I’ve about had it with this stuff. Just finished a difficult set of chairs and was as careful as I could be short of completely masking them . But come time to finish them the %$#^%$@#@ glue spots show up all over the place. I was so mad I was about ready to start smashing a chair.
Ergo I’m thinking of switching to West epoxy for all general work whereas previously I only used it for joints that I messed up and didn’t fit right. Been trying to think of any reason why I shouldn’t do this. Aside from the fact it takes a tad longer to mix it up, I can’t think of any serious negatives. The huge positive is that this wonderful stuff doens’t leave stains. and is a good gap filler to boot.
Anybody else use epoxy for general purpose? Or know of any good reasons not to do this?
Replies
One thing that you could try with the yellow glue that might help would be to add a little color to it. I've seen this done in furniture factories where the yellow glue was tinted brown with a water-soluable colorant or dye. The brown glue was pretty hard to miss when it was dry, simplifying the prep process considerably, and if you go with a medium brown it't not that easy to spot under the average stain even if you do miss some or there's a crack or something that you had no choice but to load up with glue. You could actually custom tint yellow glue to approximate the color of the wood as it looks with finish on it. I've seen this done before. Not exactly an efficient way of doing things unless you do a heck of a lot of work with just one species of wood and without any stain. But... it is doable.
Just a thought...
Regards,
Kevin
But wont you have the same problem with the epoxy?
Can you not sand or scrape the glue spots off when you find them- When I'm staining that's what I do take my knife and scrape it off so it will take stain.
Something that might help you talking about chair making- your rungs or stretchers bevel the ends so the excess glue has some where to go besides on the surface.
Or you could use less Glue that might solve all your problems.
Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins
No, epoxy does not make stains as it has the same effect as any oil-based finish. Whereas with yellow, being water-based the stains are almost impossible to see until finish is applied. Most of the problem was from transferrance from my fingers in the hurry-up of clamping. If I'd was able to see it, I would have removed it before hand. Even then, with open gained wood, the stains go deep so you got to dig holes to get rid of it completely.
The problem I have with epoxy (west system) is that the glue line is so much more noticeable (dark line) than a PVA joint. On the other hand occasionally the PVA line will rise as it absorbs moisture, months after the piece is finished. If you add the mirco fillers to the epoxy, it makes a great gap filler but it will also hold a perfect joint apart and really show itself. I've been using Titebond for years, but now I'm experimenting because of the raised glue line problem. I just bought a container of Weldwood Plastic Resin glue, a powder which is mixed with water. It's downside is that it contains formaldehyde.
Bill
Let me tell you as someone who worked for a shop that built lots of stuff for yachts, epoxy glue will cause the same finishing problems as any other glue. Anything that seals the pores of wood will cause stains to be affected in those spots. No matter what glue you use, if you don't clean up finger prints, globs and squeezeout, you will have a finishing problem. Even though you may think that epoxy colors the wood, you will still be able to see the glue when you put on a finish. I wish it were so simple as to just use epoxy glue.
For the future, wipe your project down with mineral spirits, naphtha or alcohol before finishing. Use enough liquid to color the wood. This will preview the final color of the wood if you are using a clear finish, as well as highlighting any deficiencies in your sanding and, it will make any glue show up. All these chemicals will evaporate leaving no residue. The alcohol evaporates faster if you want to get the finishing faster.
You might also take a look at the current issue of Fine Woodworking. There is an article on how to glue and how to deal with squeeze out.
Edited 8/28/2003 7:09:00 PM ET by Howie
<<You might also take a look at the current issue of Fine Woodworking. There is an article on how to glue and how to deal with squeeze out<<
Masking my work is precisely what I don't want to do. Fortunately, I never stain anything, so no, epoxy causes zero problems in that regard.
I"m an expert at finishing and almost always get it perfect, but when it comes to handling glue there is aparently something in my psyche that causes me to become a total clutz. No matter how careful I try to be, I end up with the stuff all over everything, including myself. Since I learned that vinegar is a solvent for epoxy and no longer have to mess with acetone, I'm determined to switch.
BTW, epoxy is easily tinted so that you never have to worry about overly visible glue lines. It can also be mixed with dust from your sander to make an excellent filler.
I have only used the paste types before, which are troublesome to spread over large areas. It seems to me that the West product is less viscous and could be brushed on???
I have found that the titebond extend is far superior to the standard yellow titebond. It gives you longer assembly times and has a lighter color. It also seems thinner but actually has a higher fill capacity and is stronger too. Get some small natural bristle brushes from a crafts store and put some glue in a small dish then brush it on. This will help you a lot to place it properly and in the right amounts. Try to get the feel for the proper amounts so that you only get a small amount of squeeze out. Then do your clean up of the squeeze out after the glue is set but still flexible. If you use water and try to clean it up right away you will drive a dilute solution of the glue into the pores of the wood. Keep paper towels and a damp rag handy for cleaning up any mistakes or fouled fingers.
I never have the problems you mentioned. You might want tp try a dye that you add that shows up with a black-light. Available fron Woodworkers supply.
>>I never have the problems you mentioned. You might want tp try a dye that you add
that shows up with a black-light. Available fron Woodworkers supply. <<
I don't have big problems with ordinary work, but have you ever glued up a half-dozen chairs each containing 21 separate pieces that have to be assembled all at once? The idea of being careful or masking around all those joints just isn't feasible.
The problem here is quite simply the glue. It seems everyone wants to convince me that yellow glue is really Ok. Frankly, I think it's terrible that people have to go to so much effort to prevent this serious problem. Granted, if you're stainng your work you are stuck since any type will cause staining problems. The solution there is stain before assembly, but finishing before assembly is not practical or I'd do that. It's easier to keep glue off wood than trying to keep varnish or oil off glue joints.
Since no one has presented any serious problems, I'll go ahead and give it a try. Who knows, maybe I'll be back to the yellow plague again.
Whenever I make chairs, I always use slow set epoxy. It it by far the best adhesive for that purpose. In the shop I used to be involved with we manufactured a line of semi-custom furniture. We needed an adhesive that was slow setting and permanent and did not require tight clamping. Epoxy best fits the bill. But, we still needed to finish the chairs and they required careful sanding.
Have you thought about hot hide glue? It sets up fast as soon as it begins to cool. Very little clamping neccessary. This glue cleans up easily and takes a stain. Not sure about gap filling properties. I have not used hot hide glue since high school but will use it for a pair of chairs next month. I am not an expert on hide glue, but thought this might help you. Small crock pots can be used for heating glue.
Mike
Edited 8/29/2003 5:47:32 PM ET by MIKEK4244
I also use hide glue, except i use the bottled franklin stuff. Just buy a little as you need it. Great to work with and does not cause problems for me.
While hot hide glue can be stained, it can only be stained with water dye stains, not pigments. And, hide glue will still cause an unsightly mark as the dye is not absorbed to the same extent as it is in virgin wood.
Also, for chairs, I prefer a slow set epoxy. Hide glue is very brittle and tends to fail when used in applications that get lots of variable stress. Over time, it also absorbs moisture and fails. Epoxy glue is forever in most cases. As I mentioned above, in the shop I was involved with, we only used epoxy on chairs because of the safety factor.
I do some work with epoxy. At the moment I buy small tubes of Araldite (a UK brand) which is mixed in equal parts. I use the slow setting type as it sets harder. When I start to use more then I will look at some of the makes that are available in larger containers.
In order to make Araldite (and, I assume, all other epoxies) more workable you must apply heat with either a heat gun or a hairdryer. This has two benefits, first is that it makes the adhesive less viscous and therefore easier to add fillers and easier to apply. The other benefit is that the heat drives out the millions of tiny air bubbles that get trapped in the adhesive as it is mixed. You can tell when all the air is gone because the epoxy becomes transparent. Getting rid of the air makes the epoxy stronger.
The slow setting gives plenty of time to make adjustments and the gap filling properties are also useful, especially in chair making
John
Howie, whilst I agree that epoxy resin is an excellent glue, it's not a glue that lasts 'forever'. It eventually fails, just like any other glue, and I suspect that's because wood joints such as the mortise and tenon between the side rail and back leg of a chair keep expanding and contracting as the seasons change, and then there's the stress of people abusing chairs by leaning back on them, for instance.
When it comes to the normal repair cycle of about 60 years for a half well made dining chair in regular use, I prefer to deal with hide glue over epoxy resin, or even any other glue. At least with hide glue, it's easy to remove and clean up the joint in readiness for regluing, whereas a lump of decayed and cracked epoxy is just a lump to be beaten off any way you can. But of course, getting that lump of epoxied tenon out of the mortice usually means destroying the mortice resulting in additional work.
I've just recently repaired a Charles and Ray Eames designed chair made by Herman Miller. It's the famous lounge chair and ottoman with three plywood ‘shells’ and can be found at this link, http://www.hermanmiller.com/product/graphics/classic/lounge.JPG
Herman Miller themselves were awfully sniffy about their secret processes, including the bonding of the parts, but any fool with half a brain knows that the bloody thing is whacked together with epoxy resin, and that the finish is tinted pre-catalysed lacquer, or similar, over dye. Here the epoxy resin failed between the seat shell and the back shell.
There is a rubber 'shock mount' that links the two parts, and this is epoxied to the seat shell, and machine screwed to the back shell—but of course Herman Miller wouldn’t tell me that even though I could see as plain as day that’s what it was.
In my research and communications with Herman Miller to establish my best course of action to effect a decent (unguaranteed) repair, I found out that this connection between the seat and the back is a well known weakness and common failure point.
Apparently, the local dealer here in Houston gets these chairs back in broken at this point anywhere between one week after delivery or up to 20 years later.
You’d think Herman Miller would address the design fault and include some mechanical strengthening to the joint, but that seems to not be an option, ha, ha. Slainte.
Website
Richard, how're things going in the auld country?
In the testing we did for an interior/furniture desinger, we ended up with a somewhat flexible epoxy adhesive formulation. You are correct that M&T joints may always fail at some point but using the more flexible epoxy, we thought, would significantly increase the longevity. Of course, epoxy never stops curing and someday it may get brittle enough to fail. I never saw it on the stuff we made but maybe it will occur at some point.
My Charles and Ray Eames story: The IBM Pavilion at the '63/64' New York Worlds Fair was designed by Eames and Eero Saarinen (some combo huh?). We had about 40 of those Eames chairs in the pavilion lounge. At the end of the fair, when the movers showed up to take them out, only about 10 where there. Never did know where they dissappeared to. Myself and some others spent the next year trying to find them. In my 30 years at IBM, the question would come up every so often. I.M. Pei spec'ed Eames chairs for some lounges in a building he did for us but we decided to go with some others.
I think the new "StressLess" chairs are more comfortable.
Howie, in my experience, it's not that the epoxy fails as such. How can I describe this? The epoxy resin seems to remain as a contiguous whole, if somehow degraded and cracked, but somewhere down the line it gives up on bonding with the wood.
Usally it seems to remain stuck to the tenon, and it loses its grip on the mortise. That's not always the case, but it seems to be the most common failure. I can't come up with a reasonable reason why this seems to be the case, but in my experience this is what happens. In either case, it's a pig to repair as much destruction needs to go on to get the joint apart. After that, it's a bit of a lottery regarding cost to the client for a restoration.
I'm not too familiar with flexible epoxy applications. I need to look into that just for my own interest if nothing else.
I wonder what happened to all those Eames chairs, ha, ha? Very comfortable once you get sat down, but they're not easy to get into in the first place, and require some leverage to get out of-- and going by my recent experience, I'll be very wary of just plonking myself down carelessly in one, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha.
I haven't seen the 'Stressless' chairs. Slainte. Website
>>I haven't seen the 'Stressless' chairs.
They are made in Norway but marketed worldwide:
http://www.ekornes.com/index1.htm
Those certainly look comfortable, Howie. I bet I could nod off nicely in one, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
Epoxy
Hi
You should try Ecopoxy First its much more friendly to work with.
It can be found at http://www.ecopoxysystemscanada.com
Please don't use the site for self promotional ads.
don; i did flag
it as inappropriate, but who knows whethr or the system works
ron
don; i did flag
it as inappropriate, but who knows whethr or the system works
ron
I always use yellow glue and thoroughly wipe eveything down with a very wet cloth after gluing. You will be able to see the areas with glue easily and then just scrub them off. I also only use skim coats of glue. If your joints are tight, that is all you need. If they aren't tight, more glue won't help.
Jerry
Further to what Howard said, epoxy will still show up, just less so under an oil based surface finish that happens to be about the same shade of yellow as the epoxy. If you stain, an errant spot of epoxy will show up a lot. Also, on open grained woods, the epoxy will show a smooth spot whereas the rest of the wood will still show the pores. I use epoxy a lot and I like it for its predictable cure time; something that comes in handy when doing laminations. I've recently switched to MAS epoxy. They make a resin called F.L.A.G. which is already thickened, so you don't need to add fillers to use it as glue.
Epoxy isn't perfect though. You have to mix it in specific quantities and what ever is left over is just waste and it's prety expensive stuff when compared to Titebond. Also, epoxy needs lower clamping pressure than yellow glue which means that if you have to crank down a bit on the clamp to get a joint to come together, that part of the joint will probably fail.
Try using less glue. A good joint needs only have little beads of glue come out to adhere properly. I toured the Martin Guitar factory just last Friday and I was amazed how LITTLE glue they used. They put glue on guitar braces by rolling the brace over a little drum that's partially submerged in yellow glue. The brace ends up with very little glue and the joint has virtually no squeeze out, but the brace is on there for good and subject to stress and vibration for it's entire life.
sorry
Dude, does not matter what you use, if it gets on the wood you don't want it to and dries you will have a problem. Now, I can suggest a couple things. One, I don't tape off really and have managed to get over the throw as much gule on it as possible mind set as well. I use a sponge and a tub of warm water and and after clamping, I wash it down good and get all that glue off while its wet. Then you sand and you wont have issues (for the most part) The other thing is test before the finish. I wipe it down with mineral spirits and if you missed some it will show. I did a couple projects that I knew once it dried getting any glue off would be dang hard and did not want it to show up when finishing. I bought some tight bond flourescent. They put an agent in it that you can go over your piece with a black light and it will stick out like a sore thumb. I really liked it. Even being careful I still let some stray that would have shown up when the finish hit it. It really stood out when I hit it with the black light. Needless to say it finished perfectly.
it is an 8 year old
thread that you guys are responding to'
if one has to use epoxy to put a chair together then then why not ry steel and welding them together. either you are not joining properly or are insecure in what you require to do the job; something like the guy that has to wear suspenders and a belt at the same time
ron
Glue
David,
Did you ever solve your glue problem?
Mel
August 2003
I sure hope David wasn't holding his breath waiting for your advice, Mel. Eight years is a long time to do that. G.
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