Replies

1. 
   BG | Feb 21, 2006 04:16am | #1

   Jrogerh,
   Two part epoxy...open time about 30 minutes...gives you time for final adjustments too.

2. 
   Archibald | Feb 21, 2006 05:07am | #2

   I work alone and have had to do many complex glue-ups. The trick I have found is not in the slowset of the glue, but in being well prepared for the rush after the glue is applied. Having all your clamps set to the proper length and having all your glue blocks in place will cut down on your time enough that you can choose your glue based on other factors, in this case I'd recommend Titebond I Dark in case your dovetails aren't perfect.

   Otherwise Titebond Liquid Hide glue offers a slow set and is reversible in case the glue-up really does go awry.

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Feb 21, 2006 06:14pm | #5

   You are correct.  Going through two or three dry fits will significantly reduce the time needed for gluing up.  In insures that everything fits properly and that all the tools and clamps are at hand and you know where they go.

   Look carefully for possible smaller sub-asseblies that can be glued up first.  Then glue the sub-assemblies together.

   If you have a carcase with cross shelves or members, glue only one side first.  Use the second sided--unglued--to position the other ends of the cross pieces.  When the glued side has hardened, go back and glue the second side.Howie.........

1. 
   jrogerh | Feb 21, 2006 10:54pm | #6

   Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.  I have some new things to look at now.  Will definitely practice the dry fit routine to make sure I have all the clamps, etc.  In the very small space in whick I work I have to plan exactly where I'm going to place everything.

3. 
   douglas2cats | Feb 21, 2006 05:14am | #3

   I've had good luck with Titebond II Extend. It's got about 10 mins more open time than regular TBII and 5 mins more than the new TBIII. It's not as long as the 30 min epoxy though and I'd still recommend doing a dry run to make sure you've got everything laid out and ready to go.

   If you build it he will come.

1. 
   sido | Mar 01, 2006 10:21pm | #15

   can you or anyone tell me  how much open time we have with titebond,  titebond II, and titebond III. you mentioned haveing 10  min more open time with titebond II extend...and 5 min more than  titebond III.......i am new the the wood and glue world..... thanks

1. 
   douglas2cats | Mar 02, 2006 02:45am | #16

   I'm going off memory here, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to do a google search to locate Titebonds website and double check. I thought I bookmarked their site, but can't find it. I'm pretty sure it went like this:

   TBII - 10 mins

   TBIII - 15 mins

   TBII Extend - 20 minsIf you build it he will come.

1. 
   sido | Mar 02, 2006 11:38pm | #17

   i did like you suggested, goolged titebond..........and they say, 5 min for both original and titebond II, and 10 min for titebond III.....thanks for reminding me where to go for info on just bout everthing.....but it is more fun asking real people....

1. 
   douglas2cats | Mar 03, 2006 01:52am | #19

   Yep - you're right and it got me curious as to why you didn't report the TBII Extend time. So I googled myself and was surprised to see the Extend not listed on their site when you click on their 'Products' button. I had to do a search on TB's site to find it Looks like I was off by 5 minutes on that one too. It's only 15 mins, not 20.

    

   If you build it he will come.

   Edited 3/2/2006 5:54 pm ET by douglas2cats

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Mar 04, 2006 02:09am | #24

   Go to the Titebond web site.  They have a chart of  "open" times there.Howie.........

3. 
   user-104711 | Mar 17, 2006 10:42am | #26

   Open time on Titebond glues (ll or lll) depends on temperature and humidity. I have seen Titebond  lll  skin over in as little 2 minutes.

1. 
   sido | Mar 17, 2006 03:19pm | #27

    Yes absolutely that is a good point. temp and humidity affects so many aspects to woodworking.

2. 
   gb93433 | Mar 05, 2006 09:26am | #25

   When I want a longer open time so that I have more time to work I add a very small amount of water to Titebond. I do this all the time with glues when making doors.

   Edited 3/5/2006 1:26 am by gb93433

4. 
   hitai | Feb 21, 2006 10:51am | #4

   My favorite for long assemblies is urac... It's a resin/ powdered catalyst glue that gives you plenty of time , cleans up with water,  sands well, and doesn't "ghost" like aliphatic glues.  Dries hard, no creep,. It is what was used before epoxies and has been around a long time.  Ideal for structural laminations

    Other advantage is that it catalyzes with moisture which is ideal in woodwork.

   In my opinion there is WAY too much clean up with epoxies.

5. 
   gb93433 | Feb 25, 2006 01:24am | #7

   If you put a slight amount of glue in Titebond it will increase your open time. I do that all the time when I make doors.

1. 
   John_D | Feb 25, 2006 03:36pm | #8

   I think Titebond is mostly glue already. ;)My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

6. 
   AdamCherubini | Feb 25, 2006 05:21pm | #9

   In furniture factories, they use glues that kick off with some form of radio wave. They have all the time in the world to assemble their CNC cut components.

   In my shop I would have done things differently. I make the carcass and plow the grooves, and cut the dadoes, then glue up the carcass with fast setting hide glue. Clamps don't really help and are only needed if the joints are loose or to bring the carcass to square. Then the drawer dividers are cut to fit the openings and dadoes however they are. With the fast setting glue, I just keep working at a steady pace and no stock has a chance to warp or move on me. Everything is essentially custom fit. My goal is to plane and join in one day.

   I'm writing this because I feel your pain and frustration. The guys who recommend building this way have perfect tools and radio glue, leaving you, who take their advice, high and dry. Unfortunately, people who try to take my advice have the same problem since my shop is similarly, though differently, well-equipped.

   So rather than offering a solution or explaining the "genius" of my "wisdom" I guess I wanted to comiserate and recognize my own disservice. I can see how in the actual doing, normal woodworkers are screwed by professionals' methods. So I see the opposite of the conventional wisdom. You just can't trust the pros! They never tell you the whole story.

   Adam

1. 
   gb93433 | Feb 25, 2006 05:45pm | #10

   Plastic Resin Glue sets off rather slowly. It is a glue that you mix with water. I use it a lot in laminations. Many years ago when I worked in a furniture factory we used casein glue and plastic resin glue.It can be found at http://www.acehardware.com/sm-dap-and-reg-weldwood-and-reg-plastic-resin-glue-00204--pi-1409486.html

2. 
   jrogerh | Feb 26, 2006 08:48pm | #11

   Actually, my case has the bottom dovetailed to the sides and the top if fitted into dadoed slots in the sides then screwed in place.  (The screws will be hidden by crown molding.)  Anyway, that does not take very long to assemble.  The greatest amount of time is spent applying the glue.  I have ordered some slow setting hide glue to give me the time I might need. 

   I will have to cut and fit small slivers to fill in the gaps in my imperfect dovetails. I don't see any way that I could do that in the time between clamping and glue set up.  Yet if I wait until the glue is dry will I be able to inset the gap-fillers?

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Feb 26, 2006 11:11pm | #12

   Slow setting hide glue? There IS no slow setting hide glue! There's really fast, pretty fast, and fast. Your best shot at slowing down hide glue is using Franklin's liquid hide glue (which is nothing more than hide glue and urea). Franklin can also be used as an additive to slow down hot glue. So what did you order, 134? 134 gives about 1 minute open time. 193 gives you about 45 seconds.Adam

1. 
   jrogerh | Feb 28, 2006 12:22am | #13

   The glue I orderd is Titebond liquid hide wood glue.  The front label says "...slow set allows precise assembly...".  The back lable says "...longer open assembly time...'.  I hope this will work ok.

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Feb 28, 2006 07:16am | #14

   Actually, that's the same as Franklin's. It will be fine. Its not real strong, but it should do fine. Regarding strength, it seems to me this is somewhat of a red herring. All the basic glues achieve more or less the same strngth when used correctly. The difference seems to lie in what sort of joint or surface quality you need to achieve it.Adam

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 03, 2006 12:31am | #18

   According to the Titebond web pages, the strength of the liquid hide glue is virtually identical to the PVA glues, and a bit more than polyurethane glue.  This means that hot hide glue is going to be stronger (given the same tests) than the regular Titebond glues. 

3. 
   AdamCherubini | Mar 03, 2006 05:32am | #20

   Woodworking glue strength tests are junk science. Depending on how you prepare the sample, you can get pretty much whatever results you're after. That would be a good magazine article for somebody. The point would be that you can forget about the strength claims from the manufacturer, we'll never achieve those properties or need them anyway. Choose glues based on what sort of joinery you have.Here's what I do: for edge to edge joints where I want an invisible line and I can use clamps, I use PVA. For just about everything else I do, I use hot hide glue. Its plenty strong enough, fills small gaps, and is very convenient.Adam
   P.S. let me know if you need help with the article!

   Edited 3/20/2006 10:22 pm ET by AdamCherubini

4. 
   JohnH | Mar 03, 2006 05:44pm | #21

   Adam,

   My experience is similar to your comment that glues react differently depending on the situation. Specifically, it seems that the open time (time to the fatal grab) for PVA adhesives, depends a lot on how thick the glue layer is. If it is thick, then the open time is longer, but much more squeeze-out to contend with. If it is thin, then the open time is much less than what the manufacturer states. Have you seen the same thing?

5. 
   AdamCherubini | Mar 03, 2006 06:27pm | #22

   Yeah.  I agree.  But I tend not to (intentionally anyway) use pva where a thick bondline is possible.  I really do use it mostly for gluing up wide panels, where I can make an invisible glue line by pullingup a lot of clamp pressure.  Pretty much all of my joinery gets hide glue. 

   I'd really like to see somebody write that article, I mentioned though.  I'd love to read it!  The crazy glues probably have their place as well.  Like, what glue is best for a DT joint?  You can't really clamp it, and cleaning the glue drips can be tricky if you want a nice clean joint. To really draw these crowd pleasing joints out, I've actually finished the drawer fronts including the end grain, prior to assembly.  This complicates the whole clean up.  What about joints we know are loose?  What should we use of those?  We all do it.

   Adam

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 04, 2006 12:10am | #23

   I wouldn't have any particular reason to suspect that a manufacturer would use different testing methods among the various products in his own product line. And I am generally pretty cynical.  Of course, as you say, "the" number isn't all that relevant either, since there are a great many variables to consider including the particular joint and materials.  I think thats really the point to make--that one particular test statistic isn't sufficient to answer all the questions about choosing an adhesive--even if that statistic were consistantly prepared. 

   However, I strongly suspect that there is a lot more than junk science out there examining the strength and other properties of adhesives.  A quick look at the Forest Products Laboratory shows an extensive bibliogaphy on various aspects of adhesives. (Some articles are on-line, but I haven't plowed through any. )  Strength of materials is one of the more extensively research aspects of engineering I believe--but it is true that buildings still fall down on occasion.