Replies

1. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 15, 2003 05:51am | #1

   Ekarnes,

            Forget the antiques.  I say that as one who has plenty of old tools. I started collecting them (to use not to look at) about ten years ago.  Since then there has been a resurgence of quality new tools come on the market.  Names such as Lie-neilson for planes along with Veritas (they have some great stuff) .  Highland Hardware and others offer new tools which were designed by Mike Dunbar though they are made by others.  These are great for chairmakers.  They also offer some 7 or 8 different manufacturers planes from cheap to expensive.  The Lie-Neilson planes will out perform the Stanley bedrock series that they are based on.  They have better machining, more weight, thicker blades made of A-2 tool steel and perform extremely well without having to do a ton of tuning.  Hone the blade, spend ten minutes lapping  the sole and you are in business.

                 Veritas just came out with a version of the Stanley no.80 which works far better than the 80.  I know. I have 2 80's and 2 of the new Veritas version.  They also are making a metal bodied spokeshave which is patterned after the old wood bodied shaves.  I bought one of them recently and love it.  I will say that when it comes to handsaws you are better buying used, assuming you know what you are looking for.  They are still in plentiful supply and as such can be had rather reasonable on Ebay and at antique shops..  Plenty of old Disstons and Warrenteed Superior's available both of which are good saws.  Stay away from Keen Cutters because they are highly sought after by the collectors and as such are rather expensive.  Unless you get a bargain of course.  There are a few old wood moulding planes in usable condition left,  but most of what's out there are wall hangers.  You can make your own if needed.  I would recommend you can pick up a Stanley 45 with cutters(don't pay more than 200$ for a "user grade tool") as they are quite useful in the shop and the modern equivalent made by cliffton is over 600 bucks.  Just use your head, don't pay excessively,and don't buy an antique when there is a modern equivalent that performs better and costs the same or less.

          Once you start to use a well tuned plane/ saw/spokeshave etc. there is no going back.  Power tools are great but many times the hand tool is more efficient.  You should have both.

1. 
   racwood | Jan 15, 2003 07:03am | #3

   Professor,

   I have to agree wholeheartedly.  There are some wacky prices out there, especially on ebay.  I've been scouring arround for a Stanley 62 but they are all going for $150 -200.  I beleive the comparable new (and better?) LN is about $225!  That's where I'm heading with my $.  Same with the old Bedrock series.  It must be collectors with $ for anyone looking for a TOOL should have better sense.  I've put together a decent collection of WORKING planes from ebay (blocks, smoothing, fore, jointer, scrub) but I feel I've about run my limit.  For my desired scapers, bullnose and low angle planes I think I'm going new.  Maybe somebody someday will pay a crazy price for MY old tool!  RACWOOD

1. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 15, 2003 10:35pm | #8

   Rac,

         In my view it makes no sense to shell out big bucks for an old tool when there is something better new, and for the same or just a little more money.  Assuming of course you are buying the tool to use.

                                                     Mark

2. 
   forestgirl | Jan 15, 2003 06:24am | #2

   Keep in mind, one inflated sale price on eBay does not a trend make.  It's not unusual for the gavel to fall at an absurd level on one particular item now again.  It can be due to "ghost" bids by friends of the seller or a couple of newbies bidding against each other and not knowing what they're doing or some kids just foolin' around on eBay.

   The thing to do is track several auctions with the item you're interested in before calculating a "going price" for the item.  I'd be surprised if statistically there was a big jump in tool prices -- eBay has brought so many items out of peoples attics in the last several years that the supply side of the equation is stronger than it was earlier.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   mrles | Jan 15, 2003 09:11am | #4

   I've never bought tools on e-bay but I have bought antique pocket watches and Greek and Roman coins and ancient antiques. Watch your step set a price you can live with and learn how to bid. Most items I've bought was in the last 30 seconds. There are a few bargains there but you have to look for them.

   I have found some bargains at pawn shops, make an offer don't pay any attention to the price they have on them, haggle a little. I found several chisels at a pawn shop one a new 2" Stanley in package, I gave 50 cents apiece for them. Garage sales have been pretty good too. The hunt can be as much fun as the find. Don't be shy about making an offer at the antique stores. My wife and I were in San Antonio a few years back at Christmas we wandered into an antique consignment store. I was looking at some Roman artifacts my wife found an antique solitaire diamond over 1 1/2 carets, the lady let me look at it with a loupe, it was flawless, good cut. I don't remember what the price was but I offered her $2000. for it. She said she was sure the owner would never take that for it but she had to call her about the offer. She took it, my wife was quite happy, my checking account wasn't as happy as my wife. I had stopped to look at some Roman tear vials,100.00 a piece, and I didn't get any of those. Don't make an offer unless you are ready to back it up.

   God Bless and Good Luck

   les

4. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 15, 2003 07:02pm | #5

   Hi,

   I think it's the Lie-Nielsens/Cliftons/Veritas's of the world that are the driving force. 5-10 years ago you could get a Stanley Bedrock 605C for about $50-$75. Then woodworkers/collectors become aware of LN's selling for $300. I was actually looking at a Bedrock 605 and said I'd never pay $100 for one and get the LN, but then the reality set in: The Bedrocks are GREAT planes at half the price! So I gladly fork over $150 and feel like I got the bargain of the year.

   Now we have a "bench mark". I'm looking in the Lie-Nielsen catalog right now and it says the N0.5 jack Plane is $300. Anything less than that is a bargain. I'm looking for a Stanley Bedrock 607 and will gladly pay $200 for one where as a few months ago I would not have paid $100. LN is $400 a Clifton $335. And asthetically you can't compare aged Brazilian Rosewood handles with Cherry.

   I guess I'm part of the problem:willing to spend the bucks. But I use them, almost daily.

   My .02

   N

1. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 15, 2003 10:05pm | #6

   >> ... the N0.5 jack Plane is $300. Anything less than that is a bargain.

   Only if it's as good a plane as the Lie-Nielsen.

1. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 15, 2003 10:32pm | #7

   Uncle Dunc,

        Well said, and it aint as good. Period.

                              mark

1. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 16, 2003 06:50am | #10

   Aint as good is certainly deabatable. I took a Hock blade out of my Bailey no.5C and dropped it in the 605. 2 or 3 adjustments I was making perfect length of the board @70" x 1 1/2" in this case, paper thin transparent shavings of QS WO. The Lie-Nielsen can only be as good as that-not better. The going rate for a 605 is closer to $125 I paid $150 as I wanted it NOW. But we're talking $150-$175 less than a Lie-Nielsen and that's the point. In years past the price of antique tool (and I'm talking tools to use not collect) was based on what you could get on any given day at the swap meet. While there are plenty of deals still available by and large they are getting harder to come by. And you have woodworkers like me who want the quality and know what the LN's or Bridge City's are getting.

   I doubt the $400 LN will perform $200 better than a nice Bedrock 607 if you know how to adjust and tune it.

   N

1. 
   PlaneWood | Jan 16, 2003 07:06am | #11

   Could it be that a lot of people have taken their money out of the stock market and started looking elsewhere?  Real Estate, Bonds, Collectibles, ......    ??????

   I, too, have noticed a recent price jump on Ebay for decent planes.

   Remember that on Ebay more people, generally, will be bidding on an item if the 'auction' ends at night or on the weekend.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood

2. 
   kennedy136 | Jan 16, 2003 07:43am | #13

   Notrix,

           You aren't comparing apples to apples if you are installing a hock blade.  Try it on some curly maple or other highly figured wood.  The LN will perform better and is better machined, has more weight which is an advantage for ornery woods (helps the plane to maintain momentum and cuts down on the tendency to chatter).  The LN also has an A-2 steel blade which will maintain its edge longer.  The Bedrock series are good planes but ther is no way that they are as good as the LN or the Cliffton for that matter which are cheaper.  Have you checked out Veritas' new line of planes? they are reasonably priced and have gotten excellent reviews.  The design is a fantastic idea.  I'm going to get a couple of their bench planes. I already have a couple of their block planes and would put them up against the LN's . They cost about a third less.

                                                   Mark

3. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 16, 2003 09:04am | #14

   >You aren't comparing apples to apples if you are installing a hock blade. 

   No I'm comparing $300 to $125 and explaining a rational for the price of old tools. The Hock blades I've been using are the Cryogenically treated A2 same or better that LN. What I used it on was some glue ups with the grain running both directions. That's pretty onery in my book.

   Bottom line is you can tune, tweak, change, learn how to set up properly these old planes to perform quite well enough to justify 1/3-1/2 the price of the LN.

   But hey if moneys no object I'll get the LN but like wise I prefer the rosewood to cherry for the knob and tote. Frankley I still think the old Bedrocks are more asthetically pleasing, but let's see an LN with a 50 year patina and I may change my mind. By that time they will cost $2000 but who cares!

   N

4. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 16, 2003 09:05pm | #15

   Hi,

   Hopefully I'm not coming off as dissing LN. I have the low angle block plane and absolutly love it! It's a work of art. I beleive that 99% of the folks here have heard of the LN's and most are familiar with the price of them. I don't want to be redundant but while a an antique tool swap meet this morning I had my LN catalog with me as I priced older Stanley planes. I found myself willing to pay about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of an LN depending on condition. Case in point I was after a jointer plane-606, 607, or 608. LN's are $350-$400-$450 respectivley. Also to be considered was new modern blade @$35. So I figured $150-$250 for a plane. I found a 606 for $175 so maybe that's the thinking out there amogst dealers. This dealer also threw in a no.77 Mortising gauge so I did ok.

   I was also after a 604 1/2 C and found a great one for $350. The LN is $300 so I'll be getting an LN or look for a similar for $200.

   Anyway that's my logic, how ever flawed, that I use for pricing and shopping for tools.

   HTH

   N

5. 
   UncleDunc | Jan 16, 2003 10:34pm | #16

   Well, not exactly _dissing_. :)

   In your previous message you wrote "Bottom line is you can tune, tweak, change, learn how to set up properly these old planes to perform quite well enough to justify 1/3-1/2 the price of the LN."

   You seem to be discounting the tuning and tweaking Lie-Nielsen has already done. I don't own one, so I'm not speaking from my own experience, but I keep reading the experiences of people who say there's no tuning involved with a new LN. You make sure the iron is sharp, adjust the depth of cut, and go to work.

   So it comes down to the question "What would you rather do with your time?" Or, more crassly, "What's your time worth?" In the olden days, back when I had a job, I figured my time was worth at least $35 an hour. So in the example you gave, $300 LN versus $125 older plane, if I could save five hours of tuning the older plane, I'd be money ahead to buy the LN, even if it weren't a more robust piece of work.

   Now if you don't think your time is worth anything, or if you'd rather spend your time tuning a plane than cutting wood, your perception of the value of the LN will be different. No object in the world, including an LN plane, has any intrinsic value. Value is something that happens inside people's brains.

6. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 16, 2003 11:14pm | #17

   Well...It takes me about 15-45 minutes to "tune" a plane. By that I mean make sure it's all moving smoothly, eliminating backlash etc.. And adjusting the mouth for the wood your using which would still have to be done with a LN. FWW #136 has Garret hack saying you "can't use an LN right out of the box" Took him about 40 minutes to flatten and hone the blade and an additional 10 minutes to tune the cap iron. Only one side was square with his example. Both are square on my 606.

   I'd reject any plane that took too much to get ready. The plane I bought today, a 606, has a flat sole. Blade will take me about 1/2 an hour to shape and hone, add another 20-30 when I get a Hock or LN blade (as well as about $35 to the price). The cap iron could use some work so I figure about 10 minutes there. I could tell the rest was fine by spending about 10 minutes before I purchased it.

   Right now I have more time than money. I'd much rather have a 606 and 25-40 board feet of lumber than an LN. If monies no object I'd have a corral of LN's!

   And remember my entire point of my contribution to this thread is to explain my rational for spending what I do on old tools. And I'm not a collector but a user.

   N

5. 
   lwilliams | Jan 16, 2003 01:47am | #9

   Prelateral Stanley planes are a little rare and bring pretty good prices. The price of these highly collectable old planes is a little volatile. Value depends on who happens to be in the market. Sometimes one plane that looks a little rat-bitten can be worth quite a bit more than one that looks nearly brand new. You have to understand the subtleties.

   If you're looking for an early type Stanley plane to fill a hole in a collection you'll probably be willing to pay quite a bit more for one with an original iron rather than a 10 year old replacement. If you wanted a prelateral Stanley and it didn't have a bead cut in the base of the knob, it's likely you're buying a plane with a replaced knob. You really have to know what's what when you're comparing prices of these things and knowledgeable collectors are pretty picky.

   I don't know of a big increase in the value or selling price of old tools. eBay has had an impact on prices and planes there will usually bring more than the same plane at a collectors' meeting. Real rare items sell high anytime more than one or two knowledgeable people are aware of the tool's availability.

   I think you would benefit from studying old planes a little more or simply accepting that, sometimes, the price may involve more than is obvious to the average person.

6. 
   noone51 | Jan 16, 2003 07:14am | #12

   Good question, I took a couple of Bailey/Stanley transitional planes, cleaned them up and had the metal parts brass plated about a year ago. I gave them back to my dad because they were his dads. Value.... priceless..... Real value.... 20.00 each. I just watched the same planes go on E-bay for over 500.00 each last week...Last year they were burning them this year bozo's are buying them.