Interested in buying a plane for cleaning up tenons sawed with both hand and power saws.
Lie Nielsen lists 3 shoulder planes, plus a Rabbit block plane and skew block plane. Lee Valley under Rabbet planes lists 7 of them, with the medium and large shoulder planes plus a bullnose looking most like LN’s offerings.
I dont enjoy flea markets and am leary of buying online via Ebay. Dont know of any used tool dealers in San Francisco Bay area where one can go touch and feel before buying.
Teacher let me try his LN skew block plane today and it was impressive. I wonder about the rabbet block. The large shoulder planes seem very awkward, but havent used one. No ones making a quality version of Garrett Hack’s apparent favorite Stanley 93.
What are folks using? Opinions wanted
Thanks
Tom R
Replies
I own the medium LV shoulder plane and love it. Fit and Finish are typical Veritas (excellent) price was right, and the customer service to go along with it is world class.
It is my 2nd most reached for plane behind my LA block.
Many opinions exist, but I think you'll be very, very hard pressed to find one that doesn't like the LV. key is finding the plane that fits your hand.
G'luck
I, too, have the Lee Valley/Veritas medium shoulder plane. It's a nice tool, but it would be nice to have one with a removeable nose piece that would also allow it to function as a true chisel plane.
Not a complaint about the LV/V; I'm making a wood-bodied chisel to fill yet another hole in the hand plane arsenal.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 6/30/2006 10:49 pm by jazzdogg
I have the LV medium and have no complaints. Good value vs the LN, although I have tried the LN and would get it if money was no object.
I don't use them and can't recommend them. I under cut my shoulders with a chisel. I think this makes a much nicer joint as the thin edge deforms when the joint is clamped or drawbored.
I think some guys use these for tenon cheeks, and not shoulders. Can't recommend that either. Paring tenon cheeks is always a loosing proposition since you are inevitably causing some misalignment between stile and rail.
Woodworkers need to be able to saw to a line regardless of whether they plug in their saws or not. If you can't do that, I think its time to go back and fix that problem before looking for a crutch tool. As crutch tools go, I wouldn't recommend that shoulder plane. A wide chisel allows you to take off what and where you need.
Despite that fact that these tools are beautiful and work well, they do a job no one should have to do. They also do a job you could do just as well or better with a chisel. So I say skip it that slippery slope and save your money for something you really need.
Adam
Hi Adam,
With the ability to fine-tune the blade side-to-side, I find myself using mine for lots of other purposes - I recently used one to straighten the fence on a shooting board and it worked great.
You are correct when you say that a practiced woodworker should be able to craft accurate tenons and dovetails right off of the saw. But there's more to life than perfect conditions, and having tools that can be used in numerous situations is just plain convenient. Besides, I think I'd find it difficult to see the wood with my nose stuck up in the air; my bifocals just won't work under those conditions.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 6/30/2006 10:51 pm by jazzdogg
Leave out the nose stuck up in the air and the "perfect conditions" BS. We're not talking about brain surgery guys. Don't believe for one minute that David Charlesworth has an ounce of trouble with hand saws.Sawing to a line is a simple and basic woodworking skill lots of woodworkers get away with not learning. That's fine up to the point where they are spending money on gadgets and getting frustrated because they are what....afraid?, unwilling?, too impatient? to actually develop SKILL. God forbid any American woodworker buy a tool with which he cannot immediately have complete success and proficiency. So lets cut the bull and the excuses. Get out your saw, spend an hour learning to sharpen it and the extra 20 minutes learning to use it. If after a half hour you simply cannot saw to a line, write me. If you don't have a decent saw, burn a path to Mike Wenz' door before he figures out that there are easier ways to make money and quits sawmaking!Just in case you missed my point (none of this is really directed at you Jazzdogg), sawing is a BASIC woodworking skill. It doesn't take a 7 year apprenticeship to learn. Using the simple "saw the corners out" technique, you should be able to saw to a line in 20 minutes. In a few months you'll be comfortable enough with your saws to saw just about anything.If you've had recently had success learning to saw, please photograph that first board that shows your progress and post it here so guys can see this isn't magic.ThanksAdam
Adam,Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Just in case you missed my point...sawing is a BASIC woodworking skill. It doesn't take a 7 year apprenticeship to learn...you should be able to saw to a line in 20 minutes...
This brings up some of my favorite memories. Well, at the time I didn't think the experiences would become dear to me, but time has a way of changing one's perspective.
I remember when I was young, my grandfather, my brother and I went to build, what else, a birdhouse. My grandfather had me saw a couple small boards into narrow pieces while my older brother was also cutting boards. The pieces I cut as far as I know went into the burn barrel while the ones my brother cut-up were actually used.
I didn't understand at the time what I did was more than just busy work--something to keep the child occupied. It was practice. And there was more practice following that.
Skip ahead to Jr. High School shop class. I think our class spent part of one quarter doing nothing put marking out, sawing to lines, using chisels to pare and trying to assemble a small box with box joints. Because of my earlier experiences, and that of a couple other kids, we didn't have too much trouble. We became the class helpers. By the end of that quarter, everyone could bang out acceptable boxes.
I still go out to the shop at times, mark up the end of a board and just cut to the lines. Sometimes I see if I can rip an 1/16" strip or less off the side of a board with a joinery saw or an 1/8" strip for a foot with a non-backed saw and look to see how even it is. I think that is a good excercise too. The reason? Because if the saw is tilted--which is easy to do on the strip side due to a lack of support--one will cut back into the board. Plus, as the strip is thin, if the saw is tilted into the board, the saw will run out the side.
Well, not enough coffee this morning. I will leave y'all with the admonition to just practice sawing. Just for the fun of it.
Take care, Mike
Oh..I wanted to add that I have two shoulder planes. Like Derek, I love my old large infill. I also have that little infill of LN's. I probably use it most as I often build smaller work, such as display cases and what not.
But I mostly use them for fine tuning rebates and dado bottoms. Heck, I've been known to use the large one on my shooting board just because it was handy and I was in a hurry.
In particular, the small LN infill shoulder plane is used a lot for tuning glass rebates on doors of the small display cabinets.
Ok. Off to make coffee...Mike
Your experiences are not unlike mine. To this day, before I cut DTs or a tenon, I take a piece of scrap, and mark half a dozen lines, then cut to them- like warming up before playing in the band...GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 7/2/2006 10:55 am ET by Glaucon
Hi Adam,
I have no dificulty sawing dovetails or tenons - a little practice helps a lot.
What I do have a great deal of difficulty with, despite decades of practice, is folks with a holier than thou attitude and the deportment of a bull in a china shop; have you been taking lessons in hubris?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/1/2006 11:33 am by jazzdogg
I defaulted on my student loans, so I got thrown out of hubris class!-I understand what you are saying. I understand how I sound, but for me, its a catch 22. See if you can appreciate this: I'm not running for office. I don't think people here give a crap about my inner child. They just want their woodworking questions answered. I can be modest and agreeable as many here do. But does that inevitably best serve the original poster? We talk about what makes a good tool review. But don't you think we should talk about what makes a good woodworking forum? So I'm just calling it like I see it, fully recognizing doing so may make me look like a horse's backside. I just don't care about that- or said diffferently, I don't feel I have a choice. I'm just trying to make my point as clearly as possible. Don't assume for an instant that I think I'm right. Or that I think my way is the only way. I'm just presenting my side of the discussion because no one else will. Its up to you to tell the OP where I'm wrong and why your way is better etc. In my mind that exchange of ideas is what makes a great woodworking forum.Adam
Hi Adam,
If you keep talking like that - calmly, rationally, thoughtfully - you're far more likely to be seen as credible and worth listening to, IMHO.
There are far too many people in the world who are grossly indifferent to civility for me to voluntarily engage in conversation with more of them here. Granted, on the continuum of interpersonal behavior you're relatively benign. However, one of the things that I find glaringly wrong with contemporary society is the willingness of some to justify doing the "wrong" things for the "right" reasons.
Following the death of my wife, I made it my goal to live as deliberately and consciously as possible; steering around those who express themselves in ways that I perceive as unnecessarily hostile, abrasive, confrontational, negative, unethical, etc.; life is far too short for me to spend time with poison personalities.
Nothing personal, just my POV,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
JD,Well said."Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain:
Temptation shall not come in this kind again.
The last temptation is the greatest treason
To do the right deed for the wrong reason."I doubt that you will have much luck in getting others to modify their behavior... but it is hard to argue against civility (not that difficulty has kept some from trying...)Best,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I vote we talk about woodworking. Anyone? Anyone at all? I'm going back to work. (I'm finishing hand made cherry kitchen cabinets today.) Somebody give me a shout when we start talking woodworking again.Adam
Hurry back.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Adam, no need to slope off, so hurry back. Sometimes a little peripheral nonsense helps to stimulate further discussion in the desired direction- that's why even though I may post long winded posts at times ,fairly often sprinkled with forms of levity, there is usually a woodwork content of some sort included.
Derek: the HNT plane that can take bevel reversing-what happens at the front? I mean when it is bevel up there is a huge gap, bigger than accepted for end grain shearing-they are not adjustable are they?Philip Marcou
Not Derek, of course.
But my feeling is that a scraper by its nature doesn't need a small mouth--just the opposite, really, considering the type of chip failure. It would clog.
Really a beautiful plane. I love the Gordon look.
Take care, Mike
Mike, I was thinking of it when in bevel up mode-the gap would be big. I am dwelling on this because the plan to make a smallish smoother with blade reversible is cooking away in my mind. If the blade is to be on the thick side(desirable)then there will be quite a gap when it is in bevel up-which is o.k for end gran work but not so great for smoothing work-unless there is adjustability.
Edited 7/1/2006 11:13 pm by philip
Hi Philip,
Well, in BU-mode, it would be a scraper and the performance/finish should be the same. Which, to me, would be the reason for swaping the blade around, that is to emulate a scraper.
A scraper's type of chip formation and failure is throat-independent, at least in a wide-open sense. With a scraper what is to be avoided is a too-closed mouth aperture.
Really. So I think having an adjustable mouth is great for when it is in BD-mode. That way it can be set for rank or fine shavings. But one would need to fully open the mouth when in BU-mode.
We are possibly saying the same thing? In any case, I cannot wait to see what you have in the wings!
Take care, Mike
Mike , one of us has got it back to front-visualise the throat required for b/u-even a narrow slit will allow projection, but for b/d there has to be at least a slit(throat) the thickness of the blade-so for a reversible that is the minimum which= huge when in b/u mode.
I think it should be a scraper in beveldown mode-but I have been visualising a high angle bed.
Must awaynow-surely you should be asleep over there?
Philip Marcou
Edited 7/2/2006 12:03 am by philip
I think Derek's pictures work well for illustration--thanks Derek!
In my thinking, if there was an adjustable mouth, it only serves the BD configuration and it would be the bedding angle = effective cutting angle. The mouth, if adjustable at that point serves for rank/fine cuts.
BD is also the lowest possible effective cutting angle unless the bedding itself is adjustable ala BCT's latest and greatest plane.
In BU configuration, the mouth can be as far open as one needs/want, but if it is adjustable it cannot be moved to the rear-most point else the chips fold upon themselves and clog the throat--the assumption being the mouth, if adjustable, can close past the leading edge when in BD mode.
As a scraper, assuming the bedding angle cannot change, is the higest possible effective cutting angle the plane is capable of. In the case of a fixed-bed Gordon, it is 90 degrees with a 30 degree bevel.
And nope. I never sleep <g>. Ah, it's near midnight here and I am off.
Take care, Mike
Derek: the HNT plane that can take bevel reversing-what happens at the front? I mean when it is bevel up there is a huge gap, bigger than accepted for end grain shearing-they are not adjustable are they?
Hi Philip
The beds of the Gordon planes are all, with the exception of the Jack, 60 degrees. So a 30 degree bevel blade will end up in a vertical mode. In scraping mode, the mouth opens up very wide. This is normal for scraper planes. In fact, my Stanley #112 has an enormous mouth, and this becomes ever larger as the blade is tilted forwards.
The effect of a wide mouth is nil since above a cutting angle of 60-65 degrees it ceases to be a factor in taming tearout, which I know you know. Therefore it is unnecessary to close up the wide mouth of a scraper plane.
A picture tells a thousand words. Here are pictures of the HNT Gordon shoulder plane in both bevel down (normal planing) and bevel up (scraping) modes.
View Image
My idea for a convertible BD/BU plane is to begin with a bed of 37 degrees. In BD mode, using a bevel of 25 degrees, this will allow for a clearance angle of 12 degrees. This is safe (and the same as the current block and bench BU planes on the market from LN and LV). Reversing the blade on the convertible to lie in BU mode, the cutting angle will be 62 degrees. This format will yield a plane using a single blade that can switch between a 37 degree (low angle) setting and a 62 degree (high angle) setting. For the BU mode it will require an adjustable mouth. Dammit, If I say I will build this one next weekend, it will force me into action.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 7/2/2006 1:47 am ET by derekcohen
Thanks Derek and Mike. The wheels are turning: why don't I do a smallish smoother high angle bed interchangeable between bevel up or down?Bronze sole?Philip Marcou
Edited 7/2/2006 5:33 am by philip
The wheels are turning: why don't I do a smallish smoother high angle bed interchangeable between bevel up or down?Bronze sole?
Geez Philip - check your old emails from me! o/
Regards from Perth
Derek :>)
Ugh, man, I have been known to talk in riddles.Also the wheels are only just turning these days.
How about this:- I am soon to make a plane as described -what do the assembled legions of woodworms think?Philip Marcou
I think this has recently been done by Karl Holtey? 60 degree smoother.
The Gordon planes are great!
My opinion on the shoulder plane question is;
The large L-N or equivalent will do everything. Agree with Garrett on every point.
The low angle rebate block plane gets used a lot in this workshop.
I am not fond of the skew rebate. IMHO this plane has a significant design flaw. The front sole flexes when used on hardwood and it is very difficult to get a consistent thickness shaving. This flaw could easily be designed out. Now that would be really exciting!
Sorry Adam, my handsawing really is not great! {I am trying to practice, honest, but somehow have never quite cracked it.} Clearly needing many of Mike's beautiful saws
But....All shoulders here are undercut (One degree or so) and finished with a paring chisel, mostly small furniture in hardwoods. The slight undercut is a great way of getting a perfect fit of shoulders, beginners/students love this!
David Charlesworth
Hi David, Thanks for your comments and thanks for bringing the thread back to first question. Ive learned a lot reading all this and figured out some of my nomenclature and use issues a bit. Dawns on me somewhere thru the weekend that the dimensions of the 20 tenons Im trying to trim are er, uh, relevant.
Im making two Shaker style side stands from the "Thomas Moser's Measured Shop Drawings" book (pp 270-272). 12 of the 20 tenons (sides and backs) have 1/4" shoulders, and are 3/4" long by 4" wide (tall).
Derek's and other's recomendations to use a shoulder plane on the shoulders and something else - rabbet block, etc. for the cheeks made sense as I was thinking of tenons as a general thing and imagining cheek lengths that exceeded most shoulder plane widths. Given the dimensions of the tenons Im actually working on it would seem either the 3/4" or 1 1/4" shoulder planes cover the surfaces quite well - no need to take and try to blend multiple passes on longer cheeks.
Course maybe Im missing some other point about differences of shoulder/cheek grain vis a vis these plane types?
Tom
Tom,
The LN large and bronze shoulder planes, as well as the skew blocks are in my plane inventory. Both of the LN shoulder planes work quite well. The skew blocks also work very well, but for things other than trimming tenons or shoulders.
The tiny Clifton 400 is also a member of my plane family, and it is really useful for trimming all manner of small, detail work. I'm looking at picking up the Clifton 11/16th medium shoulder plane, as I like its size (about 6 inches long). You might want to take a look at the Clifton shoulder planes, as well.
Hope this is of some use.
James
Interested in buying a plane for cleaning up tenons sawed with both hand and power saws.
Hi Tom
As Adam indicates, it is possible to create good joints without specialized planes. For the past few weekends I have been building a large number of frames, door jambs, and shelves at my wife's new office/warehouse and only had a tenon saw, a couple of bevel edge chisels, a claw hammer, and a Stanley #4. The only power tool I had was a cordless drill. I later added a Stanley #93 shoulder plane. I cut a fair number of mortice & tenon joints, lap joints, etc. All my specialized planes, etc were left at home in my workshop. I did miss them but got by just fine.
On the other hand, this is just a hobby for me and when I build furniture in my home workshop I enjoy using the right tool as the occasion arises. So I have them all (or mostly :) ). In other words, it is not about what you can do without, but what you can use to do. I did complete a review of the LV Medium Shoulder plane (originally for a tool review website; link below is to my collection). In this I looked at the family of hand planes that may be used in shaping tenons, and this may be useful since I included the #140 (I have the Stanley), and later contrasted the LV Medium with the Stanley #92 and the HNT Gordon 3/4". This article does not include the LN planes, which you cite, but it should give you an idea what to look for with that range.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVShoulder/index.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 6/29/2006 11:22 pm ET by derekcohen
Thanks to you all for replying.
Adam I think I appreciate what you are trying to say but as a new guy still learning to cut a straight line with a handsaw and working through several possibilities of saw style and layout techniques (on dovetails) Im not at all confident in my ability to saw a clean straight tenon at this point. And I'm in the middle of a project requiring 20 of them! This project is happening at a local community college this summer. We've been taught to establish the base cuts with dado blades on the table saw. As these blades are a bit abused, the finish of the cut surfaces are pretty rough. Its here where the teacher loaned me his LN 140 to clean up a tenon cheek and I was impressed with the result.
I am confused though about the next step and Derek, Your review has added to that a bit. In that article you make a distinction between the tool used to cut the cheeks and the shoulder. I checked the FWW archives and found others who make the same distinction.
But in Chris Gouchner's recent review of Shoulder planes in FWW he said:
"Shoulder planes excel at fitting tenon cheeks (top left), tuning shoulders (bottom left), and cleaning up trim (below). These tools cut cross-grain, long-grain, and end-grain wood."
He also wrote, " the shoulder plane’s purpose is to refine and perfect existing joinery. I use it to trim the cheeks of a tenon so that the joint has a pistonlike fit; to pare a tenon’s end-grain shoulders to make an invisible glue joint;".
You will be pleased I suspect with the fact that he also chose the Lee Veritas medium shoulder plane to do all this.
Comments?
Tom
Hi Tom
I understand where your confusion comes from - some advocate using a shoulder plane to plane tenon faces as well. The fact is that they can be used for this - hell, anything can (I have even used a #4 when nothing else was available) - but they are the wrong tool for the job. Basically, a shoulder plane is too narrow. Some might argue that a skew-bladed plane is best since you are planing across the grain, but one can just as happily use a plane like the LN block rabbet plane (I plan to buy one of these one of these days). It may leave a slightly rougher finish than a skew bladed plane, but no one is going to see this inside the joint. In a similar vein, one could use a wide shoulder plane. 3/4" will not hack it here. I have and use a 1 1/4" Infill (which is, incidentally, my favourite shoulder plane for a combination of aesthetics, old world charm, and ability to take a fine shaving). The downside of a wide shoulder plane like this is that it is heavier and less wieldy. If you are able, get one plane for shoulders (3/4" wide is enough) and another for tenon faces.
I hope this helps and does not confuse even more.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 6/30/2006 1:19 am ET by derekcohen
Indeed it does. Thank you.
Tom
Tom,A few of us, well at least Derek and I, have had this conversation before. (I don't think knots is yet a premiere ww discussion group). In those discussions, the issue of a shoulder plane's value is actually deeper and more complicated.In an attempt to summarize, what I can say is that the fit "requirements" of a mortise and tenon joint are pretty subjective or at least not universally agreed upon. The use of a plane to "clean up" cheeks especially, effects the overall fit, and very likely the glue used. When the glue conversation comes up, there's often no agreement about what a m&t is supposed to do structurally.This is the sort of subject that many woodworkers, including most or all ww authors, gloss over. In my prejudiced thinking that's "Woodworking Lite" (that should be a new magazine- tools would be reviewed based on their color).What I want you to know is this is a complicated subject about which there is much to learn. In my opinion, this isn't a decision to make based on user reviews. Like many other things in woodworking, you have to look deeper at the larger suite of tools used, how the users use these tools and what sort of joint they make with them before anyone's advice (especially mine) can be useful.Adam
P.S. Street skirmishes were fought in London over this joint in the 16th and 17th centuries. That there are disagreements or strongly held beliefs should not be surprising. We are our Grandfather's children afterall.
Tom2,This debate comes up fairly often, and as you can see, there is a wide variety of feelings about this.My own take: I use the LV medium shoulder plane. I find it to be well made and well finished. It is certainly true that the closer you saw to the line, the less planing that will be required. I find the view that "real WWrs don't need a shoulder plane" to be narrow and pedantic. A plane is, IMHO, nothing more and nothing less than a jig that holds a chisel. If someone wants to use the chisel without the jig, fine. Shoulder planes have been around for a long time and have been made by many firms- the size of the market argues against a "boutique" indication- apparently many WWrs seem to buy them.This is what Garrett Hack, author of "The Book" (p. 146 ff.) has to say about the subject:"Shoulder planes are among my favorite planes. They are some of the most beautiful shop tools ever produced... I use various sizes for truing the shoulder of a tenon or rabbet... but they work equally well whenever I need to make fine and precise adjustments of a part and require a rabbet mouth... The beauty of these tools is that they can cut the thinnest of shavings in fitting a joint. Don't think of them as limited to cutting shoulders, though."I don't think of Hack as a "collector" but as a pretty fair craftsman. As you read these posts, you will inevitably encounter advice from those who will tell you that they routinely produce Queen Anne highboys in tiger maple with nothing more than a flint shingle froe and a set of bronze age chisels. Take such declamations with a grain of salt. I think that a decent shoulder plane, a #5 jack, a low angle block plane, and a well tuned cabinet scraper covers the basics. You can add a finisher and a jointer as options, and others will pitch different choices. For my money, these tools make it possible to easily and reproducibly get good results with a modest investment. Seems like common sense to me.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I agree with a lot of what Glaucon says except his conclusion! The reality is, very few woodworkers work entirely with hand tools. I am one of those sick few!
In my mind this is one of those "devil's in the details" or "rubber hits the road" issues. Instead of being confrontational or accusatory (this is not a response to anyone here) I suggest we re-ask the question not so much as what tool do you use? but how you effect this joint?. (You know- folks here complain about tool reviews yet question after question centers on what tool to buy. When's the last time a KNOTS member asked "how to"?)
So here's my offering (this is an all hand tool account):
The shoulder is the easy part- you have to saw to a line. Most of the time I get this right. When I don't, the shoulder is rarely parallel to the line such that a single plane swipe or two would fix it. Reclaiming the line for me usually involves working away material from the center or one side of the shoulder. I do this in seconds with a sharp chisel.
The squareness of the shoulder thru its thickness is of no consequence except that it effects the end shoulder (which may have to be pared back to its line. This is a mistake I rarely make because I use the "saw the corners out" technique which all but guarantees a square cut. I also work to a knife line and find my cross cut filed backsaw jumps into that line nicely. But regardless of my sawing prowess, I undercut the shoulder because I think it makes a tighter looking joint. So that's it for the shoulder. I never use the strategy of leaving the line and paring down to it later. My goal is complete both sides of the joint in 15 minutes. Remember that this joint rarely comes in ones or twos. I recently did 16 such joints. Working quickly is important.
The cheeks I cut with a back saw (usually first, then cross cut the shoulder- I'm careful not to under cut the tenon since that is where the strength is). When the tenon is big, you need the big (real) tenon saw (ask mike wenz for pictures). It can be difficult to produce a perfect tenon as any mistakes are exaggerated over a long length. As before, when I've miscut the cheeks, the problem is rarely an even offset from what I want. More often its one corner too high. So I need to remove a triangular tapering section of wood. For this I use a wide firmer (I think mine is 1-3/4"). This is usually seconds of work. This could be completely different when working with power tools.
Adam
disclaimers/disclosures
I almost always draw bore my joints. Its a simple fact that my joints needn't be as tight as they would if they weren't at least pegged. I may be able to "get away" with sloppier fits than others.
The overwhelming majority of m&t's I see are in white pine. I work with a great deal of pine, much of it painted- so whatever gaps exist in my joints may tend to disappear with subsequent top coats. Sanding and its gap filling dust is rarely a factor. I tend not to sand my work.
I've done a fair number of m&t, all by hand, in a variety of woods and styles. The most challenging are those in formal 18th c chairs which I have NOT made. The 10' window seat I completed last week is fairly typical of my work. The surface work is a little on the rough side, the joints are very fine, and the design is entirely based on classical proportioning (which in my opinion is the best part of everything I do- Work that I can't claim credit for!). The 10' paneled front with 7 or 8 raised panels was one day's work. 2 hours of panel raising, 4 hours of joinery. The rest was head scratching and stock prep. I have pictures if anyone wants to see it. Just email me offline.
Again, not to be confrontational, but I agree with Glaucon, its important to link the work with the advice, not at all as a litmus test, but just to promote a deeper understanding of the advice given. I work this way. I know its not for everyone.
LV medium shoulder...... the just under 3/4" (11/16") width makes it a good choice to clean the bottom of a 3/4" dado if you cut dadoes with a dado blace on a TS, also.
Good luck...
grinder47... SARGE
Hi Tom pick up The videos by Jim Kingshot he has several on planes as well as one on dove tails and mortise and tenons. As far as e-bay goes the old saying a picture is worth a thousand words is true. It seems that the nicer stanley planes sell for as much as a Veritas or LN.
Have fun
Troy
What are folks using? I have most of the Stanley and Record models. I use them very rarely, but they are "nice" tools eg well made and looking.
I don't like undercutting shoulders-I expect my machine methods to preclude it.
When I need to use a shoulder plane I am very pleased to have one handy as it is more accurate a nd faster to use than chisels for the purpose of tweaking .
tom,
When it comes to fitting up tenons, there are lots of options. As someone suggested, the best course is to just get it right the first time! However, woodworking doesn't often take place in a perfect world (not my world at least) and so we need tools for saving a joint that we don't want to do over. I've used everything from a rasp to a chisel to a low angle block plane to get myself out of various pinches in tenon to mortise. What I use most, is an old (bought new in 1972) Stanley 78 rabbet plane. As others have pointed out, most shoulder planes will be rather narrow for all but the shortest tenons, but one will work, just use multiple passes to get the job done.
I used to cut my tenons with a dado set on the tablesaw, and felt that the joint thus made was improved by cutting the tenon just oversized, then planing to fit. The rabbet plane works well for that operation.
I've seen many old hand-cut joints in the repairs I've done over the years. I've seen sawmarks still visible, as Adam says should be done. Often though, the tenons have been planed to fit, and often enough, I'll see tenons wrapped with cotton or linen cloth, saturated with glue, to achieve a proper fit. So let's not get ourselves too wrapped up in being impressed with the skills of the old timers.
What is a proper fit? Well if the freakin tenon won't uggh go uggh into the frakkin uggh mortise, it's ugggh too tight idn't it? We can debate whether a slip fit, a piston fit, an interference fit, a press fit, or a drive fit, is the right one. A too tight tenon can act as a wedge and bulge thin mortise walls away from the tenon cheeks. Certainly whether our glue is good at gap filling is a consideration. And the weather is, too. I've had joints fit well one day, then be too tight to go together a few days later after the weather got humid. Certainly, we want as much surface area as possible to be in proximity, or the glue won't get a hold. Approaching as closely as is practical to the ideal (our layout lines, marked onto square straight stock) however we get there, is our goal. Either a rabbet or shoulder plane will do the trick. Or a piece of cotton sheeting.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Nice shot Ray...
Regardless of if you arrive safely in a Rolls Royce, Cadillac or beat up ole Chevy pick-up is in my opinion mute. The celebration of arrival will far out-weigh the mode of transport as all that will be judged in the test of time will be the end result.
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
Sarge,
Long time, no see.
Well, for some of us, the destination is the goal, for others, it's all about the journey. Generally, the proponents of totally hand-powered technology are in it for the ride. Nothing wrong at all about that approach. I've a good friend who sometimes helps me in the shop when I've got my butt in a sling. While I appreciate the heck out of his help, it is a little irritating for me when I'm pushing hard to meet a deadline, and look over to see him humming a song to himself and puttering along, examining each shaving for uniformity as it exits his plane. That's the pace he works at, all the time, because he doesn't have bills that won't get paid, til after the finish dries. So he's happy riding in a horse and buggy, no pick-em-up trucks or Caddys for him. The end product, for him, is a mere by-product of what he's really doing.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Well Ray, the difference between your tenon wrapped in cotton or linen and mine is I have to use a compress bandage like the one's we carried in VN to stop field expedient arterial bleeding. :>)
I'll let you get back to work to pay the mortgage. I know that if someone broke in your shop where you had to trim a tenon to finish a job and stole your planes, hand-saws, rasp, files. paring chisels, router, etc. etc.... you would just go get a butcher knife from the kitchen and put it to the grinder.
In the words of a truly great American.... "Get-er-Done" ha.. ha...
Regards for a great holiday...
grinder47.. SARGE
Sarge,
You have yourself a happy Independence day, as well. Thanks to fellows like you, we are able to celebrate. I'll hoist one in your honor on tuesday.
Best regards,
Ray
That's a good picture there Ray. The cotton sheet fix seems a bit slack though so I'd rather glue a slip on -at least it is wood(;).
You did leave out one type of fit though-the push fit.Philip Marcou
philip,
I've been known to paste a slice of veneer onto the side of a tenon or two myself. It is a more elegant, and probably stronger, repair of a loose tenon than cloth--unless it's a piece of shirttail that got caught in the assembly process. Then I just whack it off and go on.
Regards,
Ray
What are folks using? Opinions wanted
Like Adam, I mostly get it right from a handsaw--when I use one. Which is maybe 1/3 of the time. The shoulders rarely if ever need trimmed [I also undercut them]. Else I use a WoodRat, so shoulders are near perfect [if not perfect] everytime.
Thickness of tenon is another issue. When using hand methods I may not get the thickness of a tenon so it fits pleasing to me [or at all]. As for thicknessing a tenon, I opt for a rasp and or a file, depending on how much material there is to remove. I find it more controlled and faster than a plane. When I have used a plane for thicknessing a tenon, it has been a LN rabbet plane.
Thicknessing lap joint pairs, I most often use a router plane, both halves butted to each other and held to the bench so the router plane sits on both faces. I made a wide cutter for mine. It is perhaps 5/8" to 11/16" wide, but I have never measured it.
Take care, Mike
Since this is not, as someone here has pointed out, a premier woodworking forum, I must be in the right place. My tenons are definitely not hand sawn, and definitely not right first-time-every-time. But, because I do seek very nice fitting joints in my work, I rely very much on the wonderful Lie-Nielsen medium shoulder plane for tenon fitting. For your information I prefer it to the L-N block plane that is made for the same purpose, when fitting smaller tenons. The weight of the tool and that adjustable mouth just make the shoulder plane a joy to use. The block plane is nice for larger tenons, though.
The large shoulder planes seem very awkward, but havent used one.
I was of the same opinion for years until I eventually bought one.. suffice to say that when you need a "go to" tool to take a whisker off a cheek or shoulder, the large L-N definately fits the bill...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The large shoulder planes seem very awkward, but havent used one.
I was of the same opinion for years until I eventually bought one.. suffice to say that when you need a "go to" tool to take a whisker off a cheek or shoulder, the large L-N definately fits the bill...
Mike
My experience echoes your own. My "go to" shoulder plane is a craftsman-made Norris-lookalike that is 1 1/4" wide. It can shave a gnats behind. I enjoy the extra heft since the momentum it affords makes it easier to pare hardwoods. However, I probably would not have enjoyed using this plane when I started out (as I did with a Stanley #92). It is probably more psychological, but still somewhat physical, that a smaller plane feels easier to control.
For reference on the size differences, here is a picture of the HNT Gordon 3/4", Stanley #92 (which also uses a 3/4" wide blade), and Veritas Medium (3/4" ditto). The infill shoulder is in the background.
View Image
It is only with hands-on time with all examples that the ergonomic differences (e.g. balance and comfort) become apparent. There is more to just this in separating the shoulder planes as well, and factors such as blade adjustment are relevant. For example, the Gordon is a fantastic plane, but the fact that it requires a hammer to adjust the blade is likely to be daunting for a novice. It is, in reality, quite easy to do, but it does require a little extra practice. The experienced user glosses over such "minor" matters. Given experience and the wisdom of hindsight, I would also choose a large shoulder plane if I was looking for just the one.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
For those that would look at the photo that you posted - note the high angle of the HNT Gordon plane's cutting blade. (The HNT Gordon plane is the wooden one with the brass on the bottom).
I have a 3/4" HNT Gordon shoulder plane and I use it for making raised panels as much as anything. The high angle sometimes works well for going across the grain in some difficult woods like hard maple (or the jarrah I still have from the last time I was in your part of the world), once you've got the fielding established. The large, vertical surface area of the plane works well for being able to control what you are cutting.
I also have a Stanley 92 (low angle, bevel-up) on the bench and two wooden planes with skewed blades and nickers. I guess the point is that these wonderful planes have other uses than trimming tenons,...Also the whole high angle, low-angle, bevel-up, bevel-down, issue is in play. (Just use whatever works best for the particular situation. Don't be a slave to conventional wisdom.)
Take care, Ed
Hi Ed
Just to add to your post, the HNT Gordon's 30-degree bevelled blade can be reversed and, when reset in the 60 degree bed, it converts this shoulder plane into a 90 degree scraper plane. Yet another use for a shoulder plane!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Metod,
You're right, of course. I'm doing what I do, because I enjoy the trip as well as the destination. Otherwise the paycheck wouldn't cover the aggravation factor!
Regards,
Ray
Tom,
I just read the entire thread of messages on shoulder planes. Absolutely wonderful entertainment filled with the wisdom that can only come with extended experience, and with wit, the likes which I have not seen heard since the Burton/Taylor movie, "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? I am now almost convinced that it's not the tools, it's the skill of the woodworker. I will be absolutely convinced of this, if one of you builds a Queen Anne highboy out of highly figured mahogany using only a scythe, a 12 lb. rock, a discarded pair of pinking shears, a Marples 1/8" chisel with a missing handle, and a Craftsman 3/8" socket wrench. When you finish, please post a photo. Then we will all know that we don't need no stinkin' shoulder planes.
All seriousness aside, this thread has been quite instructive as well as entertaining.
TIC (tongue in cheek) as always,
96
PS - My favorite cartoon is of a dog who is typing at a computer and saying to another dog, "The nice thing about the Internet is that no-one knows that I am a dog." I glanced at the cartoon as I read this thread and wondered: is it possible that most of the contributors to this thread work in IKEA factories?
<<"builds a Queen Anne highboy out of highly figured mahogany using only a scythe, a 12 lb. rock, a discarded pair of pinking shears, a Marples 1/8" chisel with a missing handle, and a Craftsman 3/8" socket wrench">>Adam could do it with an 8 lb rock and no pinking shears...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Double entendres are good. Tongue in cheek in which part?
Tom
Just to throw my two cents in, and Adam glazed over the issue slightly, trimming the cheeks of the tenon. Think about this a moment, what are you using for a reference surface? Just freehanding the cheeks with a plane of any type is asking for misalignment. My belief is that the proper tool here is the router plane. It can reference the cheek to the face of the board, and make it parallel to that face.
Shoulder planes are for shoulders. Use a router plane for the cheeks.
Just my opinion,
Mike
As well, though it is also freehand, I use rasps. Got plenty of them always at hand.
On the left as sawn...on the right as rasped.
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/tenon.jpg
Take care, Mike
***edited to add I use the rasps for the cheeks...***
Edited 7/3/2006 9:51 pm by mwenz
Mike,
Whatever works for you. As I pointed out in my earlier post, there are many ways to get some slack in a too-tight tenon. For me, taking a small increment at a time off the cheek (plane shaving thickness), referencing off the surface that is too plump, is more manageable than taking the whole amt off at once by referencing from the rail's face (router plane), esp if the blade must be extended an inch or more out from the shoulder of the joint. Planing the tenon's cheek does require some degree of judgement- figuring out where the rub is, and taking off only as much as needed only where needed. Different strokes for different folks.
No body's mentioned paring the sides of the mortise, but that's an option too, if the mortises were chopped by hand, there's a possibility that there's where the problem lies anyway.
Regards,
Ray
Hi Ray,
Yep, I was just talking with Tom and there is so much which comes up during conversation which can be catagorized by, "well, I do this, except in this case and then I do it this way using this widget, and then sometimes I do X instead of Y and...and..."
Such is the nature of posts. They tend to generalize. Sometimes I to pare the mortise if the tenon looks "right."
As well, sometimes I have been known to use a LN rabbet block, or the LN #140 skew angle block. Or a file for an even more controlled "cut."
Heck, sometimes I have been known to use a match and start over <g>.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Then there's my dad's approach; "Don't force it!...Get a bigger hammer."
Got a pic-a-nic to attend. See ya,
Ray
96,
<<PS - My favorite cartoon is of a dog who is typing at a computer and saying to another dog, "The nice thing about the Internet is that no-one knows that I am a dog." I glanced at the cartoon as I read this thread and wondered: is it possible that most of the contributors to this thread work in IKEA factories?>>
Hey....some one gotta make that stuff fer them what don't know no better......
;-)~~
Mit ironischer Schalkschnarrigkeit!
Cheers!
James
Edited 10/5/2006 12:55 pm by pzgren
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