To the WW’er asking about spindle sleeves and anyone else concerned with rippers!
Throw the Boss away and get yourself a real oscillating spindle sander from Clayton Machine (HTC Products) 800-971-5050. Clayton makes them right here in the USA (Royal Oak, MI) and sets the standards. Everyone else just copies them.
They always have a variety of sleeve sizes in stock and you can buy bulk.
It continues to dismay me that so many innovative inventors of power tools and accessories get ripped off. Clayton’s bench top OSP has been ripped off by at least three well-known companies and you guys rush out and buy the imported pieces then cry when they break or you can’t find parts or “cheap” accessories for them.
Clayton’s parent company, HTC Products (800-624-2027) invented mobile bases and outfeed/infeed roller stands for power woodworking tools and then get “copied” by one of their vendors (Shopfox).
These rippers never invented anything in their life. They’re like vultures sitting in trees and when an American entrepreneur comes up with a solution to a problem, invests their money, creates the market, then the vultures swoop in with an import … and you guys can’t wait to hand them your money.
Sorry, but it sticks in my craw to see this happen and it happens because woodworkers buy this crap.
I’m no union guy or any more patriotic than the next person. It’s just that I believe in supporting these small guys that solve problems.
Sick ‘n tired of ripoffs!
Benjamin
Replies
ell - where the heck are all the "Buy American" woodworkers?
I read about truck problems on a woodworking board and listen to someone talk about how "boring" the posts are.
Apparently everyone is happy with their China, Taiwan and Brazilian made tools --- virtualy ALL of which have been ripped off from American entrepreneurs!
Then, there's all the posts about "what about this tool or that tool" most of which are imported rips from an American company.
Woodworkers are supposed to be Great Americans. We are stable, dedicated, family-oriented, move-less-than-average, tend to garden, self-sufficient, hard-working folks!
Perhaps you won't speak out because you've put too many imported tools in your shop.
Oh well, I expected as much!
Ben
BEN: Calim down we dont want you to be all excited like that its no good for ya..
I agree with you that were all being ripped off by our own American companys,there all importing tools from God only knows where these days, and I feel its a Damn shame that our companys have to bring this junk here when they should be making it right here in the USA, we have millions of people here looking for jobs ,If the American Woodworkers would all stand together and say no were not buying it,then the large companys would wake up.. but you know as well as I do its not going to happen. soo Delta,Jet, Grizzly and the rest of the junk peddlers will keep pouring imports onto the woodworkers..
ToolDoc
####, Doc!
There are tons of small companies out there making tools and accessories here is the USA or Canada, our neighbor to the North. The "big" companies you refer to get your attention because they make the biggest noise in ww mags and at the shows.
Just quit buying the imports and spend a little time looking for Ameican-made tools. They are out there.
Tell these rippers you want an American-made product and you'll get it.
And don't be suggesting I "calm down" ... I enjoy getting excited specially when it comes to all that cheap crap you see advertised ...BTW, check the ownership of the "American companies" you refer to selling the imports. You'll be surprised.
Ben
Americans and Canadians, in general, don't want quality.
They want price. That's why we all saw without riving knives and route with Taiwanese bits and saw with offshore bandsaws.
You are right to rant for home grown stuff, but... we need to become more competitive here in North America.
Soon our children will not even know how things are made, let alone how to make them. (and make them better!)
Rant finished.;-)
Bob
Hey Ben,
I agree the Boss isn't much, but then again it doesn't cost much. Just a few points to stir the pot up:
Finally, Ridge tools are made in the good old USA, and - except for their pipe wrenches - I wouldn't pay scrap price for any of them. They have a plant just 4 blocks down the street from my house. They pay their workers barely more than minimum wage, treat them like dogs (correction, the Humane Society would insure that a dog is treated better) and threaten to close the plant every time contract talks come around. Buy American? Bah!
Jeff
Geez - get real Jeff K.
ShopFox is owned by Grizzly. Sure it's a brand but it is marketed as a separate company same as they do Woodstock Int'l. for their dust collection stuff.
As for the ratings. I read that story. Don't be duped. Ad linage has a lot to do with. Grizzly runs full page ads ... HTC runs 4" x 1 column ads. Having served as editor of a national magazine I know where the pressure comes from. That's why I quit the company after 14 months of being asked (forced) to bend the truth.
Just remember, you get what you pay for. HTC has a lifetime warranty ... and it's not just lip service. They back it with action and no questions.
The Clayton is worth THREE times what Jet or anyone else asks for their spindle sander. It is the BEST and its made right here in AMERICA.
Let me know when a Taiwanese motor outperforms a Baldor and I'll be in Baldors face telling them to build it better.
Who said anything about stealing? I said the HTC line got ripped off. If you've been around business you should know that design patents are only good for trading. The court system ... well, we won't go there.
The Roller Table was invented by HTC. Look it up.
You should re-think your "Buy American-Bah" statement. That's the very mentality that got us where we are today with manufacturing. Bet you buy shirts made in China or Taiwan, too. That's precesely why we don't have any textile mills in the south any longer.
Read the labels folks - read the labels. Damn right ... BUY AMERICAN!!!
Ben
I'm not going to get into this at any length, but bear in mind, the same "buy american," line is to the same people who want to maximize their profits in their IRA's, 401K's, their personal stock market trading, etc. Like it or not, the vast majority of americans are involved in these "markets"(60 some % if memory serves me right) and rely on them more then the job security of their neighbor. Is it right or wrong? I don't know, it's just a reality.
Don
Don,
A caring person can still enjoy profits.
Benjamin
Read the labels folks - read the labels. Damn right ... BUY AMERICAN!!!
Oh boy, the ideological approach to judging quality.
Is your estimation of the intelligence of the people you are advising so low that you think they can't make decisions in their own best interest?
The Clayton is worth THREE times what Jet or anyone else asks for their spindle sander.
Show us your calculations. It will last three times as long? It will do the same sanding job in one-third of the time. You just made that up, didn't you?
(the Clayton) is the BEST.
You made that one up, too, didn't you? Any objective tests you are willing to share with us?
It's nice to love your country. It's economic nonsense to think that BUY AMERICAN is a solution to anything. Would you advise other peoples to buy only from their domestic sources? That is, DON'T BUY AMERICAN?
That's the very mentality that got us where we are today with manufacturing. Bet you buy shirts made in China or Taiwan, too. That's precesely (sic) why we don't have any textile mills in the south any longer.
It's also the very mentality that got us to being the richest nation in all history. The South doesn't have textile mills, true. But they have a bunch of factories making Asian- and European-designed automobiles and the tires and scads of other components that support those factories. Those jobs pay far more than the old textile factories and have led millions of Southerners to economic progress so that they can buy Japanese Jet Skis and TVs.
Do you seriously think that I'd be doing a poor minimum-wage textile worker a favor by buying American-made shirts? I'd much rather buy from China so those foreign workers can then buy access to American-made Boeing 777s and come to the US as tourists. The former US textile worker then makes three (I just made that number up) times his former pay selling stuff to the foreign tourists.
But you already knew that, didn't you?
The American consumer is a lot smarter and wiser than you give him/her credit for.
Don,
I am not questioning anyones intelligence. Quality happens to be important to me. I will pay for it. You must be aware that China and Taiwan uses inferior steel and iron and less of it. Their craftsmanship is inferior. You get what you pay for.
The length of service of a tool is not as important as the accuracy you achieve.
Fine WOodworking tested Clayton's spindle sander and said it was the best machine in its class, but was more expensive than the plastic ones. You get what you pay for.
If the American consumer is smarter than I give him credit for being ... why does the American woodworking consumer continue to buy China and Taiwan imports? You get what you pay for.
Benjamin
I think I will continue to shop for the best Deal WITH quality.... IF everyone on here ONLY went for price we would all buy HARBOR FREIGHT... PPPFFFFFFTTT
THis thread was started buy some guy wanting everyone to buy an INDUSTRIAL GRADE sander (clayton) Likely works for them. There are alot on here who do this for a hobby and will continue to buy accordingly.
I have Mostly DELTA machines , a Jet Jointer... There are better out there , but way overpriced. UNLESS you are a production shop.
I will buy the clayton when they match the price of the BOSSmakinsawdust
I hope Clayton never lowers themselves to try to match the price of a Boss, ever!
Guess I'm out of luck with some of you guys then? Everything I produce is currently made in America, but none of it's 'American' made. Many of my foreign tools where purchased outside America and brought in with me too, and I can't vote or sit on US juries either, which causes me absolutely no grief at all, and some of my earnings never even reach these shores. It must all be junk, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
Sgian, I've seen your work and can only wish that I had that kind of talent. You are an artist. I have to say though that if you think what I said is that your stuff is junk you need to spend less time woodworking and more time learning the language.
Didn't you originate a thread not long ago complaining because some customers only wanted to shop price? If I remember right, they wanted you to lower your prices to compete with lesser quality work? What is the difference between that and woodworkers who buy inferior knock offs simply because they're cheaper? Why should quality tools cost more?
It doesn't bother you not to be able to vote or serve jury duty? All that says to me is that you don't mind enjoying the freedoms this great country provides but that you don't want to share in the responsibility to protect those same freedoms. Not that much different than an overseas manufacturer selling here but paying no Fed income tax
Steve K
The value of american made or not is such a subjective point, there is no way to win or lose, or convince anyone any differently then they currently think. That said,
I did some work about 5 years ago at the headquarters of Borders Books. While there I got to know a guy who worked for them who was from France. He came over here to work to take advantage of our taxing and wagebenefit systems and was just waiting to retire so he could go back to France where in his opinion everything wasn't so F###ed up. While discussing how he had fallen into what he believed to be the cat's meow, he further went on to discuss how much he disliked this country and people and everything about it. After telling him what I thought of his hypocritical #### I spent a couple of hours with the director of human resources for the company about what contact I could and could not have with their employees. Needless to say, I have never been called back to bid on any work. I don't believe I'd go anyway.
I get the feeling Siagan enjoys what he's doing where he is at. I can't fault him for taking advantage of a system he has no control over. Hell, he might as well return tools to Lowes for a $50 gain! hahaha
Don
krumy, I'm trying to decide if your post shows an aggrieved tone. Perhaps you missed the intended dry, sardonic, irony in my contribution. We British are as proud of our heritage and nation as anyone else you might care to think of, but we do tend to have a different sense of humour. I exploit those cultural differences from time to time to see if I can get a rise. There's nearly always someone willing to fall for it.
Oh, if you found that were living in my equally 'great, free' country for a few years, can I assume, bearing in mind your comments on 'responsibility, protect, etc.,' that you'd drop your US citizenship like a hot potato so that you could become a British citizen? My American wife felt like me about her nationality, and retained her US citizenship during her period of GB residency. If, and when, we move back there, I'm sure she'll continue to be a US citizen.
Personally, I think the whole theme of, "If it ain't American, it's junk," is really rather laughable. There's plenty of 'junk' comes out of the US, just like everywhere else in the world produces its share of 'junk.' It's a two way street. There's good and bad items, goods, cultural values, services, etc., available from all around the world.
I did originate that thread. I wasn't complaining. I was just curious to see what strategies other furniture makers employ when faced with such tactics and requests. Seeking a lower/better/best price for goods or services is a normal business practice as far as I can tell. I do it. Slainte.
Website
Edited 10/14/2002 10:15:20 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Hey, I can't really argue about anything you said. I also will admit, this is a real touchy subject for me. I also agree, junk, like quality, can be found anywhere and I don't believe I ever said, "if it ain't American, it's junk" I can also appreciate that your proud of your heritage and your home country. That has a much different flavor to it then the first version of that sentiment.
I've know a little about the british sense of humor, after all, my SWMBO watches BBC America on cable. :) If fact, I thought there was a little(very?) humor in my post to you about learning the language.
I suppose I've said enough, let's end this positively and at peace.
Steve K.
Sgian,
I believe your resident alien status qualifies your products as being American made. Perhaps its not logical, but as evidenced by our books, movies, and space program, we Yanks love aliens.
BTW, I've looked at you site several times, and I must say that your work is masterful. I always consider it an honor when fellows of your talent take the time to give advice to us axe swingers. Thanks.
Jeff
Ben,
You keep making all these claims but fail to back them up. Again, exactly what features and qualities make the Clayton three times better than a Jet? While I agree that machines coming from China appear to be inferior to others, that doesn't seem to be the case with the Taiwanese. Are the steel and iron used in American machines better quality than they use in Taiwan? On what scale? According to whose study?
In what ways is Taiwanese craftsmanship inferior? Be specific. (SawStop says their new saw will be manufactured in Taiwan by Mao Shon because their's is the best woodworking machine facility in the world.)
Exactly how much heavier are the amounts of steel and iron in American machinery? (My dad said that on a construction job where he was working a few years ago - he's a pipe fitter - the engineers specified that NO pipe fittings manufactured in the U.S. were to be used because of their poor quality. The old man says you've never had fun until you've tried to weld metal with sand and rust in it.)
BTW, some, but not all, Powermatic machinery is made in the USA. Even so, Powermatic is owned by WMH, the same Austrian corporation that owns Jet, Wilton, et al.
You're making a lot of accusations, but not supplying any evidence to back them up. Are you serious, or just blowing a lot of hot air?
Jeff
PS When does patriotism become prejudice?
Edited 10/10/2002 11:29:26 AM ET by Jeff K
...the accuracy you achieve....
Ben, I think that has a lot more to do with the operator than the tool.
If the American consumer is smarter than I give him credit for being ... why does the American woodworking consumer continue to buy China and Taiwan imports?
Probably for the same reasons consumers have always made their choices in a competitive market: They buy what meets their needs if the price is acceptable.
Ben-
I've never used a Clayton oscillating spindle sander, so I will accept your word that it is the greatest one there is.
But I have seen the Clayton promotional material. Their benchtop model, which can use four spindle sizes, costs $730 in the page I was looking at.
My Grizzly floor model oscillating spindle sander currently lists for $525 (that's a little over 70% of the cost of a Clayton benchtop model. It has 10 spindle sizes, a tilt table, the cast iron table that is much larger than Clayton's and the machine weighs 300 pounds. Does all that inferior steel and iron weigh more than that used in American products? The American steel likely was imported, anyway.
My sander does everything I want it to do, and it will probably outlast me and a generation or so after me. With the extra spindle sizes and tilt table, it can do lots of useful things that the Clayton can't.
Isn't a competitive market combined with free trade wonderful?
Ben,
Grizzly runs full page ads...
This is true, yet their products usually don't receive very high ratings.
life time warranty
Just spent two months trying to get warranty service from Delta, another American company. Never took more than two minutes from Grizzly or Jet.
I said the HTC line got ripped off.
I believe that rip off is common parlance for theft. I haven't been receiving the Grizzly catalogue for too many years, but in the years I have, I haven't seen any HTC product for sale by them, so what's the supposed relationship between the two firms?
Let me know when a Taiwanese motor outperforms a Baldor...
I believe I stated that time will tell. Right now, we don't know, but given the quality of Jet products I don't think such an assumption unreasonable.
Clayton is worth three times...
Begs the question. How, precisely, is Clayton better (I really don't know) and is it so to such a degree that the significantly higher price is justified?
The Roller Table was invented by HTC...
Guess those 100 year old outfeed tables in the shop where I used to work were transported back in time. (Twilight Zone?) Factories all over the world have used roller infeed and outfeed tables for decades.
Buy American-Bah
I sympathize with the sentiment, but it just doesn't make sense to pay a significantly higher price for a product just because it is made in the USA. Back in the 1970's there wasn't an automobile built in this country that was worth a hill of beans. The Arab oil embargo caused American car buyers to flock to Japanese models in droves. The Big Three responded first by throwing about patriotic jargon, then by (finally) building products on par with or even better than the Japanese. Now, the industry flourishes. Perhaps American machinery manufacturers will heed the call and respond by manufacturing top quality products at competitive prices. Right now, however, the best manufacturing facilities in the world are in Taiwan. True Yankee know-how can, and should, do better. Until they do, I'll keep buying the imports.
Jeff
"Back in the 1970's there wasn't an automobile built in this country that was worth a hill of beans. "
To put it bluntly - this is BS. ANY American pickup truck or truck-based vehicle (Bronco, Jimmy, etc.) was far, far better than any Japanese vehicle of the time. In fact, if you look around (at least where I live) you can still see American vehicles of the '70's regularly on the road. I rarely see a Japanese car of the same time period. This, of course could be do to a number of variables: 1) more American cars were sold in the US, so more are still running; 2) There is a dearth of repair parts available for Japanese cars of that time period (very real possibility if you've ever attempted to get a part for a Japanese car over 5 years old); 3) American cars of that time period really weren't as bad as you'd like everyone to believe.
You get what you pay for in tools or anything else. I have yet to see any drill that comes close to a Milwaukee - and I don't care who makes it in either AC or battery powered. Porter Cable and Bosch both come close in some categories but the Milwaukee products are still better - and I own PC, Bosch, and DeWalt drills; and have used Makita and Hitachi products.
Everyone has to make a judgement as to what quality they're willing to pay for. I own a Unisaw because I don't use a cabinet saw enough to justify buying a Powermatic, much less a Northfield (wouldn't have room for it anyway).
I don't whine about the quality of the Unisaw because I knew exactly what I was getting for the money I was paying. And yes, I chose the Unisaw over the Jet because, for the most part it is made in America. Don't care about all of the experts who will now tell me about how the castings were made here or there or on Planet-X. It was assembled in the United States and kept some small group of workers employed. My choice, and I was willing to pay more for it than a Jet for that specific reason. It is a mid-line saw, doesn't have a riving knife, etc., etc. - and I don't care again because I don't do stupid things with it and use the blade guard 95% of time and have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs (complete).
"Right now, however, the best manufacturing facilities in the world are in Taiwan."
Really? For what products? The best airplane factories are in the United States. The best semi-conductor factories are in the United States. I could go on, but I would hope you get the point. You can't make sweeping generalizations like that, because it just isn't true.
In the United States, the "best" American products usually occupy the high-end or niche market of any particular product market segment. The mid to low end products (the majority of the market segment) is generally occupied by countries where labor costs are lower. Made in Japan has become Made in Taiwan which is becoming Made in China which, in turn will become Made in India which will become Made in Pakistan which will become made in......the cheapest labor source you can find.
Let's take something as mundane as shoes for an example. The BEST shoes are generally not made overseas (with the exception of women's fashion shoes, and some specialty shoes / boots made in Europe). The CHEAPEST shoes are made overseas in the Far East. Also, manufacturers wanting the highest profit margin (Nike as a prime example) have shoes made overseas and "factory hop" to find the lowest cost. The best shoes are still made in the US by manufacturers like Red Wing (not the Irish Setter line), Russell Moccassin, HH Trask, Sebago, Sperry, Florsheim, Rocky, and a host of western boot manufacturers. But, again - you will pay a much higher price for these products.
But, my question is - do you buy the best shoes or are you satisified with a pair made somewhere in the Pacific Rim that almost fit your American feet and last about 6 months?
Everyone makes choices based on their perception of "best." This usually comes down to what you can afford to put up with for the job that needs to be done - and sweeping quality generalizations about where a product is made don't fit into this equation.
Sad part is, I am sitting in a semiconductor firm right now in USA and we are making chip machines for Japanese company....and of course they are all for Plants in ASIA!!!
thats why this economy is in the dumps. WE design the product and they copy it for less costmakinsawdust
ArtPile
Please do not misquote me. I wrote, quoting the SawStop website, that Mao Shon was the best woodworking machine facility in the world, not the best manufacturing facility in general.
A pickup truck is not an automobile. Can you name one good American car that was made in the 1970's? I can't. GM's motors started burning oil before 50,000 miles; Ford's transmissions were no good; Chrysler didn't have a clue when it came to carburation. GM released the Vega with an insufficient cooling system that caused the aluminum block to crystallize and push oil right through the engine; Pintos exploded on impact, and so did GM light trucks; GM van's required unbolting the header pipes and lifting the engine 2"to change the rear spark plugs; ditto for the Ford Thunderbird; V8 Chrysler products had a propane port on the side of the carburetor. One had to run the car on propane and use those exhaust readings to set the carburetor. Of course it didn't work.... The list could fill a book.
My point was, in case you missed it, that foreign competition forced the big three to make radical changes in design and engineering that resulted in a line of mighty fine automobiles. Sure, it hurt in the short term; but in the long term both the manufacturers and the economy are better.
Why should the woodworking tool/machine industry be any different. My old Stanley Bailey #4 is better than anything you can buy for under $100 today. But what does Stanley make now? Garbage. They have chosen not to meet the needs of today's woodworker, and if/when they go under neither they nor anybody else would dare put the blame on me because I bought a Veritas and not a Stanley.
By the way, Jet fences are made in the USA. Do those American jobs count?
Jeff
Edited 10/10/2002 6:58:58 PM ET by Jeff K
First of all I did not misquote you. Read your own post #10 of 31 which says,
" Right now, however, the best manufacturing facilities in the world are in Taiwan."
That's what it says, no qualifications as to what is being manufactured or who the manufacturer may be. So, I would suggest that you not get on your high horse before checking your own post.
Oh, OK so we have to use YOUR definition of an automobile which does not include trucks. How convenient for you. Okay, a 1971 Ford Pinto. I bought it used with 25,000 miles on it. I put another 30,000 miles on it and only replaced the starter relay ($7.95 at the time), and sold it for $50 less than I paid for it. Oh, and a 1974 IH Scout but, again we can't count that under you definition because then your point wouldn't be valid.
I'm so glad you know all of the faults of American cars at the time - you can rest assured that the Japanese had there share of bad products. I owned a 1976 Honda Civic which, although I took meticulous care of the car - the engine blew up at 34,000 miles (still under warranty - but it took nearly 2 months to get it fixed). Then at 38,000 miles all of the upholstery had to be replaced because it literally fell apart. I had to split the cost 50:50 with the dealer on that one.
As to 50% of the parts being foreign made on Boeing aircraft, that's a tricky proposition. The reason being is that it depends upon the exact aircraft and what the air carrier orders. Even if they order GE jet engines, there is a good chance that many of the parts are made in both Albuquerque, NM and Monterey, Mexico and finally assembled in Albuquerque. Now, if the engines are Rolls Royce, then of course, they are in all probability totally foreign made. However, the planes are still assembled in Everett, Washington.
Boeing, who now own McDonald Douglas, jobs out a lot of parts to a variety of machine shops, many here in Albuquerque. The interesting thing about the jobbed out parts is that many of the parts that used to be made in Mexico are coming back to the United States because they don't pass the stringent QC requirements placed on the parts and many have to be re-made. A friend who works in an aerospace machining facility was part of a transfer the work to Mexico fiasco that lasted about 18 months before the Mexico facility was shutdown and all of the work returned to Albuquerque.
As for semi-conductor manufacturing, I would suggest that the next time you're in the Albuquerque area, you take the chance to go by the Intel facility in Rio Rancho, NM. Millions of square feet in size, and you can rest assured it is, in fact, state-of-the-art.
Well we can all feel good buying a honda because they are assembled here (depending on model) just like a boeing.
Your post 8251.32 was not a reply to post 8251.10, as you imply. Your post 8251.32 was a reply to post 8251.28 in which, again, I clearly state woodworking machinery manufacturing facilities. The context of 8251.10 makes it rather obvious that I was speaking of the same thing.
I made no mention of aircraft manufacturing or semi-conductors. I know nothing about these things.
This will be my final response to you since it is obvious that you refuse, or are unable to discuss these matters in a serious, intelligent and honest fashion.
Jeff
Hi, Ben. I see by your profile that you're a Shopsmith guy. I started my business with only a Shopsmith Mark 5 (and a dream!), so i can't say too much bad, except that i had to replace the quadrant assembly twice, the speed selector needed a crowbar to move it, the saw blade bore was 7/8" or something weird (proprietary blades, Ben?!?!), and all the aluminum parts were...well...sticky. The sanding disc deformed right away (too thin for the D) and if i extended the quill too far it fell out---bugger to fit back in, too. Table couldn't be raised/lowered without unscrewing the handle and repositioning it in another detente; the handle for the table tilt is just 1/4" too long to make a complete revolution without repositioning. FWW published a method a couple decades ago of retrofitting bearings into the headstock to improve runout. And really...slotted screws?...at that evolutionary juncture?
American-made, is my understanding.
Splintie,
And those were the ShopSmith's good points.
Rich
Hi Splintie,
I started on a Shopsmith and still use it in several configurations. Frankly, I own more woodworking tools than I need for what I do. Guess I am a tool freak and I have this deep-seated need to collect tools.
The real point of my original subject for this thread is that American woodworking tool manufacturers deserve our support.
For example, the folks at tool companies such as Shopsmith, HTC, Clayton and others I deal with are real nice people and they work very hard to maintain their quality.
I know lots of good woodworkers that started out on a Shopsmith and gravitated to individual tools (for many reasons). That does not remove the fact that Shopsmith helped them to realize their dream of becoming woodworkers. Far too many woodworkers have forgotten how they started.
We use to say at Shopsmith that we did not sell to woodworkers - we created them! That's very true. Don't forget ... there are over 700,000 folks out there putting out some terrific projects on Shopsmith's.
There have been a lot of esoteric responses to American Made vs. imports. Some of which I agree with and others I just don't understand.
Like the guy, with the passion to build a quality computer, that had to close down his computer business because he could not compete ... it breaks my heart when that happens to an American company.
It also angers me that so many Americans just buy price ... not just when purchasing tools but most other commotities, as well.
My wife recently announced we needed a new set of patio furniture. We went shopping and everything we looked at was made outside the USA. We searched and searched - internet, catalogs, Thomas Register - to no avail. Finally, we gave up. I designed and made a set!
We cannot give up and just toss out the idea that American manufacturing cannot compete. I know it sounds whimsical and unrealistic. But ... if I have gotten just one person ... just one ... to think about this subject and perhaps make a decision to buy a US made product -- woodworking tool, shirt, or other --- and refrain from buying an import --- then I achieved my objective for the post.
Good luck to you and all the other woodworkers in this forum.
Benjamin,
PS - Don't lay bet that I won't return to make comments when appropriate.If it ain't American --- it's junk!
If it ain't American --- it's junk!
As every Mercedes and BMW driver knows to his/her sorrow. It must be particularly shameful to need engine work after only 500,000 miles.
And what it cost to maintain a Mercedes or BMW to that mileage.... you can buy another american car makinsawdust
Yep, and for the price of a northfield you can put a dozen unisaws in your shop. So? Northfield is a much better saw.
Don
i am sure it is... but 12 times better ..i doubt itmakinsawdust
Can't keep out of the car part of this thread so here goes my 2 cents worth.
The very early 70's were the peak years for american cast iron muscle. Mopar still made hemi's and 440 six packs, Chevy had the 500hp LS6 in '71, even a bone-stock Lincoln Mark I motorized leather couch had 385 hp in a 429. Then everything went bad because of emissions and the shift to economy over power. I remember in '75 the quickest (1/4 mile) production vehicle made in the USA was a 454 Chevy 1/2 ton pick-up. Of course none of these cars handled or stopped worth a damn. The imports had a tremendous head start because they already made efficient, albeit anemic cars. But even Porsche had major troubles meeting emissions when they went to thermal reactors instead of catalytic converters. The eighties weren't much better. At least economy and performance in the average daily family driver steadily improved through the 90's. Sadly though we are still back-markers when it comes to real performance cars. That means rear drive, red-line limited in 5th or 6th gear (so you can steer with the gas pedal), fast, quick, near 1g on a skid pad and great breaking. If you eliminate third-party tuner/builders we have the Z06 ''Vette, the Cobra and the F150 HD or Lightning gets close. Everything else is jelly-bean looking front-drivers. By the same criteria if you look to Europe you're only going to find the BMW M5 or the pumped-up Audi A6. But you could by a Cobra and a Z06 for the price of an M5. Oh you say you need 4 doors with usable back seat? Then it's Mr. Break My Wallet or the Audi. Doh! I wished we put the money into engineering and building the cars instead of selling Caddies with ripped-off Led Zepplin tunes on TV.
BTW my current stable is pretty multi-national - '65 ElCamino (mine), '02 V6 Passat (wife), '90 Chevota (Geo, daughter) and '88 Mitsu (son). John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
And what it cost to maintain a Mercedes or BMW to that mileage.... you can buy another american car
What's the price of an American car? Heck, lots of others have been making up quantitative "facts" on this thread; let me try my hand. The mean cost of a new American car in inflation-adjusted 2001 dollars, is $22,300. That sound authentic enough?
Now, are you sure is would cost over $22,000 in maintenance charges to keep the Mercedes or BMW running for 500,000 miles? I assume you mean maintenance costs over those for an American car or however many cars it took to get to the same mileage?
Show us your data.
Thanks for the well-tempered reply, but it didn't address the thrust of my post, i.e. the Shopsmith, though American designed and manufactured, leaves much to be desired on both counts. As to how woodworkers get started...
I paid around $2300 for my Shopsmith in the late 70's--used, no warranty. It fit my first *shop*--a half-garage--rather well and has paid for itself many times over in 20 years, but had the imports been available to me at the time, i'd have been able to take the equivalent amount of money and bought a better dedicated saw ($325), bandsaw ($300), drill press ($200), lathe ($300), and disc sander ($130) and had some money left over for a dust collector ($130), a planer ($300) and a jointer ($325) with new warranties. (Current prices pulled from the Grizzly catalog.) Then i could have taken the remaining $535 difference to blow on--egad--hand tools. I'm prettying up the Shopsmith to sell for maybe $400. When i sold my first Grizzly TS, i got back all but $25 i paid for it.
Grizzly service and quality used to stink, but they improved tremendously while the Shopsmith sun is setting pretty quickly, partially bec some of your competitors--Shopsmith-trained, weren't they?--put out a better product that addressed some of the SS faults i mentioned. Without any proof, i would imagine that Grizzly et al. have created a lot more woodworkers than Shopsmith ever did or will.
I don't deny there are other factors involved like workers' conditions and environmental factors, but that is not what you were arguing or what i'm responding to. However, on that front, i would be a lot more inclined to support American workers and unions if they wanted to raise conditions world-wide instead of just protecting their little spot of turf in the US through protectionism.
Splinte,
First, let me make it very clear that I ONCE worked for the company. I am now retired and enjoying woodworking on ALL my American made machines and accessories.
Put the SS on eBay and you're likely to get near $2000 for it.
All SS's made by the current company have a lifetime warranty - just register with the company.
Setting sun? Whoa! They are selling well through demonstrations conducted in Lowe's stores. The company has invested a lot of money in this sales and marketing channel.
You must understand that woodworkers who've taken the time to learn the "system" and plan their projects prefer the SS to individual tools. Would you not agree that if you can retain settings and tolerances from one machine to another, you will retain the same accuracy throughout your projects?
Change over problems is a myth created by a few woodworkers in a hurry. The SS is NOT a production machine.
Your use of "better" in making comparisons is arbitrary. It's what you are satisfied with that counts.
There's two very important benefits you get with a SS that is often overlooked. Horizontal doweling is one and the drill press is another. Where in the world can you get a horizontal boring machine for less than the Shopsmith. You conveniently left it out. The drill press on a SS is the ONLY drill press ever that was designed as a woodworking drill press. ALL the others are designed for metal working and sold as woodworking drill presses.
Customer service at Shopsmith (quality is not even a concern) is second to none. The customer and his/her success always comes first. The customers repay that with an affinity for the product that is second to none.
The quill was upgraded. The quadrant assembly was completely replaced all of the items you mentioned in your earlier post has been upgraded. Shopsmith has made over 500 engineering changes to the MARK V since the current company bought the rights. Can you say that about ANY other woodworking tool on the market?
BTW, if you want to sell your SS equipment for $400 ... I don't know where you live, but I'll drive there to pick it all up at that price.
As for Shopsmith-trained folks that went on to other companies: people change jobs all the time. It's no different there. Nick Engler left and wrote over 50 woodworking books to become the best selling author of such books in the world. Gary Havens left and became the editor of Family Handyman. I believe the guy who ORIGINALLY started Jet was an ex-rep. I think their current marketing guy is an ex-Shopsmith employee. Ex-reps work for many of the tool companies you see on the woodworking show circuit. One is president of the company that bronzes baby shoes. One is a very successful diret marketing consultant. I parlayed my Shopsmith experience into the worlds largest internet marketer of woodworking plans ... Creative Woodcraft Plans, Ltd. http://www.WoodcraftPlans.com now owned and operated by my son. The list goes on and on and I say ... ain't it great that so many successful people in the woodworking business are ex-Shopsmith employees.
I am aware of how many customers are on the Grizzly list. No where even close to the number Shopsmith has.
I am sure none of this will satisfy your questions but here they are anyway.
BenjaminIf it ain't American --- it's junk!
Where in the world can you get a horizontal boring machine for less than the Shopsmith.
Here's one place: Put a $30 chuck on the motor shaft of any radial arm saw, and you have a horizontal boring machine.
I've mounted a chuck on the tailstock of my lathe and use it for horizontal boring
Comparing the horizontal boring capabilities of an RAS or lathe to those of a shopsmith are like comparing a hand saw to a unisaw. There is no comparison.
Something else to consider in this discussion for those who can't see past their billfolds is this. Someone stated that it made no sense to pay more for an American made tool than a cheap import if the quality was the same. That really isn't true and the logic carries through from buying local if possible to buying American if possible. When you spend your money in your local economy it tends to stay in your local economy. This is proven economic fact and is generally recirculated at least 7 times. Think about that, if you have sales tax in your area and the money you spent is respent 7 times you have just cut your own tax burden dramatically. The money is reinvested by business owners into a local area by means of wages, local taxes paid and services purchased in your area. It promotes a healthy economy. If you send away and buy mail order to save a nickel or two it costs you and your neighbors much more in the long run. The same is true on a national level. By Buying American made where possible the money spent stays in America. The money is respent and reinvested through taxes, expansion, because of demand for products, wages, etc. etc. At a time when our country is essentially at war it's even more important to support our own economy. When our money is sent overseas it's basically gone. The argument that other countries are buying our products is not accurate. If it were there wouldn't be such a dramatic trade deficit. The money spent on foriegn goods allows other countries armies to be funded and strengthens their economy at the expense of our own. These are facts, not opinions, and history has proven them true time and again. It won't matter to someone who is naturally cheap I know but to others I hope they will at least think about the consequences before sending $1000.00 to china to save $50.00.
Remember ignorance is treatable, stupidity is a choice
Steve K
Steve,
How does one define American Made? Does American mean United States, any country in the Americas, just North America, or only the United States? Are we talking about products manufactured here in the States from raw materials to finished product? assembled here using some foreign components? mostly foreign components? Companies owned only by American's with absolutely no foreign investors? If some foreign investment, how much?
I suppose these questions are somewhat rhetorical, but the way the global economy has developed, it's become difficult to define what American made means. Some folks readily include our good neighbors to the North as falling under the American banner. Where I live, however, the timber (especially pulp wood) and steel industries, as well as agriculture have been deeply hurt by the large influx of Canadian materials. If one includes Canada, shouldn't one include Mexico? If not, why not?
Jeff
Hi Jeff, those are valid questions and not easily answered. Honestly, I know that buying American is nearly impossible anymore. I do try and support local business first and will spend more to keep my money in my area and then in my country if possible. An example from this past summer. We needed (wanted) a new grill. Our old American made Weber is just about on it's last legs. We looked at dozens of gas grills this summer and nearly everyone is made in China. As it happens we didn't buy but in the spring we will probably buy another Weber, although there is one made in Texas we like real well. I really have no problem with foreign manufacturers competing here. I only wish we were all competing under the same rules. That's simply not the case. As stated right at the start of this discussion most offshore manufacturing has done little more than steal designs and dump inferior products into our marketplace. I believe that Canadian manufacturing competes under much the same conditions as we do. If a Canadian manufacturer offers a product at a competitive price at a competitive level of quality I have no problem buying it. However, if everything else is equal I will still support locally if possible. That is not the case with most south of the border industry. Employees of many American companies in underdeveloped countries are little more than serfs living in hellish conditions. The companies aren't paying a liveable wage and are operating with little or no regard for employee wellfare. I don't want to support that and if it costs me a little more to stand against it I will. The really bad thing is, many companies are subsidized by our own government to operate like that. In some cases goods are illegaly dumped into our market at costs less than the goods can be made. This has happened especially in steel manufacturing and foundry work. It's really little less than subversion.
Steve K
Dear Steve K. and Benjamin--
You knee jerk economic liberals make me sick. Buy American? I suppose you include such places as "Ohio" and even, for crying out loud, "Minnesota" as part of America?
Boy, I'm certainly not willing to send my hard-earned money to places like Ohio and Minnesota that undoubtedly use child labor and bar imports from anywhere else and probably have funny ideas about women.
No Siree Bob! I and all my like-minded friends don't buy anything unless it comes from right here in Gadsden County, Florida. Why should we send our money even to other counties in Florida when they'd probably waste it in a vain attempt to teach people how to fill out a ballot.
Nope, Begger Thy Neighbor is the way to go. It's always worked for us. Don't give me any more of your fancy theorizing about keeping my money in your home.
Sincerely,
Don Brown
P. S. I can get you a good deal on a gas grill. My neighbor makes them in his basement and has run out of customers here in Gadsden County. He's looking to expand.
Thank you, you make my points much better than I could ever hope to. It's amazing to me that two adults can be having a grown up discussion with a polite exchange of differences and someone can turn it into a name calling session.
It's okay to disagree with the facts I've stated, but you know as well as I do they're accurate. I must admit, those are some powerful words. But, that's all they are, just words
Steve K
republican
Edited 10/13/2002 8:03:34 PM ET by krumy
Steve,
"republican"
Ya THINK!!!!
Rich
Rich,
I know it's hard to believe, a republican that sees something besides pennies, whew, what a novel concept. Sometimes I can hardly believe it myself. Worse part is, I work for a living and don't feast off of someone else's labor. I hurt myself everytime I vote!! Here's another radical thought for a rep, sometimes there are just more important issues than money.
Steve K
Steve,
All good points. I really don't have a problem with overseas manufacture so long as they provide decent wages, don't rape the environment, and don't engage in unfair trade practices. In the examples I mentioned with Canadian goods, the complaints have revolved around their government's subsidies of those goods (pulp, steel, potatoes) and then flooding the American market at prices we could never match.
Earlier in this thread I had mentioned a local Emerson plant that makes Rigid tools. While their labor practices aren't nearly as bad as those of any foreign sweat shop, nevertheless, they fail to pay their employees a decent, living wage and treat them like dirt. (I have a friend who works there who gets filters for my Craftsman shop vac. They cost $15 at Sears and he buys them for me at the for 50 cents each! Can you say "rip-off"?)
Guess a person need to do a bit of research on these companies and their products if one wishes to follow some principles of social and economic justice in one's ordinary life.
I really can't see these things in terms of liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican as some of the earlier posts do. To me, it's a matter of what's right and what's wrong, and the same principles apply whether we're talking about government policy, foreign trade, corporate practice, or individual behavior. Patriotism, getting the most for my money, etc. have to take a back seat to what is moral and ethical.
Jeff
Edited 10/13/2002 11:01:54 PM ET by Jeff K
I do try and support local business
Agreed. Steve. I spend more money, over the long haul *lots* more money shopping and buying at our local saw sharpening/tool store here in my community in spite of the fact there's a Home Depot and Lowe's within a half mile from the place. If I and their other loyal customers don't or didn't then they'd cease to exist. Why should that be a concern to me or any of their other customers?
Service!
Plane and simple, service. Within two initial visits to this shop they new me by first name. I also knew the first names of the counter people. I didn't buy anything from them until I'd been in to 'window shop' at least a half dozen times. Whoever was behind the counter was always willing to take and spend the time to answer questions and give advice on tool selection.
Service!
On one occasion (only) I made a $1200 purchase that once set up in the shop I wasn't sure I was satisfied with. The mere mention of my opinion on the next visit to the store and there was no hesitation as far as returning the item. The staff at this place *knows* tools, knows saw sharpening and stocks only high quality stuff. Blades, drill bits, small stuff along with the bigger machines (although inventory is limited to available space).
Although their prices are sometimes or often higher than Amazon or other mail order sources, they also often will *meet* those prices. And *still* provide the customer care service.
Service!
These people know their products. They're not above telling you where to go to get an item they don't carry even though that place might be a competitor.
Service!
Anyone in the Seattle area that gets to the east side now and then should stop by Eastside Saw on Bel-Red road. Tell Kevin I sentcha.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Steve,
I understand your point, and agree to a point, but it gets lost for me when I have to read a contiguous block of type with no paragraph breaks.
I'm sorry my friend, but these old, tired eyes just don't work well enough to separate out the meaning even though I can still read the individual words. It all just kinda merges into a huge blob of words.
I would really appreciate it if, all of you, as well as Steve, would take this into account when composing your posts. Paragraph breaks used to seperate the thoughts/ideas in a post into managable units would go a long way to making your points clear to me.
Thanks, guys and gals, for your consideration.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Lee, Sorry
And I'll try and remember that. Will it still be a rant if I do that? :)
Steve K
krumy wrote: And I'll try and remember that.
Will it still be a rant if I do that? :)
Of course it will. I wouldn't downgrade a good rant just because it uses good formatting.
Good evening, my friend.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
BTW, if you want to sell your SS equipment for $400 ... I don't know where you live, but I'll drive there to pick it all up at that price.
Benjamin, i could JUST KISS YOU!!!!! You come pick it up and i'll take you to Glenn's Cafe for some real home-made pie to boot! Seriously, are you interested? I'm south of Missoula, MT...where be you?
Or i'll ship it to you! You send me a check or M.O. for $400, then i'll send it COD for shipping, you sell it for $2000 on eBay and i won't even ask for a split--heck of a deal! It should go UPS with the legs/casters in another box...oh, thank-you, thank-you, thank-you for saving me the trouble of advertising it and entertaining customers in my shop!
Retaining tolerances? Horizontal boring? Did i suggest anything was wrong with that? Nope, solid as a rock--that's just where i store my clamps, on a block behind the fence. The table's snugged up against the tailstock only bec i had the fan on today, kept blowing it out of alignment. Until i cash your check, i have not a single quibble with which to advance the distaff side of the SS debate. <G>
The best airplane factories are in the United States.
Boeing airplanes are built with around 50% foreign components. Her is just one example. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200006/09/eng20000609_42587.html
Edited 10/10/2002 6:33:44 PM ET by Tom
Also, wasn't it lobbying by Boeing and McDonald Douglass that kept the SST out of the US under the ozone guise? Aerobus sells a lot of planes also. I think you'd be in for a lot of arguments from those in the know about which is a better planejet. Personally, I haven't a clue.
Don
I prefer boeing aircraft myself but I have limited experience with airbus. I did find airbus aircraft easier to work on from an access point of view. Some areas seemed to be better though out for the mechanic. I do know that Rolls Royce engines are far more reliable that any of the American options of comparable size.
1) more American cars were sold in the US, so more are still running; 2) There is a dearth of repair parts available for Japanese cars of that time period (very real possibility if you've ever attempted to get a part for a Japanese car over 5 years old); 3) American cars of that time period really weren't as bad as you'd like everyone to believe.
I agree with your first two assumptions, but with the third I disagree; 1970's era American cars and trucks were really bad.
You get what you pay for in tools or anything else. I have yet to see any drill that comes close to a Milwaukee - and I don't care who makes it in either AC or battery powered. Porter Cable and Bosch both come close in some categories but the Milwaukee products are still better - and I own PC, Bosch, and DeWalt drills; and have used Makita and Hitachi products.
I also have a Milwaukee cordless drill that I feel is a great tool, however, I hope your enthusiasm for Milwaukee products is not based on the assumption that they are all made in the USA because my Milwaukee drill is made in Germany.
I had forgotten about Milwaukee. Great tools.
Jeff
Man, what a refreshing opinion. I too, get sick and tired of people who only want to shop price. Sometimes I think I'll scream if I see one more "HF $4.00 table saw, anygood?" Unfortunately, the combination of fair wages, stupid laws and illegal dumping by other coutries has made it all but impossible for American/Canadian companies to compete. Did you know that a company not based in the US pays no Fed. Income taxes? That's one reason so many American have "Ghost" subsidiaries overseas? Add to that laws that protect our safety and the envirorment that make doing business more expensive. It's no secret that some forign Governments illegally subsidize their industries so they can undercut our prices. If all that weren't bad enough our own government actually has subsidized foreign manufacturing. It's amazing that we have any industry at all in this country.
Steve K.
I started with a Jet cabinet saw, upgraded to a Delta Unisaw, then made the ultimate jump to the Powermatic 66 (made in Tennessee). I paid over $2,000 for this saw, and do you know what? - It was worth every penny!! Having used the best, I would never settle for anything less.
No different for woodworking: You get what you pay for.
"Having used the best, I would never settle for anything less."
Joesph,
Have you ever used an old Oliver, tannewitz, etc.? I think you might be mildly surprised.
Don
Don,
True. But you may have stepped into a different classification with those references. As a comparison, I would tend to pair a Unisaw with the PW 66 rather than an Altendorf.
Joesph,
I don't think the Unisaw has ever been made out of the states has it? I understand what you're getting at, but there is always a bigger, badder kid on the block lest we forget our humble beginnings. ;^)
Don
Don,
I see your point as well. The majority of my power tools were made overseas, and frankly I love all of them. I might take some offense to Benjamin's comment that the Taiwan-made machinery is cheap or a "rip-off". Not entirely so. My Jet cabinet saw was a very good saw, in fact it received Nial Barret's vote out of the lot in FW's cabinet saw review (the mother of all reviews) a couple of years back. I also feel that good results are not always guaranteed simply by owning the priciest thing on the market. There needs to be more "man" in the term craftsman, don't you think? I saved my nickels and pennies to buy the Powermatic because of the quality more than anything else. It is no more powerful than the Unisaw nor can it do anything different in action than the Jet. The differences are small but make all the difference. At first glance, you would only notice that the saw is a different color, maybe. There are however, things that you notice as you use the saw: lower-gauge steel, a finer fit and finish, careful welding, a polished surface. In fact, you can get under the saw and adjust the massive trunion as if you were working on an old muscle car. The blade guard is steel, not plastic. The little things. I suppose what Benjamin is saying and what was echoed later is that quality is being sacrificed for price, and that the last few remaining companies who have chosen the former are soon to be a thing of the past. I don't have a lot of money to buy tools, but I do hold off until I can afford something of good quality. DeWalt rather than Ryobi, etc. Sure, I know there will always be something bigger and better, and I do think there is a point where you should settle. PS - My Delta shaper was made in the USA, but the fence system, dust shroud, and hold downs which came with it featured crude welding, joints, and seems. All three came in a single box that was inside the larger shaper box. At closer inspection, I noticed a Taiwan label on the side. Sheesh.
Joseph,
You're a very smart man, indeed. The Powermatic has more beef in the components. It is heavier, finer metal, truer table. Again ... one pays for what one gets. If quality and accuracy (one begets the other) is important -- save your pennies!
I am not a proponent of buying American for patriotic reasons - it's just that I believe American manufacturers of woodworking tools and accessories are superior to the sweat shops of China and Taiwan.
To another Knotter ... the Roller Table for woodworking shops was, indeed, designed and manufactured by HTC Products.
To another Knotter ... yes the ripoffs of Clayton's oscillatng spindle sanders do an okay job. Put pressure against the spindle and watch it bend out of precise vertical to the table! Not on the Clayton. Again, how important is accuracy to you as a woodworker.
Caution: most every woodworking journalist that reviews a tool gets it free. How unbiased can one be when the product you are reviewing is free?
Benjamin
"Joseph,
You're a very smart man, indeed. The Powermatic has more beef in the components. It is heavier, finer metal, truer table. Again ... one pays for what one gets. If quality and accuracy (one begets the other) is important -- save your pennies"
Ben Powermatic is now owned by Jet..Hmmmm makes you wonder why... price , quality. maybe customer service..Well i dont know for sure but I do have a idea.
My thoughts on this matter are simple, the power tool companies in this country have been sitting on their heinies living on their reps that they made about 50-60 years ago. The foriegn companies such as Jet came in and offered both quality abd customer service. the foreign tool companies are doiing to the american tool companies much like Toyota and Nissan did to GM and Chrysler. So what do the American companies do. they have the tools made in other countries such as taiwan and and assemble them here to beat the manufactureing /labor cost and then claim they are american made. Much like Powermatic learned they have to compete. Ya cant blame the consumer for buying a good product for a good price. I personally dont need a high dollar clayton sander for my needs all I need is a attachment for my drill press. When those companies can compete find if they cant fine thats whats known as free trade. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I agree with you, Ron. Whether we like it or not, we now live in a GLOBAL economy. Consumers worldwide will buy the products they see as being in their own best interest and market forces will determine the winners and losers.
I was a partner in a small computer store which served a rather small and isolated rural area for 10+ years. We offered a better built computer than Dell, Gateway, or Fedco, but to do so we had to charge more. Essentially, we built the computer equivelent to the PM66, though, admittedly, the component parts were all manufactured in Taiwan, as were those in the Dell, etc, computers. We always kept the price fair, and never made any huge profit, but we needed to make enough to cover any warranty problems that might crop up, as well as our overhead, and, of course, a pittance to take home.
A little over a year ago we had to close the store. We could not sell our higher quality product against the falling prices charged by the biggies. People in general no longer understood the difference in terms of absolute quality, but they did have a strong perception of VALUE, that is, value in their eyes, and price was a very important component of that evaluation. Of course, we did have our die-hard supporters, and they were wonderful, but there weren't enough of them to keep us afloat.
Quality as the dominant market force can only thrive in a rather stratified society. The finest artists of the Renaissance all had patrons. As human society has become more egalitarian, markets become more and more driven by PERCEIVED VALUE.
Perceptions are everything. What the marketplace (read the sum of all consumers for a specific product class) perceives as VALUE will become the dominant market force. Note that value, NOT absolute quality, drives the marketplace.
Japanese competition resulted in a major revolution in our domestic automobile industry. But autos are a much larger market than woodworking equipment. Perhaps the PERCEIVED benefit to the few remaining American manufacturers of woodworking machinery of accomplishing the equivelent revolution, improving quality while simultaneously reducing manufacturing cost, given the limited marketplace, is just not worth the price of making the change.
America is still the leader in very high tech industries, semiconductors, aerospace, etc, but as developing countries retrace our earlier steps through the industrial revolution, they reach a point where, in any given industry, their quality is ADEQUATE, and their labor costs are considerably lower than ours, and it becomes beneficial for companies, even our own American companies, to move those particular functions elsewhere. Its just the working out of the global economic market forces. We, as individual woodworkers, are pretty powerless to affect this in any significant way.
The entire machinery manufacturing industry is affected by, and is affecting, this trend. I just got a catalog from Sunhill in the mail today. I have an interest in their 3hp shaper, their 8" jointer, their mini-power-feeder, and maybe their 15" or 20" planers. Everything else they make, by FAR the great bulk of their products, is way beyond my needs, intended for massive milling operations producing millions of feet of cheap finished molding or s4s pine/fir construction wood. If they can build such heavy industrial quality machinery, surely they can manufacture an 8" jointer to quite adequate specs for any commercial or hobby woodworker.
My personal choice of whether to buy one of their shapers is insignificant in the overall picture of Sunhill's operation, and even less in affecting the global economic forces directing the movement to Taiwan of much heavy equipment manufacturing. In short, it's gonna happen anyway.
Happy woodworking!
--
Lee
Ron,
Just a brief clarification. Powermatic is not owned by Jet. Both Jet and Powermatic are owned by WMH, a company headquartered in Austria.
Jeff
Ron,
Just a brief clarification. Powermatic is not owned by Jet. Both Jet and Powermatic are owned by WMH, a company headquartered in Austria.
Jeff
Either way Powermatic (formally a American company) was sold and bought by a foriegn company..... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I agree, my P.M.66 is the best saw I've ever had (of 3).
Ben we're going to have to have a wood working BBQ at your place some day & inspect all your tools to see if they are all painted red white & blue. He He just kidding. I won't tell yu what I have in my shop but it is the best I can afford & I do wait a reasonable time to get reasonable equipment. It's my hobby & not a business.
Sick 'n tired of ripoffs!
Benjamin
And I am sick and tired of being sick and tired.
Don,
Time for Rejuvex, or Geritol, or whatever it is we're supposed to use now.
Jeff
Time for Rejuvex, or Geritol, or whatever it is we're supposed to use now.
Flomax keeps me going, so to speak. And it's probably Made in the USofA!
Don,
OK, I think we'll stop the flow now before this gets out of control, er........ let's put a plug in it....... oh boy, we'll just stop.
Jeff
Ben--
You stirred my curiosity about Shop Smith. Would you please answer some questions?
I've never seen a Shop Smith, so my questions are based on pictures and written information on their Web site.
The machine appears to have been designed primarily as a lathe or horizontal boring tool. Those are valuable capabilities, but not ones I think most serious woodworkers would deem of first order importance. Because of the focus on lathe-like capability, the other functions seem almost to be afterthoughts.
The table saw--the very function I believe most woodworkers would consider of primary importance--looks particularly weak. It is powered by a 13-amp, 110v motor and has a small basic table made of something other than cast iron.
The really weak feature of the table saw is that it has a fixed blade at 90 degrees to the table. I gather that the table itself can be tilted to achieve miter cuts. That method seems fraught with danger to me. I believe it is outlawed under European safety rules (but you know those Europeans). So even if a miter cut can be made, there is nothing but the tiny table to support the stock during the operation. The size of stock that can be mitered must be severely limited.
When we talk about quality of machines, shouldn't we focus on functional quality rather than some perceived quality of construction? Granted, construction features usually contribute to functional quality, but it is the latter that ends up being of the most importance.
Would you care to comment on the functional quality of the Shop Smith, particularly the table saw?
Don,
When Dr. Goldschmidt conceived the concept of "one motor, one arbor and one stand" to power several tools, his first concern was a table saw. An obvious conclusion since all boards must be either ripped or crosscut.
Because he was dealing with a fixed arbor it became necessary for the table to tilt. This dictated size of table.
Table was originally made of cast iron but is now cast aluminum which is machined and milled. Not sure of the tolerances but deemed flat by most.
On the MARK V models made since about late 80's the table was enlarged.
SS has a miter gauge has a safety clamp-down grip- that clamps the workpiece firmly against the table and face of the gauge when sawing miters, bevels, compounds etc. Length of workpiece is determined by the floor to ceiling axis along the plane of the table tilt. I did compound cuts for all the ceiling trim in an old farmhouse I restored on a MARK V.
Actually, the length of the MARK V was a result of the need to tilt the motor mount tubes upright for drilling. The idea for the lathe, according to history, actually came to him much later when he got the idea for to insert a tail-stock on one end. This required a mounting method and he came up with the bench-end tubes; and, this opened up his thinking for an auxilliary spindle to power other tools mounted on these bench-ends. Thus, bandsaw, jigsaw, jointer, belt sander, etc.
Back to the table. You asked about power. The MARK V motor pulls 25 to 30 amps on startup then smooths to the lower number. It's a powerful motor that develops 2 hp. To my experience, it takes 2X's in all woods just fine. If going thru a 2x12 oak piece you will need to take it easy. Remember the blade does the cutting. I've heard of guys trying to do this with a plywood blade and then complain that it bogs down.
Then there are the table extensions which can be placed in the end-bench tubes on either side of the table when doing flat sawing.
Frankly, I was a little ticked when SS went to the larger table. zI thought the older table was perfect. When you have a tool this versatile, something has to be sacrificed. Besides, one can always find another place to lay project blueprints and books :)
On the cast iron vs cast aluminum. I bet if your run-of-the-mill table saw manufacturers could get away with aluminum, they would. They cannot because they need the weight to hold the saw down. The MARK V motor, stand, way tubes, quadrant assembly, etc. all weigh enough that the table can be made of aluminum.
I can honestly say that the only people I have ever heard complain about the size of the SS table is people who do not own one. Once an owner gets use to it they have no problems with table size. There is a way to compensate for everything.
Actually, the MARK V's most outstanding strength is its FUNCTIONAL QUALITY as a multi-functional, multi-purpose piece of machinery that is made right here in the good 'ol US of A (yes, some of the screws and few of the castings are made overseas today, but not on the one's I own)!
Benjamin
If it ain't American --- it's junk!
Just curious, why would you own more then one?
Don
Thank you for the explanation of design and manufacturing factors. My quaestion was about functional quality, but you've merely asserted that it is good.
Can you supply us with a list, or even a name or two, of professional furniture makers--defined only as those who rely on their equipment to earn their living--who use a Shop Smith (presumably because of its superior quality) in preference to a conventional table saw?
I don't agree with you that 2 HP is "powerful" for a table saw.
Benjamin,
You have an interesting take on this subject. I have known several (former) owners of shopsmith equipment. They all cursed the things and found them to be faulty at every task. These people knew their way around machinery. They all either threw them out or got rid of them for pennies on the dollar. I have never known anyone to have anything but low opinion of the things.
Rich
Rich, I happen to be a shopsmith owner as well, for probably about 20 years now. I'm on my second one, the first one was destroyed in a home flood along with several other stand alone tools. Incidently, the statements you made can be applied to many former RAS owners as well, myself included. The very first "major" power tool I bought was a sears RAS way back in the early seventies. I pretty much gave it away. To be fair, I'll admit that I just picked up an old DeWalt RAS and intend to use it for cutoff work and dado's on long stock. BTW, I've been browsing the different woodworking forums for about 4 years now and I've also seen many of the same comments in regard to jointers.
I'm not afraid to admit that the table saw feature is the weakest part of the machine. It is functional. Is it as good as the good contracter saws available today? No way. I do believe that for many years though the table saw feature actually had more capacity for ripping than most contracter saws on the market. I believe it's somewhere in the range of 48", not sure but that's close. It's only fairly recently that the high quality, high capacity, aftermarket and oem fences have become available to home woodworkers.
As for the other features on the shopsmith, they are, I think extremely functional. The drill press feature is more suited to woodworking that most any other out there. It was designed for woodworking, with the miter slots and tilting table that also accepts a fence. Most drill press tables move up and down and tilt sideways. On the SS the table tilts on a different plane than others. It also is adjustable up and down as the others. An added feature is that the table also can be moved by means of a rack and pinion at a right angle to the plane of the drill bit. That's a great feature for the times when the fence is used and makes it very easy to center the bore. Because of the way the table moves up and down on two rails different size parts can be machined without losing a setup. Not sure but I don't think that's true of most other presses.
The disk sander is a 12" sander, variable speed and moveable by a quill. Most "homeowner" units are 6 or 8" and have a small table to work off of. One neat thing about the shopsmith setup is this. When you make a table saw cut, say for a miter, or compound miter the unit can be switched to several other modes with out losing the setup. It could be switched to the disk sander and the miter could be "fine tuned" using the sander and advancing the quill to just touch the machined surface. Then, again without losing the setup, the unit can switched to the horizontal boring function and the part drilled to accept dowels for gluing.
The lathe has decent capacity for a homeowner unit and for the occasional turner is way beyond adequate. It is variable speed as well.
The horizontal boring feature is the one that I would really miss though. I have used the shopsmith in a professional capacity in an antique restoration and refinishing shop. That feature is ideal for repair work involving broken spindles. Combined with the lathe feature fairly long stock can easily be center drilled and aligned perfectly. This feature is also very good for doweling boards for glue ups. That's not as important now that biscuit joiners are the way to go.
As a former union journeyman carpenter, I "know my way around machinery" a little too. IMO, the design of the shopsmith is nothing short of genius.
My main table saw is a Delta contracters saw with a 30" unifence and there is no way the shopsmith table saw can compare with that kind of machine, no way to argue that it can. With that said however, I feel the other features on a shopsmith more than hold their own against many other dedicated machines that are available. The shopsmith will always have a place in my shop.
Steve K
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