in central Europe. It IS a great saw, and one that should give you years of service (I mean if you got along as long as you did with that POS Skil - this should last a lifetime - and I only say that 'cause my Bosch replaced a Skil...)
3 Bosch tools, 3 countries of manufacture (including Mexico for the 1/4 sheet palm sander) and they are all great tools.
3 Bosch tools, 3 countries of manufacture (including Mexico for the 1/4 sheet palm sander) and they are all great tools. Right on-Bosch does the quality check why should we worry about it? aloha, mike
At the risk of wearing out this topic, please allow me to make one final comment. I took this tool back to Lowe's to see if I could be happy with a differant purchase/exchange. I first went into the store to see what else they had in the way of jigsaws. I was hoping they carried PC jigsaws that were still made in the US. They didn't have any PC's in stock, nor did they have any displays of PC (although they carried some of their other line of tools) The Milwaukee was made in Czek, and the Dewalt in Mexico. So in the end I took poster "WRUDIGER" advise and paid 29.00 more and took home the Bosch 1590EVSK made in Switzerland.
What was kindof funny about the exchange was when I brought in the "Asian" model they wanted me to take the blade out so they could resale it without risk of the next customer cutting a finger. So I tried several times to get the blade out, but couldn't, the return clerk tried but couldn't, we got the manual out to no avail. Finally we gave up and made the exchange. My wife was in another store so I left there to get another check so I could buy something else at the Lowes store (only had the one check) about 20 minutes later when I returned she was still tinkering with the blade, and I just had to laugh. She muttered something about "quick change my butt"...I guess the moral to this story has to be YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!
Thanks again for all of your inputs...
The end
Robert
Perhaps The End with a short trailer.
Consider yourself fortunate the store did not have the PC jigsaw. I have owned that POS for about six years and have not used it in at least three years. I have four other PC tools that are great -- the jigsaw is not. Country of origin is not always the issue -- good design frequently is.
Regards
Thanks...
Robert
< Country of origin is not always the issue -- good design frequently is.>Right on! Good design coupled with good performance rules all> aloha, mike
Re: "Made in the USA"I am always amused with these discussions. Since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, production has always chased cheap(er) labor. In the late 19th century, I am certain there were plenty of New Englanders who were upset about moving textile production to the southern states (where, of course, labor was cheaper).This process, like it or not, is an integral part of modern industrial capitalism. The trick, for individuals as well as national economies is to stay both astute and nimble -- so they can adapt to changing conditions and realities. I think the real genius of America has been this ability to adapt to these changes over time. Sometimes the price is high on an individual level, but so far at least, the process has worked pretty well on a societal level -- at least there aren't huge numbers of people willing to hit the street, calling for revolution.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Rob, I just hate to tell you this, but that item was most likely asembled/manufactured by any body but a Swiss.....More likely a migrant worker on sub normal wages... the debate as to whether Turkey be admitted to the European union is to a large part centred around this issue.
This may be near to the truth, but I am just teasing.Philip Marcou
Thanks Phillip, you made my heart skip a beat for a moment - just kidding! At this point I'm happy with the final outcome, the way I see it it was worth the $29.00 more to get a tool with a lot more whistles and bells, more power and a much easier blade changing system...
Robert
Robert,I just read most of this thread to date. I have a Bosch 1587 that is pretty old, from back when the model was introduced. It was made in Switzerland. I also have a DW 705 chopsaw from when they were new. Made in USA. I think these international companies often start production at a "home" factory, then move it to a farther location when the bugs are out of the production process.I also bought a 12v Bosch t-handle cordless drill (Switzerland) that was great. Later I got the 14.4 volt version made in the USA, and it was also good, but the gearbox had a fatal flaw. The older 12 volt model didn't have the flaw. Tool design and process control were the differences, IMO.One way to get products that are made closer to the corporate headquarters may be to become a first adopter of new designs.BillPS- I recently saw a new 1587 that a friend bought. The "clic" blade release was broken, right out of the box. I told him to return it. Maybe the first ones are the best ones? Don't know for sure.
Thanks Bill. I've used my new Bosch Jig Saw (Swiss model) a couple of times now and am well pleased with it's performance. No more than I use one I plan on getting many years service from it, at least I hope to...
Robert
Hello All, I am going to open a real can of worms here. Let's talk about unions in our good old US of A. And how they have negotiated deals over the last 70 or so years. Getting paid for less work, getting paid for not working, getting paid higher wages when a particular segment of the economy is dropping,, and on and on and on. Unions served a very useful purpose a hundred years ago. but they have lost their true vision in this time frame. They still have a place, when employers abuse employees., and in sweat shops, etc.
And we wonder why companies are out sourcing?
I do not have the education or ability, but I would love for someone to work out just how much union contracts have cost the American taxpayer in the last 40 years in things like cars, air fares, steel products, etc, that kind of thing. If you take offense to this, i do not mean it personally. I am talking about a higher vision. I was raised in a very religeous atmosphere, where real and honest work was rewarded with real and honest pay. Jimmy Hoffa had no clue how that worked. Nor do today's labor leaders or Jesse Jackson. And I am not racist, I am white, but many of my dearest and closest friends are black and brown, and colors in between.
I wish all a very happy night, and God Bless the entire world, not just a few of us on this continent
F E
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Edited 10/4/2005 7:37 pm ET by FastEddie1
Well how much do you think ununionized workers cost U.S. taxpayers in food stamps public healthcare, and other social programs because companies like Target, Walmart, Mcdonalds refuse to pay decent wages so workers can make a decent living. These huge corporations have a history of union busting efforts and quickly hush or fire workers attempting to organize. What did Walmart do in Ontario Canada when the workers in a store there were able to form the first union ever in a Walmart store? They fired everyone and closed up shop.
Somewhere else is probably the best place for this diversion, mate, but it is a really interesting discussion (and it does, sort of, relate to the 'made in the USA' theme).
The question of whether unionised workforces are good or bad (and for whom, and for what, and when and where) is endlessly fascinating, mostly because it's more about philosophy than social justice or dispassionate public policy or pure economic rationality.
For what it's worth - from a 'republican' who is also a social liberal - I reckon unionism has done good, and does have a place in modern Western economies. In many such economies, the nature of unionism is changing. Modern unions often emply qualified economists, are business-literate, and work cooperatively with enlightened managers and owners.
But this is a woodworking forum, right?
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
I wonder, is a being a republican the same thing in New Zealand as it is in the US?
> is a being a republican the same thing in New Zealand as it is in the US <
I don't think so, Rich. Politics is much different here - more like British than US. We have a Westminster parliamentary system, but proportional representation.
I put 'republican' in inverted commas "..." to indicate 'conservative'.
The New Zealand equivalent is the National Party, who I vote for, but don't always agree with!
Malcolm
Personnaly, I think Shakepere got it right...get rid of all the lawyers (this would take care of all 99% politicians at the same time;)
A cool method would be to have it like the jury system where everyday people are picked for the houses of government. It is hard to imagine they could do much worse than the twits that get in there now;)
I have never been a union member, nor have there ever been any union folks in my extended family. But I believe every individual has the right to negotiate the best deal they can get from their employer. And I also believe any collection of individuals should have the right to band together in a common cause -- and that could be a church, a fraternal club, or a group of employees in the same plant, industry, or profession. There's strength in numbers, and that is a fundamental fact of human existence. It seems to me the more interesting question would be how many Wal-Mart employees collect government benefits like food stamps, Medicaid, etc. because the company has found a way to shift part of their burden to taxpayers like you and me.I also think unions were fundamentally responsible for the rising tide of living standards in this country over the past 75 years. They were the ones who stood on the frontlines, battling the industrial titans, often at the expense of their own blood, who convinced the society that workers were not mere cogs in the industrial machine -- who could be paid poverty level wages with no benefits, and then spit aside when their bodies were used up. But this push for higher incomes is a delicate blancing act; wages can reach a tipping point where technological innovations (e.g. robotics) become feasible, and off-shore production is more cost effective.I don't think union leaders grasp this reality, and certainly they have been short on answers to this problem, at least from what I can see. Nonetheless, unions still set the bench marks and standards for wages in this country, and I don't think any of us wants to see America return to the kind of dog-eat-dog conditions that existed before the unions first took hold in the 1930's.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
To answer your question about how much it costs in terms of medicare, food stamps, etc., to help support employees of Walmart--I agree it would be a fascinating study, and don't doubt that it's been done somewhere by someone.
I have heard that it costs the state of Georgia about $10 million a year to provide health care coverage to children of Walmart employees.
A workers union is as good or bad as its leaders-if they are honest, suitably educated, hard working and scrupulous then good things can happen. The trouble starts when corruption and or politics get into the recipe.Is mankind decreasing his stocks of the above ingredients?Philip Marcou
F.E.: In the U.S. these days the most unionized workers are in the public workers unions; federal, state and local. Of course they know who they work for and are always doing their best to save the public money. I've been there, I know. Most of the union leadership were unabashed commies, waste at all levels was unbelievable. In the bigger picture each of these organizations (cities, municipal entities etc. and their associated unions ) are little empires, kind of like black holes, absorbing power and control at every opportunity. They work for themselves, not the public who pay the bills despite much rhetoric to the contrary. Yes unions have had their place in the past but now they are busy spreading socialism and chasing industry from the U.S. If the rust belt industries weren't hit so hard, starting in the 60's more or less, by union wage and benefit demands, there would be less rust and more jobs here. Not that the fault is entirely the unions but IMHO they were a big part of it. Low wages and poor working conditions overseas combined with the portability of modern machinery and a more and more educated (engineers etc.) foreign workforce also are major contributors. Another is web based CAD/CAM, where a drawing for a part is done in one place, sent on the internet to a machine in another place and parts are spit out or whole machines built.
There is nothing wrong with supporting the economy of your own country, I do it whenever I can but the current world situation makes this difficult. Items are made of parts from here, assembled there, designed over there, bought by those who can afford them here; its all too much.
DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
Not only would you have to get rid of the union benefits, you would also have to get American workers to work for less than a dollar an hour to compete with third world labor. Union or not, it just isn't possible to compete when the wage rates are that far apart.
John W.
It's probably about time for this thread to die. The comments have drifted in a tangent from the original post but I can't resist the opportunity to respond to your comments about unions and their "unabashed commie" leaders. If the unions and their leaders are to blame in large part for the destruction of industrial America then corporate leaders probably share as big a hand in exacerbating the situation. When the typical CEO of a Fortune 500 company earns 100's and 1000's of times more than the average worker on the assembly line I'd have to say there is quite an inequitable disparity between how much the corporate leader makes for his/her skills and time and how much the worker makes for their skills and time. I won't get into what skills are worth more but I will say I think both have their value and are not an indispensible commodity.
You say that unions once had there time and place and in the 1960's they flexed their muscle too much. Thus causing companies to look elsewhere to remain solvent. Well I think they flexed their muscle for many of the things most workers seek, an opportunity to secure employment and compensation in the present and future for serving a company loyally.
As much as the unions attempted to make demands in the 60's and 70's corporate leaders were making changes to the industrial landscape in an effort to maximize profits and cater to investor returns that weren't always benificial to this country, it's citizens or the company.
The case of Burgmaster is a classic tale of corporate negligence and shortsightedness without regard to the commodity of labor. Burgmaster was a respected machine tool company started and run by Fred Burg it had much success during the 60's when defense contracts were not so centralized and it blossomed into a very productive company employing hundreds in southern California. Success began to wain after Houdaille corporation (same company that owned Powermatic at one time) purchased the company and began to run it as a commodity investment as opposed to a production business.
To make a long story short the dissolution of the company was a painful death spanning a dozen or so years with the company being gutted, employees left to fend for themselves and America with one less company. As we have seen in the last decade Corporate greed has played just as much a role in our downfall as unions have. Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Anderson, etc. are all contemporary illustrations of how corporate leaders of this country have put their own salaries, stock options and bonus packages before the welfare of their companies.
I forgot, if you would like to read the tale of Burgmaster Company it is documented in a book by Max Holland, "From Industry to Alchemy: Burgmaster, A Machine Tool Company"
(The book was formally titled, "When the Machine Stopped: A Cautionary Tale from Industrial America".) It's a dry but good read and highlights many of the issues that have been discussed on this thread. You can read a review of the book and get a brief synopsis at the link below:http://www.beardbooks.com/from_industry_to_alchemy.html
Ted: I wasn't trying to put all the blame in any one place. You are correct that management, Wall street, unions all share some part of the downfall of American manufacturing. The nature of the worldwide economy has a lot to do with the current situation. I don't know what the answer is, not even sure what is the right question but people discussing the subject and keeping an eye on affairs has to be a good thing. DukeKenneth Duke Masters
The Bill of Rights
December 15 1791
NRA Endowment Member
LEAA Life Member
CRPA Member
< but they have lost their true vision in this time frame. They still have a place, when employers abuse employees., and in sweat shops, etc. >FastEddie, yep a real can of worms.
First, union membership is only 8% of the work force. I was trained in a union (Carpenters) and learned method the standard method as well as the prevailing highest technology of the time for building processes. 55% of all workers were unionized then.
Second, most of the current union members are people who have to commit to a career for life like teachers, airline pilots, RNs, Fire and Police workers etc and we are better off that they have these career protections built into their work structure.
Thirdly, the great majority of union members are government workers today (the aforementioned teachers)
Lastly, do you think the Walmarts treat their employees well? Thats the frontier of union organizing now and in my opinion an apt placement for the effort.Most Americans carry a big bugaboo for unionism without realising how small a force it is now. There was recently a split of the AFL and The CIO over the diminishment of its influence in the workplace. The top of the union structure is corrupt and complacent-they no longer know the street. Farm workers, retail workers and certain dangerous occupations need organizing and will likely get there. Fear not, no one will lose their job over these issues but a guarantee of fairness in dealings with increasingly large corporate structures will do wonders for bringing the necessaries of life to these workforces. aloha, mike
You aren't going to find anything at Lowe's, Home Depot or Walmart that isn't made in some third world country. If you did, that saw would be $300. We all get to vote with our checkbooks, and so many American's have voted for the less expensive goods, that most of the American manufacturers have been driven overseas.
John Kerry said it was all Bush's fault, but I am pretty certain it is just us consumers who are at fault in this.
My Bosch is the best Jigsaw I ever had. I am not sure of the model # anymore, but it has trucked along for 3-4 years now and done everything it was ever promised to do on every occasion.
Ther are no bad deals. It takes an offer and an acceptance to conclude a transaction. If you don't like/want it don't buy it!
REllis,give yourself some time shop nearby Lowe's or HD they might have that model left in stock made in America. I've done this way to collect all of the quick grip clamp that made in America, I visited 2 Lowe's and 3 HD to have the last 12 Irwin clamps that made in U.S. Last month I just bought the last Hilti screw gun SF 4000 that made in Switzerland. These tools are so valuable to me because if I lost one of them I could find it anywhere, the new model made in China.
Why spend $138 for that saw, my friend bought the jig saw at Horbor Freight for just $69.
You could return that saw and get the Bosch 1590EVSK for $169.(Made in Switzerland)has some good features.
Good luck
Tung
Thanks Tung for your advice, I posted earlier that I wound up buying the 169.00 Bosch at Lowe's and it was made in Switzerland.
Robert
<There are quite a few ways for us Americans to become super-patriotic:>
and dont forget NO Honduras mahogany, Makita chopsaws, Freud saw blades, African mahogany, Powermatic anything, General Machinery, Minimax, Laguna Tools,......and those are the small things. Lets get over "Made in USA" and get on with what works well and remind each other of the same. I came here originally looking for this information and ended up getting it elsewhere. Funny thing is so little of it has migrated to this forum-astoundingly. I am finding the "Flag" symbol on tools to be a deterrent more than an enhancement-go figure. My increased scepticism may be healthy...... aloha, mike
Yes- Take it back immediately-
Well, as someone who lost his job to offshoring, I will say that I admire your patriotism. I wish more people felt the same way. With that said, you're going to go nuts buying only products made 100% here in the U.S. Ford's are not assembled here and many of their parts are manufactured offshore as well. Toyota's and Honda's (at least the Camry and Accord) are assembled 100% in the US. Which one is the more "American" car.
I think you need to ask yourself, is there a quality 100% American alternative to X-item that will meet your needs? Then by all means, go for it. Our society and economy will better off for it. In the end, like you stated, I don't think that option will be a choice in any profession soon.
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