Replies

1. 
   DougF | Jul 05, 2005 06:06pm | #1

   Mark, to me the shoulders define the dimensions of the cross piece and keep the piece firmly in place until the glue sets and the pins are driven.  Structurally, the shoulders absorb some of racking forces that otherwise would be directly transferred to the pins and a less than substantial glue joint,  assuming the tenon is glued.    

2. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 05, 2005 07:13pm | #2

   Yes, but you don't need to shoulder all the way around. I use through-tenons a lot, and often only cut shoulders top and bottom. It's the cheeks that are more of a pain, and if you are careful with your mortising you don't really need to shoulder the sides of the tenons. You can also house the joint, to hide any imperfections.

   "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

1. 
   MarkinNY | Jul 05, 2005 08:00pm | #4

   Thanks. That answers my question. It is actually the cheeks I hate to cut, and the cheeks I am trying to avoid. Now I know that I can. Your web site shows that you know from which you speak. Markp.s. I guess my nomenclature mistake exposes me as the weekend warrior I am.

1. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 05, 2005 11:36pm | #5

   Glad I could help. Don't worry about the nomenclature, I'm not even sure myself half the time... as long as the meaning gets communicated, that's all that matters!"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

3. 
   Jellyrug | Jul 05, 2005 07:20pm | #3

   Without shoulders, the joint line, where the tenon enters the joining piece, will always be more visible.

4. 
   philip | Jul 06, 2005 01:16pm | #6

   Mark,
   What is it that is causing you to "hate cutting shoulders"?
   If we can address that issue it may be of lasting use to you.

5. 
   DougF | Jul 06, 2005 05:12pm | #7

   I also wondered why you have an aversion to cutting shoulders and cheeks.  I find this phase of cutting M & T's pretty straightforward.  I use a stop block on my TS or RAS to score all four sides of the tenor and then I relieve the waste using either a dado on the RAS, the band saw or both.  Using the stop block assures that tenon shoulders and cheeks are perfectly referenced. 

1. 
   MarkinNY | Jul 06, 2005 10:50pm | #8

   Until recently I have usually used a dado blade with a sliding miter table on a Ryobi BT3100 table saw to cut shoulders and cheeks. I have spent enormous amounts of time with test pieces to get the right thickness, but nonetheless, on the finished pieces, my results are generally inconsistent. The shoulders I make are acceptable. The big problem is cheeks. I have tried various homemade jigs including stop blocks over the years, but have not been able to get a consistently good fit. Although I read alot, I am self taught, and I cannot seem to consistenty position the wood against sliding miter or the other jigs I have built. Last year, I gave up altogether on power tools for the cheeks, and now cut them by hand -- again with inconsistent results. In any event, last week, I cut my tenons with a router, and the results were perfect. Since I finally have perfect tenons, I don't want to mess them up with imperfect cheeks so I am happy to lose the cheeks. However, I know that for an important upcoming project, I will have to make cheeks yet again, and, therefore, I would be very appreciative of any suggestions. Best Regards. Mark

1. 
   MarkRD | Jul 06, 2005 11:41pm | #10

   Mark, I've posted a few pics of the process I just used on my Misson Sofa table. Granted they are not "through" tenons but the same process might apply.First I set up my TS with a spacer off of the fence (I use the one that came with my Vega Fence, but a clamped block would work just as well.I also use my tablesaw sled. I cut only an 1/8" or so deep just to eliminate tear-out when I do the bulk removal with the router.I built the horizontal mount router table and the router sled and use the router to remove the bulk of the material. I set the router cutter depth to the left side of the TS shoulder cut.Of course, their may be issues with through tenons depending on their length - my setup is limited by the length of my router bit. If I had a project requiring longer tenons, I'd probably use a TS tenon cutter...HTH,
   MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.Edited 7/6/2005 4:42 pm ET by MarkEdited 7/6/2005 4:43 pm ET by Mark

   Edited 7/6/2005 8:20 pm ET by Mark

   
1. 
   DougF | Jul 08, 2005 01:59am | #11

   Looks like a winner and there are certainly few ways to achieve as clean and consistent cuts as with a horizontal router. 

1. 
   MarkinNY | Jul 08, 2005 02:18am | #12

   All of this thoughtful advice got me to thinking I should stop whining and do some research. I found an article which has a plan for a "tenoning sled" that appears to be ridiculously easy to make and use. I am going to build me one of those. Check it out: http://www.dewalt.com/us/articles/article.asp?Site=woodworking&ID=244

2. 
   MarkRD | Jul 08, 2005 03:13am | #13

   I really like that fixture. Quite simple and it looks safe too.Thanks for posting the link.
   Mark
   

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

3. 
   BG | Jul 08, 2005 10:09pm | #14

   Mark,
   As long as your looking for ideas...I cut my tenon cheeks on the bandsaw ..quite fast with little setup time. 

2. 
   Walker1 | Jul 09, 2005 10:22pm | #15

   Could you give me an opinion on cutting tenons with a tenoning jig on the table saw. I'm looking at buying a thin kerf WW11 Forrest blade because my saw is a two hp. I'm concerned the thin kerf might not be up to the task of making quality deep cheek cut's.

1. 
   Jellyrug | Jul 09, 2005 10:35pm | #16

   Walker,

   I did this with a good combination blade, which gave OK results, but not perfect, as there was always a bit of tearout.

   I then tried a Forrest Chopmaster 80T on my table saw and it was not much better than the combination blade.

   Next time I may consult with Freud, to get something which gives no tearout on the shoulders and cheeks.

2. 
   MarkRD | Jul 09, 2005 10:57pm | #17

   Walker,
   I've not used a tennoning jig however the blade I used to cut the sholders (shown in the pictures) is a Freud lu-84 80 tooth triple chip (three different bevels on the teeth). Technically it's a laminate blade and good for cross cutting (according to Freud). I love it even for light duty ripping too...Mark
   

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

3. 
   AlbionWood | Jul 10, 2005 07:23am | #18

   I use a tenoning jig in a DeWalt TS, 1-1/2 hp motor, thin-kerf Freud rip blade, and have no difficulty cutting cheeks on white oak tenons up to 3 inches long. Just go slow and listen to the saw.The thin-kerf blade is definitely necessary, though. With a regular combo blade, I can only do about 1-1/2" tenons and even then it's tough going.You'll have to switch to a crosscut blade for the shoulder cuts. If tearout is a problem, score the cut line on the exit side with a chisel before cutting. That Freud ultimate crosscut blade does a pretty nice job, though!"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."  A. Einstein

   http://www.albionworks.net

4. 
   Walker1 | Jul 10, 2005 08:03am | #19

    

    Thanks to all, thats what I needed to know.   

                                         WALKER1

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

             

6. 
   Steinmetz | Jul 06, 2005 11:29pm | #9

   Mark do you have a tenoning jig? DELTA)

   It holds the stock square and and orientated to the blade as it slides in the saw's miter gauge slot Once set up . there's no need to hold the stock with your fingers (Which can cause 'creeping'

   Alternately, by positioning a short stop block (Not the fence) to reference the length of the tail: and gluing coarse belt sander cloth to the miter gauge,will eliminate any creeping. and will insure accurate repeatability' Steinmetz.