I have a 20 year old Unisaw and I am considering a Felder or Hammer sliding table saw. Has anybody been disappointed with a sliding table saw and went back to a cabinet saw? Most of my projects are small like clocks and boxes. I very seldom use sheet goods. Any comments and suggestion are appreciated.
Life is what happens to you when you’re making other plans .
Replies
I've been converted to sliders after using them in commercial shops. Cant stand a cabinet saw. Entry level saws are Rojek, Kufo, etc. I picked up an SCMI slider when the company I used to work for went under. Cost me $1,750 and the saw was only ten years old. It was only a 4' slider, what a saw!
I bet it will take about 10 minutes to sell your old saw. :o)
Jerry, I sold my Jet Cabinet saw about 3 years ago when I found a used Felder out of state. I also sold my 6" Jet jointer and 13" Rigid planer. I got a 3hp tilting head shaper, 12" saw blade, 12" planer and 12" jointer in return (the other half of the machine). When priced out as separate tools, a 12" jointer will run you about $2,500 and a tilting head shaper is at least $1,500.
The thing I didn't like about the new saw was that the slider was only a 4' long version. As such, it didn't have an outrigger for heavy sheet goods.
However, I can't imagine going back to a cabinet saw. It would feel like the equivalent downgrading from a cabinet saw to a portable benchtop saw! The slider is on ball bearings and it will support my 230# body weight when extended away from the saw base (which weighs around 1800#). My table saw blade has a riving knife, which is much safer that what is on a cabinet saw too. The miter fence is as good as any aftermarket miter fence that costs $250.
The only combination that is similar for a cabinet saw is the new Powermatic 2000 (which has a riving knife) along with the new slider from Jessem (http://www.jessem.com/mast_r_slide.htm). The cost of this is about $2,300+$550?
Now, the Jessem slider isn't nearly as good as a slider that was engineered into the saw at it's conception. The table top only moves 36" and it is about 10" away from the sawblade (in other words, you have 10" of unmoving cast iron friction between the part that slides and the cutting blade). My sliding table is next to the blade (OK, it's actually about 1/8" away from the left side of the blade). I don't think it would hold more than about 100#.
If you haven't seen a slider in action, get ahold of Felder/Hammer USA and ask them to send you their free DVD on the Hammer line. A fellow member of mine on Yahoo groups does the video, John Renzetti. You can find out more by joining our owners group at: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/messages
Rod
Thanks Rod for your recommendations. I am also considering the Powermatic 2000 with the Jessem slider. I was at the Felder open house in October and meet John. I just received the DVD and I have been a member of the Yahoo group for a year. I have been on the fence deciding if I should get a slider for about 2 years. It looks like I should have no regrets other than lighter pockets. My biggest concern is that the slider will be OK to use to make small projects. Everybody has said to get the large slider but I think the 52" will be fine for me.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Well, I guess it's like anything in life... A Ferarri will get you from point a to point b in the same time (assuming that you go the speed limit!) as a Gremlin. It's just the ride that's different. For the time I am able to take away from spending with my wife and 3 kids, I like to enjoy it with nice tools...
A friend once made the very true point to me that whatever I make it my home shop can probably be found cheaper when mass produced by someone. The point of me doing my own kitchen cabinets or jewelry boxes is the craftsmanship that I had to put forth with my own hands. I like to sit down to my quilted maple coffee table everytime I go to watch TV.
There are lots of ways to cut wood. When I cut small pieces, I often cut them on the SCMS or the bandsaw as they have more finesse. However, the rip fence on the Felder is similar to the Unifence. It has a high and low side. It can be pulled back so that it doesn't extend beyond the blade. If I need a lot of small short pieces (like Dental mouldings), I find it less prone to kickback than the SCMS (which to operate safely needs to have the blade stopped when in the down position - I've gotten stitches in my finger due to kickback on a small piece). I set the fence on the Felder to come up to the front edge of the sawblade. I push the stock up to the fence and run it through the blade. It doesn't pinch as the fence doesn't extend beyond the blade. The best thing to do is run a little feather board or stick so that the offcuts don't get stacked back into the back of the blade. I've cut hundreds of 3/4" pieces of dental mouldings this way.
The Felder is in a different league than a Ryobi or the Jessem. The slider is designed different as such. The closest in just a table saw is probably the new Laguna. I spoke with a guy that got one with the slider and he loved it. My Used Felder has a 3 HP tilting head shaper which works in conjunction with the slider... The table saw blade has an electric brake, which is why the blades have to be rebored for the arbor and pins. My 12" Felder blade takes off a lot of wood in one pass. For small pieces, you might find that it's taking too much wood. You could get a thin kerf 10" Forrest WWII and they can bore it out for you.
If your really not sure, get ahold of someone in your area on the FOG that has a Felder and ask to go see it. Or go see one at a woodworking show and ask to cut wood on it.
I've shown my machine to other people that contacted me . They were impressed enough to go out and buy one (That's how I came to get one too). Even the old Felders are not in the same league. My saw is a BF6-31. I got it for about $6500 with extra tooling. It's easier to move than my old Jet cabinet saw with 52" fence was on a moble base. The Felder has two large wheels mounted on the chassis. There is a yolk on the other end, which you use to lift off the floor and move the machine around like a 3 wheeler. I can move all my machinery (shaper, saw, jointer, planer) out of the way of my wife's car in a matter of a few seconds this way...
Hope this helps Jerry,
Rod
Jerry,
Inconceivable to go back after using a slider. It seems about as likely to me as selling my computer and getting a typewriter.
DR
Jerry ,
If you "seldom use sheet goods " anymore why do you need a slider ?
Just did not catch your thinking on this .
dusty
That is my question, will a slider be beneficial when making small projects with solid wood.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Once you get a slider you won't regret it. You won't need a miter saw or a radial arm saw ever again in my opinion and experience. It's not just for sheet goods either. It's nece to be able to cross cut a table top. I'm amazed at people questioning whether it's necessary if you don't do plywood. The Jessem is too limited once you try a real slider.The advantage of the full carriage type slider is you can put it on a mobile base so it's the ultimate in flexibility. You can't do that with the add on sliders like the Excaliber.
Hi Rick ,
I have never had the pleasure of owning or using a sliding saw as you can tell . I was under the impression that ease in cutting sheet goods was a main advantage with these saws .
It sounded to me the poster was making small projects , and I pictured jewlery boxes and things similar to that . I was not sure how short of a board could be safely run on these saws ?
I did not realize that lumber stock cutting is also made more efficient . Sounds like you are suggesting that miter cuts typically done on a chop or miter saw are also made easier or better .
Thanks for making those points clear . One word of caution on your advice that one would not need a miter saw or RAS again . Do you take the slider to the jobsite to cut crown and trim ? Or should a person hold on to the trusty old miter saw for jobsite work ?
regards dusty
Well obviously for site work you would want a miter saw but for making furniture and jewelry boxes in the shop the slider will do it all. I can cut as small a piece as you cut on any other tool. You might make a fixture to hold it in place.
It's great not having to deal with saw sleds as well. You don't need a 10 slider to appreciate the benefits. A four foot slider is great for probably most of the work.
Thanks Rick , for the insight on sliders . I guess I need one now .
regards dusty
Guys on another forum, SMC, I tried my best to present to all the benefits of these European sliders. I never knew they really existed or how useful they are until someone else introduced me to them. I hope these explanations (follow the links below) can at least provide some info for all. Feel free to ask me any questions as I will try to answer the best I canPaulhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23389
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24502
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26285
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29871
Edited 2/3/2006 11:49 pm ET by pbcarch
Hi Paul ,
WOW ,
After 30 years I thought I had all the tooling I ever needed .
Well , maybe not . Looks very cool and versatile . A few of the larger shops I have been in have sliding saws and CNC machines that are programmed to do everything except assemble the projects .
Thank you and all the others that are sharing your wisdom with us.
regards dusty
I am small one man pro shop. I converted over to Euro style machines a little over two years ago including going from a Unisaw to 10.5 ft MiniMax slider. It takes a bit to get use to but once you have used it you will cringe at the site of a American style Cabinet Saw. The slider is not known very well here so its uses are not either. The benefits of a longer slider is straight line ripping of longer boards both solid and sheetgoods. You clamp the board down and slide away, you hands are no where near the blade. I have also just made a ripping jig in order to rip small stock repeatably and safely. You can also get rid of your miter saw, chop saw or whatever. I have no problem with small items at all either. Take a look at MiniMax also, high quality stuff.
I went from a Unisaw to a Felder slider and there is no going back. I mostly use hardwoods and the slider is perfect for ripping and crosscutting. I seldom use the rip fence anymore. From your description, it sounds as if the shorter slider would fit your needs perfectly. These units both have dado blade capability but the Felder has a 30mm bore with braking pins so you will need to have your dado blade rebored to fit this machine. I am not sure about the Hammer model. Unfortunately, my beloved Freud SD608 dado could not be rebored and I ended up replacing it with the Felder dado. It performs better than any dado I have ever used but it was also very costly.
Dewalt also makes a nice sliding table for their hybrid saw, and the Ryobi BT 3100, although a lightweight saw and noisier than the big machines, has an excellent small sliding table.
Either saw would be considerably cheaper than a European import, the Ryobi is under $400, and would have the capacity for the size work you intend to do and would take up far less floor space.
John W.
If you dont cut sheet goods I cant fathom why you would want a big slider. Unless you have a lot of money burning your pocket and unused space in your shop you will probably be happier with what you have.
Mike
Mike,
I don't expect to convice anyone by writing a few lines. But I would suggest that you at least reserve judgement until you have worked with a slider for a few weeks. It has a tendency to change what you "fathom".
DR
I agree that a slider is a great tool, you don't need to change my mind. I have a lot more than a couple weeks time on them. I once stood in front of a monster SCMI untill my arms were sore. If I had the space in my shop (it is 2000 sqft so if I really wanted one I'd have it) I would still lean towards a good verticle panel saw. There are some amazing panel saws out there that have scoring blades, tear out eliminating pressure plates, are just as accurate and moving the saw head is easier than moving the sheet; even with a sliding table. But that is just my preference I know most large modern shops use Euro style sliders, and of course in Europe it is the standard.
The poster stated that he makes smaller projects and what I can't fathom is using a giant slider to make a jewelry box. Sliders excell at cutting sheet goods and he specifically stated he seldom does that. There are many things a slider cant do. Few have miter slots, can run dado or moulding heads, or machine tennons and rabbits. Some have less substantial fences as well. Sliders take up quite a lot more space even when the table is locked. If you have the space you still have to walk around it all day. I am not against the idea of a sliding saw, I just am curious why the poster is thinking about one for his work. Perhaps one of those Incra sliding sleds would be more apropiate.
Mike
Here's another perspective.
I purchased one of the very first Ryobi BT3000's back in 1989 or thereabouts. I loved the sliding table and used the thing to build a house and a mess of cabinets and built ins in three other houses. Granted, this thing is NOT a high end piece of machinery but it did everything I asked of it. My being in the Navy and moving every two or three year made its portability a big plus.
My major beef with the BT3000 was the lack of any miter slots which prevented me from making a lot of the jigs and fixtures I ran across in woodworking books and magazines.
Last year I decide to upgrade, and looked at every Delta, Powermatic, Jet Grizzly, Laguna, Mini-Max, Felder and whatever, I could get my hands on. When it came time to pull the trigger I bought the Dewalt hybrid. For under $1,500 I got the saw plus an optional cast iron wing on the right and the cast iron sliding table on ball bearings with trick miter gauge on the left. So the entire top is cast iron which makes for very quiet vibration free operation. It also has miter slots on both sides of the blade so I'm in jig and fixture heaven. The sliding table will crosscut 20" with ease. Fence is very nice. Dust collection is OK, but could be a lot better.
No, it's not in the same league with the European heavyweights, but it didn't cost north of six large, either. But if you really are making stuff that isn't too big, give this saw consideration.
By the way, I will probably start construction of our third "final retirement home" this summer. The BT3000 will be my job site table saw until the house is weather tight and I can wrestle the four hundred pound Dewalt down into the basement.
Chris
Jerry,
I make furniture. I've been using a cabinet saw. I recently inherited a MiniMax SC3 slider. For making furniture, I still prefer my cabinet saw. If I were making plywood cabinets, I would probably appreciate the slider more. One thing I don't like about the MiniMax SC3 is there is no miter slot, so I can't use a micro adjusting miter fence such as a Incra.
The only thing I use the SC3 for is making crates out of plywood to ship my furniture and artwork. I'll make some one good deal on it.
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~claypen
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