First time poster.
I am looking at p. 96 of Box by Box by Jim Stack from Popular Woodworking Books.
If the author specifies what wood is used for the veneer to attach to 1/2″ plywood, I never found it. It sure seems like a lot of time, especially to someone who has never attempted veneering before.
Whether or not you have the book to see exactly what I am looking at, the question is: What advantage do I gain by veneering over using a solid wood?
If I cut this from solid stock, I would need a rough board of 11″ x 36″. I have not decided what wood I would use for the case, but I believe I can find something I find attractive that wide.
Replies
There are pros and cons with both solid and veneer work. You should get yourself a couple of reference books to familiarize yourself with both processes. Briefly: solid stock will expand/contract with humidity changes..... your construction and design must conform to this fact. The box plans you mention may or may not be adaptable to substitution of solid lumber construction. Veneer is usually applied over a stable substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) thus different construction (usually simpler) can be used. But, one must take the time to apply the veneer and take precaution to not abuse it.
Veneer is readily obtained in many species at a reasonable expense. Solid lumber is not always found in anything but the most common species.
The slicing of a very exceptional log into veneer will yield many more square feet of "show" wood than will slicing the same log into lumber. Thus the process is a bit more earth friendly. (Although some will argue that point.)
sapwood,
Earth friendly? Well we could debate that but the arguements are well known enough to be boring so I won't..
I will say that the whole process of veneering takes some of the art out of wood working to me.
Art to me is the creation of something unique which has an intrinsic beauty all it's own.. Veneering amounts to more like paint by numbers.. (IMHO)
Find a board that has some unseen beauty, maybe it's the bit of a burl by that knot or a little fidleback up in the corner.. maybe it's the way the spalting lines run or simply the way the light catches the grain pattern, whatever..
Now all you have is a piece of marble.. the art is to find the "David" in that marble and do a Michelangelo on it.
Find a way to show case that unique bit. Does that make it a table or a door front? Maybe you'll do a floor or set it aside untill the inspiration strikes you..
I do know that it's no longer simply go pick out presurfaced boards and cut them to size. Which turns woodworkers from artisans to wood machinists. It's an extremely short step from there to production line wood worker..
Frenchy,Your response addressed to me expresses views that are so contrary to my own that I couldn't help but laugh. Not laughing at you, please understand, but at the absurdity of two individuals being so far out of synch with each other that they could still be on the same planet. (You are on earth, aren't you?)This thread/discussion isn't the place to continue what could easily be a huge digression from the original poster's question. So, another time. I'm sure the opportunity will arise.Have a great weekend.
sapwood,
might be a fun discussion though. ;-)
I see you are still stirring the pot my old friend...I go away for awhile and upon my return I find you seeking mischief....Well, I have to ask how did they do all the early veneer work...I don't think they went down to the store and picked up some MDF...they may have manipulated their own layered situation, but I am pretty sure they veneered on solid wood. Now that doesn't mean it is recommended these days.
I am a chicken and use a vacuum bag etc, and even then I complain...there is nothing greener then a one man shop.
See you later Frenchy
Coach B
Hi Ya Coach.
My only comment about veneer is that it removes much of the art from wood working..
Mind you I'm not saying that those who do veneer work aren't skilled craftsmen/ women. and most have vastly superior skills to mine..
So this could easily degenerate into a name calling contest. Let me say up front that I certainly respect those who choose to do veneering, yet it smacks too much of paint by numbers to ever be considered an art form..
I envy some veneer work and certainly respect the effort put into it, yet the artist who selects wood based on grain and figure holds a far higher level of respect to me.. That particular curl or figure in that location changes things from paint by numbers to original art..
Changes wood working from simple wood machining to art work..
I really can't believe the post here about veneer is not part of woodworking. Yes we can all choose to use solid wood, or choose the grain for each project. But each project might not call for the smae things.Those that don't think veneering is part of wood work don't realize what it takes to veneer. It's not just taking a piece of veneer and sticking it to a substrate. I don't know I love it when people are so closed minded that they can't except anything else.A master craftsmen employs all the skills to do anything the piece or job requires. Not just always you solid wood, which in my opinion is the cop-out.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Hello Kaleo,
Your right fineering is far more difficult than using solid wood .
As long as we know that our skill is better then theirs its OK with me.
Bernhard.
Kaleo,
I am extremely sorry that your reading comprehension precludes your ability to understand my earlier statements.. I will try again in as clear and concise manner as possible to explain my position to you..
I have no doubt as to the skill, talent, or effort required to do inlays. My only comment is with regard the measure of art. Not the degree of skill involved.. With the use of veneer, wood working changes from a possible art form to a mere craft..
I am not diminishing the skill required to be a good wood machinist. That is a honestly challenging craft worthy of merit and not to be deminished.Skillful application of veneers adds to the demands greatly, yet in my humble opinion removes the art of woodworking from that of an artisan to that of a craftsman..
Before you assume that I consider myself some sort of artist and above a mere craftsman let me state clearly that I claim neither. I have honestly seen wood working done in both manners. I attempt to do both in my own work. There is a higher calling to me when the wood transcends mere craft and approaches art but I understand and appreciate those who do carefull workmanlike woodwork.
Yours is one of the goofiest views of art that I've seen in a long time. It makes me shake my head in wonder.
sapwood,
Goofy? Well I didn't expect it to be mainstream.. One of the wonderful things about this site is the diversity of expeiance and viewpoints of the people here..
If you'd care to elaborate on your comment I'll be happy to discuss things further with you..
Sorry, frenchy, but I don't feel like mud wrestling today. I apologize for any untoward insinuations.Have a good one.
I will say this, I know that you like to stir the pot here in Knots. Which is on e reason that I no longer enjoy this forum as much as I use to.There is no need to insult people. But I think you have it backwards. Anyone can work in solid timber. There is not great mystery to it. But not everyone can use veneers. If you like that think that work in solid is the mark of a true master and a person that uses veneers is merely a craft maker , then I guess we differ in opinion. A true master know and employs all types of work. You use the word purist like it means something to you. So are you going to tell me that the old masters wouldn't use the modern machinary that we have. And if you look back to any period of furniture, they all used veneers and inlays.Kaleohttp://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Edited 7/3/2007 6:20 pm by Kaleo
Kaleo,
Tell us more.
I'm truly sorry that you don't visit us more. It seems to me from your post that you have much to offer. I have often wondered why many of the former folks no longer visit here.
Bored?
Perhaps you could help us expand our knowledge by sharing your wisdom.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/3/2007 8:59 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Kaleo.
If You feel slighted I apologize.. I'd hoped I had carefully explained my respect for those who do veneer work.
I also said that it was my opinion.. your opinon may differ, close cover before striking, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, etc....
I also said no such thing, "work in solid is the mark of a true master...." What I said was there is true art in using wood in a way that brings out it's full beauty.
There are some extremely talented people who steam bend or laminate wood to achieve great things. In no way does that minimise their talent or skill.. Frankly, I can't see where that is an insult..
To go beyond the craft or skill of woodworking into the rhelm of art requires more.. It requires creativeness and vision that few have (And I'm not claiming that I do either)
Let me try to give a tiny example of what I'm speaking about.. I was guest at some menonite's home. They appreciate simple unadorned work. yet that does not preclude skill or talent or in this case true art..
It was a rocking chair built somewhat along the lines of a windsor chair. what caught my eye at first was the arm rests had a nice curl under before they went down to the seat. Looking carefully I realized that both arm rests were similar but slightly differant and made from one piece of wood.. (that is each arm rest was it's own piece not a mirror image or the other half of a piece of wood but two seperate branches with a tight curl leading to 90 degree bend.
Yes the rockers were made from branches that had the same curl in the grain. As did the back etc.. Another words the whole chair was made from wood in a as found condition. Sort of the modern verson of Michelangelo who saw "David" in the block of marble and simple removed everything that wasn't "David".
As to my use of the word purist, I do pleed guilty.
I hold great value to the original and "pure" In the same way that I cannot respect cheap imports from asia that immitate original Chippendales. I feel that some items made here are less than the originals they were patterned after.
Again I'll try to give a tiny example..
If I were to make a copy of an orginal Chippendale piece using the very best of my skill and ability, even if it's exactly as made orginally it is inferior to the original..
I may be bursting with pride at my creation yet I did not originate it, I merely copied it.. to that degree I am a purist.
Hello Frechy,Its a shame that you feel the need to rub the poeple the wrong way ?On the other hand why not.Do you actualy make things with wood?Greetings from down under Bernhard.
chairmannz,
Need? or could it be a legitimate differance of opinion? That's allowed you know.. the world would be a pretty boring place if we all thought alike and acted alike.
To answer your question if you'd go into the archieves you'll see some of my work.. I think 34866.5 and 34866.1
there are more over at breaktime..
Hi frenchy,
You attitude toward veneering, strikes me as similar to that of the sculptor who doesn't regard portrait painting as art.
Veneering got a bad rap from the poorly designed mass produced stuff that poured out of factories in the 40' and 50's. Also from period pieces, laid up with hide glue, that had been mistreated.
The move from solid wood construction of the Chippendale and earlier periods, to the use of highly figured veneered surfaces in the Hepplewhite and Federal periods, reflected a change in taste. The desire was for lighter, airier designs, and more toward broad, uninterrupted surfaces that were still visually interesting. Veneering was a solution to the problem of building doors, for instance, that showed no frames or panels. A veneered "lumbercore" door, curved to fit the opening in a sideboard, is dimensionally stable, a distinct advantage over a plank door carved from solid crotch wood. The advantage of getting more square footage from a desireable figured piece of wood has already been pointed out, as well as the option of multiple book or slip matches, not available if using solid wood.
Veneering is simply another page from the complete woodworkers workbook; to ignore its possibilities and advantages, is akin to saying that carving isn't real woodworking, or that loose tenons aren't real joinery. Will you eschew steam bending, or lamination, and strictly bandsaw your curves, because that's the way real woodworkers do it?
Ray
joinerswork,
I'll skip around a bit in responding if you don't mind..
Steam bending or lamination? Fine, solid, and nothing wrong with it,, for some.. done properly it displays real craft. most likely skill above my level..
However another approach would be to use a piece of wood with the right curve already in it.. then if you need to remove wood to make it fit, work or look good the grain follows the line and there is a certain elegence that can't be dupilcated with any of the above methods..
The differance in my humble opinion is that doing it that way has an element of art to it that forcing wood simply doesn't have..
Loose tenions aren't real joinery? Well I've done my share but the purist in me tells me I'm cheating.. Now that's not skill or craft or art.. it's just a stubborn refusal to accept some things.. How far from loose tenions is bisquits? and once we accept bisquits what else? See the slipery slope I stand on?
I'll be honest and admit I've done them all. In certain locations that's what works or all that's needed.. I'm less than perfect myself...
Let me state that my humble opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it,, exactly nothing.. and should be taken as such.. But it's a fun debate..
Hello coachB,Yes solid wood with a nice pattern in it, used at the right place is very nice. But !
When the timber is very hard to get its against al conservation principles . when we then make fineer out of it and glue it to a solid panel(s) its better utilised and more people can enjoy it.
I am doing a job 2 cabinets ,1 desk and 1 table al fineerd mostly over solid timber.
The skill level required for this is much higher than only solid timber, like fineering around corners under 45 degrees is not that easy.
But other wise increasing your skill is always good.
Greetings Bernhard
that's why we are spoiled and lovin it
chairmannz
I buy wood from a sawmill. Wood with character is considered a defect and it's sold for less than straight grained wood,, however by the time it's sold to wood workers or cabinet shops.. that piece of cheap wood has had 300 price increases..
I've got 917 bd.ft of white oak that is all burl.. that plus 9 posts 10 feet long6x6.
They got a tree in that was all burl.. the biggest white oak tree I've seen in decades. So big their 54 inch blade could only nibble at the edges..
After making a few cuts they decided that with all that "defect" they were simply going to dispose of it.. feeling that it didn't merit the cost of cutting..
They's actually taken it off the carriage and tossed it in the discard pile when I saw it..
I induced them to put it back on the carriage and turn it into boards for me. I had to offer 40 cents per bd.ft for it (the price at the time of straight grain FAS white oak)
When the Johnson brothers bought this sawmill from it's former owner he'd squirreled away all sorts of really unique wood because nobody wanted it.. He just found it too interesting to discard. Connie Johnson burned and dumped it all trying to gain back the space.
Make friends with a sawmill operator. Tell them you are looking for wood with character not straight grained boring wood. Bring them coffe and donauts a few times and take some stuff that you might not be all that excited about.. I promise you that you will get more interesting wood than you can use..
There is no shortage of interesting wood out there,, there is a shortage of people willing to select it out and use it!
Hello Frenchy,Great to hear from you.
Unfortunately for me there are no saw mills close by. 200 miles minimum.
And the are only interested cutting timber for building houses.
there is one good timber trader that lets me go through his timber to get what I want, and that is good for me.
What type of furniture do you make.
I am a chair and fine furniture maker, I make manly for other cabinetmaker the things they can not make. They know that I can.
I do not know where you live? do you have the same problem with cheap Asian imported furniture? In the last 2 years about 60% of cabinetmakers have closed down here in New Zealand.
Cheerio Bernhard.
Chairmannz
I can't comment about New Zealand, only America. Here there are literaly thousands of sawmills all over.. some are Farmers with little chainsaw mills or homemade tractor conversions, most are variations of Woodmisers while only a few are large enough to use regular circular saw with big blades..
I live in Minnesota where hardwood trees are more common than people..
From what I've seen about New Zealand it's fairly heavily forested.. are you sure there isn't a nearby farmer/rancher with something to make logs into boards? I wouldn't spend any time with a sawmill dedicated to turning trees into houses .. volume is the deciding point between profit and loss to those guys.. the small operator is the place to go..
Cheap labor is one thing, so don't be cheap, be great! Don't try to make the same bit over and over again while the market forces you to accept less and less.. Be creative and original! That's the approach that gets the high end customers willing and able to pay a premium for your efforts..
Redwoodie,
In addition to the virtues of stable substrate and much wider availability of beautiful woods, veneer also has an advantage in more easily being assembled into attractive geometric or organic patterns. You can form game boards, geometric patterns like book-matching or radial matching, or get into marquetry to create organic images like birds and flowers. The skills you learn in making a relatively simple box without these techniques can be a basis for more complex patterns in future projects.
Basic veneering of small panels is not difficult and doesn't require expensive special equipment. Just a good number of clamps. The other poster's recommendations are excellent. Find some reference books and read up. One book that I really like is "The Marquetry Course" by Jack Metcalfe and John Apps. It covers both the basics and some of the more advanced topics.
A good reference site for veneers is the site for B&B Rare Woods. http://www.wood-veneers.com/ There are lots of photos of veneers and also an excellent gallery of customer projects.
Good luck, Tom.
The advantage of fineering over solid wood is to make it look better than it is.
I am making at this moment one display cabinet in motheled Kauri fineer, motheled kauri is not available in solid timber I use solid kauri for the cabinet with ply top and bottom for stability ( solid could work to much) and I fineer over all out side surfaces.
So when you look at it it will look like solid motheled kauri, but when you look closely to the edges where the glass is pushed against it is not fineerd but still has the colour from the kauri.
Kauri is an native timber of New Zealand where I live.
I use hide glue it is easy to use and when you have a mistake it is easy to correct.
Hope this is what you are looking for.
Have fun Bernhard
An advantage of veneering is you can make a small supply of wood go a long way. It may be less costly if the veneer is a high dollar item. I assume you are talking about the paper thin veneers commercially sold. I have not attempted to use those. I am interesting in taking the few boards I might have that are "interesting" and slicing them into 1/8" or so thick boards and veneering them onto a substrate. You have slip-match or book-match options as well. These veneers are easy to work with (don't have t worry about sanding through or damage in ordinary use as much).
See joewoodworker.com for more information.
Greg
•••••••
Exo 35:30-35
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled