I’m designing, and will build, some kitchen cabs for a customer who wants that 50’s era “modern” style (i.e. half overlay plywood doors/drawer fronts with visible ply’s). During our meeting yesterday, I told her that these would be quite easy to build but I would be concerned about them eventually warping, twisting, etc.
Lots of those old 50’s era cabinets lasted for years without problems and I suspect that the quality of the plys had a lot to do with it. The few slab doors I’ve done in the past couple of years failed and they were made from cabinet grade ply and were finished and sealed on all surfaces and edges.
Anyone have any suggestions for a plywood that would stay flat? At this time, she’s thinking Lyptus or Phillipine Mahogany and I suggested that she also look at Alder. The final decision will probably be made based on whichever ply will work best for the doors.
Replies
Hi Dave ,
Will the doors be 3/8" lipped or beveled edge , sounded like the lipped doors is what you want to make .
The quality of the sheets or plywood you use has little to do with the species of veneer usually . I have made many of both types over the years and imo the plywood is either flat when you make the doors or not, but it does not really change after the fact .Imho I would not recommend plywood products from overseas for the door application .
Selection of sheets that have little or no warp is what's really important .
There are ways to use Euro hinges on lipped or beveled edge doors , the Euro hinges will allow the adjustment of a less than perfect fit and look .
If you are using the standard old fashioned hinges they do not have any real adjustment built into them but they can be tweaked , the downside of tweaking them is the door lifts away slightly (the amount of tweak) from the face at the hinge .They do make what they call a half wrap hinge where the hinge screws on to the inside egde of the face , not surface mounted .
what type will you use ?
dusty
The doors and drawer fronts will be lipped (3/8") and she wants the euro cup hinges.
I'm not sure I agree that a flat door will stay flat, however. The few that I've made over the past couple of years were flat as a pancake when they were made, finished, and installed. A couple of them warped after a few months for no discernable reason.
There are a few reasons or possibilities your doors warped , my guess is the material you used may not have been stable , meaning the core in the plywood moved after you cut it up and a few months later after it had dried more . There actually is a small moisture content in plywood core , but some of the imports may not be stable. Not sure if the boat ride causes it or the core may not be dried properly to begin with , thats hard to believe but possible .
I guess we need to establish what is flat ? and what is acceptable industry standards , and your standards . When you buy doors from factories the rules usually state that 1/4" or less from corner to corner is not considered a defect.
You can hang a flat door on a cabinet that is racked to the wall and the door will not lay flat without adjustment .We have shimmed out cabinets from the wall where needed especially to help the doors .
I think with the good Euro hinges with 6 way adjustment you will be fine if you get some decent panels to work with .
dusty
Dusty -
I've always built my own doors (a few hundred by now) and have rarely had them twist, warp, etc. When they have, some of the reasons were obvious and some will probably be a mystery forever. My experience with plywood "slab" doors has been rather limited and hasn't been very good. As I said in my original post, I suspect some of the problem may be the quality of the core plys.
For this customer, the "flatness" standard is dictated by her existing cabinets. They're original to the house (late 50's) and are good old 5 ply oak veneer. They're as ugly as a mud fence but the doors are dead flat - after 50 years. When I suggested banding to hide the exposed plys, she made it very clear that she likes that look and wants it in the new cabinets. That settled the question for me - I plan to do whatever I can to give her what she wants. - lol
The euro hinges will give me a little "wiggle room", but taking time to pick the right material should minimize the need for "wiggle room". Industry standard or not, a 1/4" twist in a door ain't gonna fly with this lady.
This kitchen is part of a major remodel she's been dreaming of for years and we're 5-6 months away from installing the cabs. I have plenty of time to research the materials I'll need to get it right. - lol
You might check out 3/4" Apple Ply , a domestic version of Baltic Birch and a beautiful product .
dusty
Dave,
I'm not at all up to date with what's available in the US now, but for what it's worth...
For applications like you're talking about I've been using Scandinavian Birch plywood (made in Finland) that has thin plies and absolutely no gaps inside. Lovely stuff, stays flat. Costs about twice what I'd normally pay (approx $60 per sheet of 18mm thickness) but worth every penny in some situations.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David -
Good to hear from you again. I don't know if you remember, but a couple of years ago you helped me figure out how to make european cup hinges work on bevel edged slab doors. I didn't actually use them (the customer changed her mind), but it would have worked - lol.
I often tell customers about this forum and how it's such a great resource. Post a question and you usually get 3-4 answers within a few hours - some of them from halfway around the world!!
I'll probably have to do some serious shopping for the plywood for this project. Hopefully, I be able to find something like the Baltic Birch but with a different veneer.
Dave
I've had zero troubles using a high quality version of either Baltic Birch or Apple ply with no voids inside. I veneer them myself in vac bag and haven't had a single call back. I always make sure the substrate is flat to begin with, and reject any with even slightest bow in them.
Is it possible that your past problems could come from a case of having a bad batch of ply to work with? Did you veneer yourself, or purchase cab.-grade ply already veneered? I've cut open more than one piece of "supposed" void free A-grade ply and found a void or two inside. It immediately goes back to my vendor.
Jeff
I'm pretty sure that the problems were caused - in part, anyway - by poor quality core material in the ply. Much of it is imported anymore and who knows what gets used for the core plys. - lol
I don't have the equipment to do my own veneering so I have to buy what I need. I stopped in at a friends cab shop today and he told me that he uses domestic cabinet grade seven or nine ply stock and has never had a problem. He even offered to get me what I need when the job comes in. He buys in units and I buy in sheets. - lol
Dave
In my opinion, american made ply, or "apple plywood", is definately better (Hands Down!) than any of the imported products. I use it whenever I can. You should take your friend up on his offer, and even stock a little extra. He'll probably even get you a better price.
Jeff
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled