Small Chips on Plane Blades and Chisels
In response to the many threads recently about tuning up planes, and Sarge’s determination to make a cheap plane work, I finally got up the courage to attack my record block plane that has remained unused for the last 3 years (believe me, I tried to get that thing to work out of the box). It took about four hours of some serious elbow grease, and now it seems to work pretty well. If I only had some technique.
Here is the question, the second I put the plane to wood my beautiful little microbevel on the tip of the blade gets tiny little chips in it. The same thing happens with my marples chisels.
1.) Does this happen to everybody, or is it the poor quality of blade/chisel
2.) When I go to resharpen the blade or chisel do I need to completely rehone the edge or do I start with the microbevel
3.) For those of you who use the scary sharp, what grit of sandpaper do you start with when you “resharpen” or maintain the edge
Thank you for you help, and for the courage to unplug the machines for a while. I have learned a tremendous amount from everybody on this forum, and rarely do I ever start a project without doing some thorough searching of the threads.
Jon
Replies
If you did 4 hours of work on your Record block plane you must have a better quality one than mine. :) The blade is either poor quality or has too acute an angle. Try an angle about 5 degrees larger and see if that helps. If not, try an aftermarket blade like a Hock.
Jon,
I wish I could remember who deserves credit for saying that people and cutting tools both lose their value once they've lost their temper.
The sharpened tip of a chisel or plane iron is the primary point of impact in use, and will chip or distort if the steel is too thin, the material being cut is too hard, or the edge is subject to inordinate impact. This effect is observed in brittle steel and in cutting edges with thinner profiles.
Although low cutting angles excel when paring, they lack the strength necessary for heavy chopping and mortising (ever seen a hollow-ground mortising chisel?).
Every sharpened edge is a deliberate compromise between sharpness and durability. The more you sharpen, the thinner, and weaker, the cross-section at the tip of the cutting edge. Tools like cold chisels and mortising chisels are beefy because of the severe duty to which they will be subject, while razor blades can be paper-thin because they aren't expected to be hammered or used on hard materials.
You might want to increase the bevel angle to provide a larger cross-section (more steel) behind the cutting edge, or make your micro-bevel a bit smaller.
There are several excellent books that address these issues, such as Garrett Hack's book on hand planes, and Leonard Lee's book on sharpening.
Good luck,
Paul
1) It happens to everybody eventually, but it depends on what material you're planing and what angle you've used for the microbevel. If you've used a 20 degree angle and you're planing the end grain of red oak, forget it. You're going to get the little chips right away and never get anything done. If you're using a 30 degree angle and planing the long grain of cherry, you definitely should not get the little chips quickly and if you do there's something wrong with the steel. I was planing some pine recently and the edges were staying sharp for a long time. Then I hit a knot and - poof - back to sharpening.
2 & 3) Depends on how dull it has become. If you've been planing the long grain of cherry for 10 minutes and just want to get back that super sharp feel, just work on the microbevel at the highest grit you left off last time. If you've been planing difficult material for a long while and the thing is totally dull, you might have to re-form the microbevel.
Thank you for your comments. All the bevels are 25 degrees and the microbevels are about 27 degrees, as is usually recommended, but I guess it is all relative. Maybe I will try 30 degrees on some remaining chisels that I have not sharpened and see how that works.
* Markroderick - so when it becomes dull, I should just redo the microbevel, not the entire edge?
Jon
Jon,
I'll answer on Mark's behalf and I'm sure he'll jump in if he has something more to add.
You only rehone the secondary bevel. Redo the primary bevel when the secondary bevel is about 1/16" wide or smaller, as you wish.
Don't forget the critical part of sharpening which you haven't mentioned yet. The stropping to remove the wire edge formed by the stones/scary sharp.
If you can't get any dress leather, use an old chamois tightened over a piece of (smooth) scrap plywood, with a bit of oil on it. Wipe the edge backwards across this, then the back, then the bevel, then the back etc... until you get rid of the wire edge.
It could be that the "microchips" you refer to are simply parts of this wire edge breaking off in use. Unlikely, as I'm sure that you've stropped the edge, but just worth a mention in case others haven't.
Cheers,
eddie
Thanks Eddie,
I have actually never been told to strop the edge. For some reason I actually have a strop for an old strait razor. Do I need to lubricate it at all?
Jon
Jon, no oil, but rub a little Jeweler's rouge on the rough side of the strop. When it was new, the strop was impregnated with rouge.
Since most of my planing was done on the job, I carried an oilstone with my tools.
When I had to 'Strop', I unhooked my leather belt a few inches and'Stropped' away. Tested it on wrist hairs... (Clean shave every time!) Stein.
Just to amplify what Eddie said, there is no special function of a microbevel - it doesn't make the plane cut better. The only purpose of the microbevel is so when it gets dull, you'll only be re-sharpening a very narrow bevel rather than the entire bevel. So yes, when possible you should just re-sharpen the microbevel. When the microbevel gets too wide then you re-form the entire bevel and create a new microbevel.
Here's a new angle (pardon the unintended pun).
It always surpises me to see people put their planes and chisels down on the workbench with the cutting edges down. You work hard to get that scary sharp little micobevel, and you set it up so it takes those wispy little shavings, then you plonk the whole great big thing down on the bench! What's taking all the weight? That nice little edge you've just spent all that time on!
Put the plane down on its side, or in a holder or shoe, and always return chisels to a holder of some sort, and you may find the edges last much longer.
Edited 7/3/2003 8:47:39 PM ET by kiwimac2
Edited 7/3/2003 8:48:01 PM ET by kiwimac2
Jon
The Record's blade thickness is .090. It is made of HSS steel. The LN, LV or Hock blades are .120. They are A2 steel (cryrogenetically conditioned) which is much harder steel an will hold the edge longer. Translates to 5 1/2/16" on the Record and 8/16" or reduced to 1/8" on the Hock.
What I found is the 60 1/2 will cut end grain nicely once tuned an sharpened. I found 3 spots on the sole that was hollow. The toe, heel and just behind the throat. Lapped it down with 80 grit till flat then upped to 100, 120, 150, 180, 220, 320 and 400 to polish. Finished with a 6000 grit water-stone.
Did a nice job on red oak end grain and oak plugs. Shot a mitre on same with no problem. I sharpened the blade at 24* degrees and added a 25* degree micro-bevel. I also flattened the blade before sharpening. The low-angle works fine on end grain, but will lose it's sharpness pretty quick.
I used it to shoot an edge on the red oak and got chatter. I found a slight gap (.002) or so between the back of the blade and the throat. I took the back of the bed post down slightly so the back of blade sat flatter on it. This reduced the chatter considerably, but was still present. Needed some help at this point.
Took the plane by to see Mr. Homer M., a retired grocer and butcher from my past. He's 88 now. Mr. Homer was a WW along with being an experience butcher. He used to keep his butcher block flat with a block plane. I would watch him flatten it every so often. He would work with 3 block planes at a time.
Told him what the problem was and he took a look at my block plane. Within seconds he told me the blade cap was too short. That was what caused the blade gap between the bed and the blade. He dug around in his shop and came up with a Record 09 1/2 blade cap. Still came up slightly shy of the throat, but put a lot more positive pressure down on the blade.
We shot the edge of a piece of white oak. Chatter gone. It's magic!! I offered the buy the Record blade cap. He just laughed an sent me packing with it and a spare. Mr. Homer doesn't get to do much WW on his walker anymore. He told me to drop by some week-end and he would show me a few things about hand-planes. I expect I will.
Is the Stanley 60 1/2 a LN. Nope... but with the proper tuning an a little modification; it's doing everything that I require of a block plane. I think I will put a piece of masking tape on the side of the wing. Take a black magic marker and write LYE-NELSON 61 on the side. Think I could fool anybody in thinking I got a high dollar block plane. ha..ha..
Got an A2 blade coming this week-end, courtesy fo Delta Air Lines. Well sorta. < G >
Good luck with the tuning...
sarge..jt
Jon
Correction. The Record blade is 11/64" an the Hock 16/64" or 1/8". Dah.. A senior moment, or was it the fumes from the contact cement. he...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Thanks for the update. I assumed your tuning was going to be far more thorough than mine, and I was definitly right.
I did had a similar experience, however. I had three places that the sole was hollow so I lapped those down. Then I had to flatten the part of the bed that the edge of the blade rests on (sorry, I don't know the term), although I couldn't do much with that because my file wouldn't fit through the throat. The big one for me is to really file down the back of the blade cap, which was lumpy from all the paint. I can definitely see that the blade cap is way too short. It only comes down about half way on mine, so I have to REALLY sinch it down with the screw to keep it stable. After quite a bit of work on the blade I was ready to do a test. It shaved the edge of a piece of maple very nicely. I actually got a continuous ribbon for the foot long piece. Next I tried the end grain. Didn't work so well, although that definitely could have been my technique, or maybe the short blade cap rearing it ugly head. That is also when the blade got pretty chewed up.
I don't know if I will be shooting miters with this plane anytime soon, but I do feel that I have a tool that I can take down plywood edging with, fit doors and drawers with, or even shave down some dovetails in the future, that is when I learn how to do them right. My first couple of tries where pretty squirrly. And the best part is that I can figure out how to use this tool, and how much I will use this tool without dumping $150 on it.
Personally, I will probably go with LN or Veritas in the future, just because I have so little time to devote to this hobby, so I want to be building, not bringing my tools to working order. That said, I have an old craftsman 6 inch jointer that I inherated that is going to need a LOT of work. I think you build some extentions to your jointer, if so, could you post a picture or two?
Jon
Jon
Will add just a couple of points. I set the blade-throat to take 1/64" shavings on the end grain and 1/32"on the edge passes. I set, is not an appropriate term. I adjusted it in passes an mic'ed the shaving with a WW mic using 32nds. This is where I found the best results with the 60 1/2. The 1/32" may be too deep for the edges and could have contributed to some of the chatter. I'll play more, but I don't normally do edges with a plane except for occasions where power is not practical.
I do not have permanent extentions for the jointer. I use the Ridgid flip-top extention stands. I have 4 of them and they are great. I won't use a roller anymore after thrying one. They have larger, more stable bases than most stands and are 4 point bases. Adjustment is easy and then just fold them and store them flat against or on a wall. I use them on the jointer and TS, even though I do have permanent extentions on the TS. I had to rip 14' stock recently, and these were essential for a one hoss operation.
Have a good day...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
I have to agree that putting a block plane to an edge doesn't make a lot of sence in most applications. I just wanted to test it for doors and drawers and the like. I will work a little more on the edge grain tonight and see if I can get it to work. On the edge grain to you get a sort of "dust" out of the plane, or does it actually slice the wood?
I haven't tried the HD gliders yet, but I definitely plan to. I need something to really extend the bed of the jointer since it is so short. In the future I will go ahead and get a more formitable machine, but for now I think I will try to make this one work. I followed the "planer snipe" thread pretty closely, and set up the jointer last night with the blades at .001" above the outfeed. No snipe, but I am getting a little tear out even on pine! Looks like I need to sharpen those knives.
Jon
Should be getting shavings, not dust. Just as with a hand scraper. If you're getting dust, the angle or technique on a hand scraper is wrong. I would guess the same on a hand plane. Hopefully, one of the plane guys will fill in the details on the dust.
I derived at .001 over the knives on my jointer by raising it as Rick mentioned, an lowering it till the snipe dis-appeared. It just turned out to be .001 on mine. That could vary from jointer to jointer. That method is easier to use to set up as it is difficult to get anything you can trust as true straight.
You're letting the jointer tell you what is correct for it. Once you find it, the only time you should experience snipe is to use in-correct technique getting the stock through the machine. Loss of concentration will almost always gaurantee that you got a shot at snipe. Let the jointer do the talking, you just adjust to what it's telling you.
The tear our is most likely due to dull blades unless you've got some wild grained wood.
Have a good evening...
sarge..jt
Jon,
Just a question. Have you magnified the edges a little. I have some doubt you're dealing with chips in the steel of Marples chisels. My guess is these areas are actually dents with the edge folded back slightly. Unless the condition is caused by faulty heat treating, the cure is a more obtuse cutting geometry.
If the Marples chisels are new, I have experienced brittle edges for about the first 1/16" of the blade. If you're getting chips where part of the steel is actually shattering, you might want to grind the chisel back a little. If you're grinding, do this by grinding a 90º flat on the edge and bringing the bevel up slowly.
I've got to look into the rather Record is using HSS for irons. If so, it's a pretty recent change.
It looks like it is time to pull out the freshly sharpened chisels and give them a couple of wacks. I will let you know whether it folds or chips. Thanks for the info.
Jon
Larry
The Record may not be HSS. That was said as a parallel when comparing the A2. The Stanley blade is definitely not high quality steel and may not even be HSS. I assume the Record is the same blade, even though I don't know. I do know as Jon stated, that the blade cap on the Record is even shorter that the Stanley. With exception of the 09 1/2. I'm not sure why they do that.
I have never paid much attention to how planes are desgned and should work properly. It's turning out to be kind of interesting. I know more about the workings in a week than I knew for a long time. I still got a lot of work in that area, but the first step has been made. About another 30 yrs. an I'll be a lot closer. ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Stanley used O-1 steel in their irons until recently then they started using an oil hardening steel that has a higher vanadium content. High speed steel is harder yet than A-2 and much more difficult to sharpen. I suspect Record also uses some form of oil hardening steel.
I wouldn't want a HSS steel plane iron. While it might hold its edge longer, it would be an unpleasant job to sharpen when it needed it. Forget flattening the back by hand, you'd want a surface grinder.
The unfortunate reality is that all this about A-2 steel is really variable. A-2 is wonderful stuff for machine shops because of its limited distortion. The problem is that there is A-2 and then there's A-2. How accurate is the alloy mix in the steel? How accurately was it heat treated? Both of these really determine the suitability of A-2 for plane irons. If you have high quality control of the specs and heat treating you can get a pretty good chisel or plane iron. Accurate heat treating of A-2 is beyond the capability of a home shop or even your average machine shop. Anyone who has the furnace capable of properly heat treating A-2 probably built the building housing the furnace specifically for that furnace. They're not bench top units or even close.
A-2 requires an accurate pre heat treating heat soak. The company that heat treats Lie-Nielsen's irons for example, uses a 20 hour heat soak. The temperature is critical on both the heat soak and the actual heating to the Curie point. It's a long process which requires an atmosphere controlled furnace where no oxygen can reach the steel or the carbon will burn off. Time and temperature at both stages are critical--with in a few degrees. Then the quench is done in a hot air blast where both the air and volume are another critical control. We have a computer controlled furnace in our shop that can hold temperature to within +/- 5º at 1700º F. It's not accurate enough for critical work with A-2 and it's not staged or atmosphere controlled. While I could heat treat A-2 with it, I doubt the results would be as good as what I get when heat treating O-1 or W-1 steel in the same furnace. These less exotic steels give a much wider margin of error and were the industry standard for woodworking tools for years.
A-2 that's not properly heat treated will have a large grain size or be brittle. Both of these will make for inferior tools. I suggest you take most of what you hear about A-2 with a grain of salt.
Then we could get into cryogenic tempering. Wow, what a can of worms. Most woodworkers think steel changes forms instantly when quenched. It doesn't. Even O-1 and W-1 are still soft and pliable for a brief period after quenching. I regularly straighten and bend it around just after the quench. You don't have long to get it where you want it, a few seconds and then it starts getting too brittle to stress. Well, highly alloyed exotic steels with long or high temperature quenches take much longer to completely change. For some steels it is as long as six months. You can speed the change up with cryogenic tempering and that's where its value lies. A machinist that makes a tool or a part doesn't want to wait for this transformation at times and cryogenic tempering will take care of that. But it's of little or no value with freshly hardened O-1, O-2 or W-1 steel. Yet I've seen articles suggesting people send of O-1 or W-1 irons that are a hundred or more years old for cryogenic tempering. What a colossal waste of time, money and effort.
I wish there was a clearing house for information when it starts sounding like hocus-pocus. All there is a some misinformation out there and that's too bad.
Larry
Thanks for the in-depth info on steel processing. I agree that what you may read about something one place is often disputed somewhere else. When I first came to the forum about a year ago I posted something I though was correct from reading on 220v vs 120v increasing HP and making an electric motor run cooler.
There were over 150 post from electricians, electrical engineers and everyone that ever used electricity. I think Thomas Edison was among the group. All answers varied with the exception of two. I went with that answer as two people actually agreed. There were some major dis-agreements.
Now, two questions if you'd be so kind. First, where did you get the obvious vast knowledge of steel processing. Guessing you are in some related field? Second, the Hock blades advertise both A2 and HSS versions. The HSS cost less. Also the hype I read stated the A2 was tempered at 320* F an that increased the hardness. From what you posted, it is much more in-depth than that.
If I chose to go with a new blade in the future, is Hock the ticket. An which would one be better off with in your opinion? The HSS or A2 they market. Do they make a blade in any other type of steel other than these two I have access too locally?
My BIL is currently making a new blade for the 60 1/2. I requested A2 from what I've read. I found out today he had to fly to Seattle to cover a shortage at the Delta machine shop there till Monday. If you were going to make a blade, what steel would you use? I agree that I don't have to keep an edge forever with the limited needs I use a block plane for. Mitres, plugs and dove-tails is mostly the extent. I don't mind re-sharpening. Just part of WW as I see it.
What are your thoughts? Take your time and think about it. I will put my BIL on hold till I get a reply. I don't get in a hurry. I would rather proceed with correct data than fly by the seat of the pants. This is turning out to be very interesting an educational. I'm glad I took on the project as I needed a spark from the ordinary. I thrive on that.
Opps... guess the two questions broke off and chain-reacted. ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Hi Sarge,
You asked Larry where he got a grounding in metallurgy. I don't know Larry's background but I'll jump in as Larry is quite modest about it.
Larry makes some of the world's best wooden planes in the traditional style. He has quite a reputation for quality of manufacture and what he doesn't know about a plane (wooden or metal) isn't worth knowing, to wear a cliche even further.
Here's his website
If you want a jpeg of that plane blade comparison, I'll shoot you one over. Ping me if you're interested.
Cheers,
Andrew
eddie
Thanks for the inside info here. Just returned from Mr. Willaims web-site. With what I saw and read, it's Mr. Williams from now on. Now, he didn't tell you about those "wild hogs" that will run out in front of your car at nite. You need a scrub plane to get them off the grille an bonnet. That's after you get released from the hospital. They just call them "razor-backs" in Arkansas. ha..ha..
I registered your metallurgy comment. Have a feelin' I'll be dropping by again for a question or three when the need arises. I e-mailed my address. I will see if the e-mail goes through. I have had trouble before with transmission of "e"'s to foriegn countries. If you mail the list, I would be happy to re-imburse for your expenses.
Thanks for the tip on the A2. I have a feeling that I might be accumulating a little knowledge about plane works in the near future. Looks like I got lucky and accidentally stumbled into a wealth of informational sources here. Think I'll buy one lotto ticket today with that kind of luck. You never know.... If I were to win, a C & W could be on the horizon. ha..ha..
Appreciated indeed...
sarge..jt
Hi Larry,
I've dual trades (metallurgy and cabinetmaking) and agree with your thoughts. The role of the sub-zero quench is to provide more driving force for the soft high temperature phase (austenite) to transform to the hard brittle phase in the steel (martensite) . If the steel was already fully converted (which plain carbon steels are), then the cryo quench is useless.
Your comments on being able to bend the steel immediately after hardening are interesting. As you said, shouldn't be possible, but it is most certainly happening. One thing that I may put it down to is that the steel may have retained austenite. The work you put into the steel by bending it gives the necessary energy to drive the transformation of some of the retained austenite and the steel then hardens further.
Also, to transform, steels need time at a certain temperature (as you said, the 20 hour soak just above the critical temperature). The amount of transformation depends upon the speed of the quench and the quenching temperature (ie: time and temperature). Transformation at room temperature is possible but not quick. Sounds as though you have a system worked out that works for you. This is why metallurgy is still a bit of a black art - those that insist on one way only haven't had much worthwhile experience. It's obviously working fine for you. Water/oil temperatures a few degrees hotter or colder could remove this window or extend it to days or hours.
Is the steel still pliable if you don't touch it post quench then try to bend it 30 minutes later. If not, then your combination of time and temperature is pretty well near perfect.
I think Record are using something like W2, water quenching steel, predominantly carbon steel with a small amount of vanadium added. Still transforms easily in poorly controlled conditions.
A2 done well is a good steel. There was an article published a few years ago here which compared Hock A2 to Holtey A2 to ??????? and showed significant differences in the same base grade. Composition has a minor effect within the grade, but heat treatment history and the simple fact that you may burn it when grinding the primary bevel.
I swear by M2 blades. I find that I get 8 hours solid use from a blade between sharpenings on our woods (full of silica). As you said, grinding the primary bevel on a bench grinder is slow but I find that they hone fine on diamond stones/2000# wet & dry as final polish. Not all that much time difference to how quickly a normal plane blade is to hone.
To flatten the back of the M2 (Tool steel) iron, I use a saw doctor's pecking hammer. Stretches the metal on the top and the blade bows away from the back accordingly. With a bit of experience you can pretty well flatten the blade with about 10-20 hammer strokes, then just flatten on an oilstone as per usual. Maybe 5 minutes initial honing/flattening. Flattening a HSS iron would be done in a similar fashion
I've sent an M2 blade across to the US (via Steve Knight) for testing against A2 blades and a Stanley sweetheart blade. Be interesting to see the results.
Sarge - If you have a good heat treater and already have the stock, I'd say stick with A2, if not then go with O1 or W1/W2 (Oil or Water hardening steels. W2, from memory is close to the Record composition). As Larry said, there's room for error in the heat treatment.
eddie
Edited 7/4/2003 5:09:39 AM ET by eddie (aust)
Eddie,
I think it was Ron Hock who first explained to me I had a brief period where I could straighten oil or water hardening tool steel after quenching. At that time I was getting my tool steel from a local machine shop and I asked the machinist who owned the place about it. He showed me a huge electromagnet he used to flatten and hold steel after quenching. All I can say is try it, it works.
I maintain a number of M-2, M-42 and other cutters and bits for metal working. I use 'em where I need the red hardness for metal working but maintaining them is no fun and represents considerable time. Grinding and sharpening these takes more skill and patience to achieve a good edge than more common tool steels. Someone new to sharpening may well not make it through the process.
I don't see what the issue is with sharpening. It's not uncommon for my business partner and I to demonstrate for a couple days at shows without sharpening. In practice, in the shop, I probably sharpen more often than is necessary just to get a break. Properly heat treated O-1 or W-1 irons quickly take a very good edge and, from removal to reset, never takes more than a couple minutes for sharpening. The edges sure have more staying power than I do and after a couple hours of using a plane, I'm usually looking for a reason to take a break. With most woods, a plane iron will hold an edge through hours of heavy work but I can't remember using a single plane for more than a few hours and I've been in situations where the whole job, past roughing dimensions, was done with hand tools.
I sure wouldn't recommend sharpening HSS plane irons with water stones. I avoid them anyway because maintaining their flatness is more work than the tool sharpening I do. While their aggressive cutting would be nice with HSS, you'd have the stone out of flat before you finished with a single iron. Ultimately, I would guess that you'll have more sharpening time per hour of use with HSS than with O-1 because HSS is so hard and requires so much time for each sharpening.
While this is all just personal preference for me, I think how a tool and it's cutting edges fit into a workshop schedule is more important than a somewhat esoteric measure of how long the sharpened edge lasts.
Hi Larry,
Thanks for the reply.
I can clearly see where you're coming from wrt O1 - it takes a keen edge quickly and it's been good enough for 200 years.
Also agree that M2 will cause havoc with an oil/water stone and that it can take a while to grind.
By using a diamond stone and then an old bit of 2000# wet and dry on top of the diamond stone to hone these to a mirror finish, a finish somewhat close to the 6000# finish produced by a waterstone is produced. I find that the diamond stone cuts M2 as quickly as a normal steel (say O1 or an old chisel), so the average sharpening time per hour is a lot less, but I'm experienced at sharpening, as you pointed out. Esoteric??? perhaps, but I'd rather avoid sharpening where possible.
Why do I use M2?
I have a "love job" at home that demonstrates perfectly. My Sister in Law wants her old fence palings turned into a coffee table. These are hard eucalypt (I think river red gum), cranky grained and full of grit/contained silica within the cell walls. After scrubbing the dirt off (scrub plane, not brush, to clear up any confusion), I was originally using a record iron (W2 I believe) - They're a fairly hard tough edge. I was getting about 15 strokes before the edge was too blunt to take a shaving and making dust instead. With the M2 iron, I'm getting through about 4 - 6 palings. For me, I'd rather be able to pick up the plane and use it than have to resharpen constantly.
Thanks for your comments and tips on the magnet - I've got a small flat anvil at work - I'll try that as we don't have the magnet.
I don't know why I'm getting such a poor life with the standard steels in general - I find that I'm having to stop and sharpen them way too often in our woods, so I steer clear of them now. I might take out an old iron from the pile, sharpen it up again and compare - I'll let you know the results.
I know that the eucalypt woods when aged are hard, but I can't see how they're so much more difficult than your hardwoods. If you're getting 2 days from an iron, you're right, why bother??? I was repeatedly getting from 2 minutes to 1/2 hour between sharpenings, which was way too often for my liking.
Cheers,
eddie
Hi Eddie, this discussion about metals is hugely fascinating for me, and I believe I'm keeping up with the gist of it, but if it's not to much trouble, could you spell it out real simple for me?
I've pick up (I think) that O-1 and O-2 are quenched in oil, W-1 and W-2 are quenched in water, my LN 4.5 has A-2 which is cryogenicaly treated (not sure about quenching details), you use and swear by M-2 for our extraordinarily abrasive timbers (it's not just me is it?), there's HSS which I believe is used mostly for drill bits and the like, but would take far to long to sharpen for all the extra use you'd get out of it, and a once mentioned M-42 whatever that is.
Is it possible to give me a basic understanding on which ones are harder or softer, and by how much?
Can you recommend a blade supplier in Australia? (I read that Academy Saw Works in NSW are pretty good).
I'm with you on the 'harder is better' issue, as long as it doesn't take to long to sharpen. Is it true that harder metals can be more brittle?
Any help you give will be appreciated, as I am aware that I may be asking a bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question.
Thanks Ben.
Hi Ben,
Not much on TV tonight so I checked in.
Here's a good summary of what makes up a tool steel and why they're tough/wear resistant. The first letter designates what the general heat treatment/quench is, eg: A for air quench, O for oil quench, W for water quench, etc...
As well, here's a fairly comprehensive grade listing on the various types and families of tool steel.
RE: What grade is better, it depends upon how well it's made, so there's no definitive answer.
There are two schools of thought (maybe three)
One group say (and rightfully so) that the original steels such as O1 are the easiest to sharpen and take the keenest edge. I agree with this but find the edge doesn't last for me. As Larry said, for other timbers, it lasts well (2 days). The reason why this takes the keenest edge is that there are minimal precipitates (such as alloy carbides) through the structure. This group are also the easiest to sharpen
A second group will swear by the Japanese steel irons (laminated steel - Damascus steel, ... ... ...) which is tough and takes an edge as keen as the O1 steels. They can take a bit of sharpening. I've never tried a Japanese iron.
I find that the edge produced by the high alloy tool steels such as A2 and M2 lasts the longest, but the initial edge is not quite as keen as the first two (but still sharp enough to pare pine end grain without tearing, which is my test for adequate sharpness). This is because of the finely distributed carbide through the structure. The edge retention on these grades is a lot better. However, they can be a bear to sharpen (M2 I find is a bear to grind and you should keep it away from oilstones, as Larry suggested)
I've seen a few heated debates around this issue - Don't know if there's a right or a wrong answer, all depends upon your personal experiences.
If you want to get in touch with Academy (who make the M2 blades) then shoot me an email off-line and I'll give you their number. Probably inappropriate for me to provide it on-line. (I've no commercial interest in their operations). Locally you can get in touch with MIK International (Adelaide) or Carbatec to get a Hock iron or L-N replacement iron in A2. I believe that they stock them.
Cheers,
eddie
Ben,
Remembered one more simple link, look into the individual categories for "metallurgy demystified":
http://www.leevalley.com/home/articles.asp?section=32&action=details&SID=&ccurrency=2
I've posted an off-the-cuff summary of tool steel metallurgy at another site before. Nothing different to what was in the first two links and this one above. Here tis.
Cheers,
eddie
This has been a very informative thread, but something raised my curiosity and I gotta ask - You were handplaning fence palings in order to make a coffee table?
Man, you are the hand tool hero!
I love handtools myself, but I believe if I had a bunch of fence palings that had been outside for a long time, they would be making some runs through a jointer and and thickness planer before I attacked them with handtools - if nothing else to give them a good shakedown and make sure none of those huge Australian spiders were lurking inside of any knotholes. <G>
I was not a fan of your spiders when I lived along the New South Wales coast!
Ed
Ed,
I asked/ask myself the same thing regularly. I may break down and buy a second hand quality jointer, but I do all my work late at night in the garage, which is attached to the house. Therefore, anything that makes noise is out immediately
I'd rather resharpen a plane blade than a jonter blade flattening the fence palings - when I had them scrubbed flat, 3/4 of the work was done.
(Just don't look under the table top, as I only bothered flattening one side and only got the outside 12" to thickness)
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 7/6/2003 7:11:03 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Ed
You should know those Aussie's are hearty from living in NSW. I got a kick from the pubs in Sydney. No tables, just the bar and a rail at the bottom. Open 23 hours a day. They can stand there an drink for 23 hours. Close at 6 AM till 7 AM for clean up. Everyone just bought about 3 beers to hold them on the side-walk outside till 7 AM. ha..ha..
Now I know how they work up that thirst. Obviously hand planing fence palings. < G >
sarge..jt
Thanks for all your in-depth information Larry Williams and Eddie, I like to know the theory behind all the 'this steel is better than that steel' and 'our blades are better than your blades', especially when there are so many conflicting views. I love finding out "why?".
Thanks for those links Eddie, they were very informative. The M-2 looks the goods. While it may be a little more brittle then the A-2, the abrasive resistance appears to be usefully better, and a wee bit higher in the Rc. as well.
Do you get your M-2 blades from Academy? (I already have their number). I read about them in the Australian Wood Review (issue 33) they did a comparo' between Stanley, Record, Hock, Samurai, Holty and Academy. The Academy did very well. Apparently they offer a 'Tough Teddy' at 60-62c and a 'Rock Hardson' at 62-64c.
I'm after a second blade for my 4.5 so I can increase the bevel angle and add a back bevel, there-by increasing the cutting angle for those difficult timbers we all love.
When I first bought my plane, I went straight home, took it out of the box and tried very unsuccessfully to plane a bit of wildly figured myrtle beech (http://www.naturallyaust.com.au/11928.html ), soon becoming extremely frustrated at this expensive, useless tool. It is now rapidly becoming a thing of beauty as I learn to tune it and use it properly....sigh.
Ben.
Hi Ben,
Thanks for the feedback. Larry's breakdown was very succinct and readable. Thanks Larry.
Academy have moved to Caloundra, if you don't have the new number, Directory assistance do.
Yes, I use Academy blades - As Larry said, you may find that a standard blade works well enough for you.
I wouldn't get the plane bevel too steep - about 35-40 degrees is as steep as you want to go.
Cheers,
eddie
Ben
Eddie e-mailed me the article you spoke of from Aust. Wood News. It was very helpful as they fairly judged the 6 blades. Results were interesting.
What do you guys have to pay for the Academy on the continent? It seems we are very lucky here in the U.S. to have such a wide variety and very reasonable prices over-all. I wish that were true world-wide, but I seem to be getting a different read.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Sarge
The article has been quite helpful, I only wish they'd also tested LN and Clifton blades to see how the 'stock' blades faired.
The figures I have are from the article, which was written end of 2001 the Academy was $79 AUD, and yes you are very lucky for the variety and availability of WW gear. A lot of US companies don't even post to other countries, and if they do, it's via UPS so a ruler from Incra with the slots in it costs $40 USD for the P&H! Even Fine Woodworking costs about $16 USD (nearly three times the price of the afore mentioned Australian Magazine).....crazy.
That said, it's not all that bad, we often just have to wait for all the fancy new stuff to filter through..... reading about the newest and latest can lead to heart break. LOL.
There are also a few locals who produce some nice tools and machinery....and our timbers are some of the nicest in the world :)
Thanks for starting such an interesting topic Sarge...I salute you.
Ben
Edited 7/7/2003 7:41:37 PM ET by Ben
Ben
I'm aware of the high shipping cost. I have several customers down your way we ship to. Cleve at Ponti-World ( American Pontiac Cars Restoration) has his parts shipped to a company in Los Angeles and then consolidated for a slow boat to Australia to keep cost down.
I have seen some of the woods from down there. I have been to NSW twice. Hope to get back someday. I know also what you mean by filtering down. When I was there, it seemed everything current was slightly behind what we had in the States. The good news is you don't have the traffic and crowds. ha..ha..
Have a great day...
sarge..jt
Sarge.
There are some good deals to be had too, I got the Complete Illustrated Guide to WW, the three book box set posted from FWW for 5$ quite happy with that, thank you.
We have access to all the same tools and machinery you have, as nothing moves to fast in the WW world, It's just new updates like those 'lasers' on the drop saw, or the new cutter head style for jointers (the one with all those little blades), that can be a bit hard to get a hold of. Which is not a big deal really......cause I couldn't afford one any way. LOL.
I live in Melbourne (bottom right hand side of Australia) and I think it's the best city in the world (just a little cold right now). I invite everyone in Knots to c'mon over and have a look around.
Ben.
Ben,
I saw an absolutely unforgettable performance of Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream" outdoors one night in Melbourne with my girlfriend of that era and a bottle of wine. Royal Botannic Gardens? Something like that,...wonder if they still do that. The other lasting memory of Melbourne is being afraid to drive my car because the right-of-way rules were somehow different from the rest of Australia and thus doubly unintelligible to a dense Yank like me. Would have liked to have spent more time there. Spent some time on the historical trail of Ned Kelly in Victoria.
Ed
Ed.
Yes, they still do outdoor plays in some of the public gardens around Melbourne, not right now though, bit to chilly (13c)
Melbourne's road rules have since been changed to more or less match the rest of Australia....phew. No, all you have to look out for now is the speed cameras. lol
Ben.
Ben
Never been to Melbourne. I am aware of where pretty much all the major cities there are as they are all on the coast. They actually used to teach geography here in the U.S... My son couldn't point out his own state of Georgia on a U.S. map as evidence they don't emphasize it as much anymore.
Now Ed saw a Shakespear play in Melbourne. I saw the musical "Hair" in Sdyney in 1969 with Ms. Sandra Griffins. She had a jewelry shop in "Kings Cross". Now those were the days. Austrailians are a hearty, fun lot. I went spear-fishing with Sandra an I asked her what do we do if we encounter a shark? Her reply was just to bop it in the nose with the back of the spear-gun, no problem. Bottom line is, I swam behind her while we were "down under". ha..ha..
Would love to visit for about two months at lest, an hope to one day not so far off. If you are over Sdyney way, give my regards to the lovely Ms. Griffins. Probably the last name is not Griffins anymore. Change seems to be inevitable.
Regards from the Southeastern U.S. ...
sarge..jt
Sarge.
I'm fast getting out of my depth on this one....I was born in 1979......
Kings cross is about the roughest part of Sydney now days (as far as I know). Don't know you'd find many jewlery shops there any more.
As for the shark...what's the problem? We still use the same method to get the Kangaroos of the couch so we can watch the footy, an' don't get me started on those wombats........ crickey! (copyright Steve Erwin) ha ha ha.
Think you'll find there may have been a few changes...one or two at least...
Ben.
Ps. I may have altered the course of this topic a little....sorry.
Ben
It may not agree with everyone, but I find humor to be a often needed relief from the normal "cut and dry".
I'm sure there have been changes. That's sad, as I loved your country just the way it was. I'm sure I still would an expect I could adjust to the up-grades. If you don't, you get left behind.
I have a feeling that "Kings Cross" has probably evolved into the rough section of town. It was the party section back then and could be rough on occasion. I could handle rough back in those days. I think I might have seen a few changes in my out-looks since then too. ha..ha..
G'day mate...
sarge..jt
Tool steels are generally mixtures of iron, carbon and other alloys. Depending on the other alloys (manganese, phosphorus, sulphur, nickel, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, cobalt and others) added you control the properties of the steel. Newer tool steel developments include some powder technology where the different alloys are combined outside the furnace then bonded in various ways. While woodworking catalogs and woodworking lore seem to pretend hardness is the only property that's variable, tool steels have other variables including toughness, heat resistance, wear resistance, elasticity, ability to withstand shock, grain size, stability during heat treating, depth of hardness from the surface, and a whole host of others.
More common tool steels are divided into their heat treating requirements. They're quenched in water (usually a salt brine), oil, air or high temperature quenches like molten salt or molten lead. Water quenches faster than oil, oil faster than air and so on. The longer or higher temperature the quench, the less distortion of the hardened steel and the deeper the hardness.
Through the heat treating process you can create O-1 that's harder than W-2 or A-2 or the other way around. It all depends on how the steel is heat treated and what properties you're looking to get.
After hardening more common steels are at their maximum hardness but too brittle for many applications and they have to be tempered or heated to a point where they loose some of their hardness but gain toughness. For water, oil or air hardening steels the tempering temperatures are usually between 325º and about 900º depending on the properties or qualities required. Generally, the higher the tempering temperature, the softer but more tough the end product. Cryogenic tempering or low temperature freezing is done after the normal hardening and tempering process and speeds molecular crystalline changes in the more exotic highly alloyed steels.
If you're looking for more than this over simplified version of my limited knowledge on metallurgy, I suggest you start with current copy Machinery's Handbook then go to some more specialized publications. Like everything else in woodworking, there are trade-offs. What you gain in one quality, you loose in another depending on your metal and heat treating choices.
Hi Larry,
You wrote:
< I sure wouldn't recommend sharpening HSS plane irons with water stones. I avoid them anyway because maintaining their flatness is more work than the tool sharpening I do. While their aggressive cutting would be nice with HSS, you'd have the stone out of flat before you finished with a single iron.>
And, of course, using an out-of-flat abrasive surfaces create out-of-flat blade surfaces. I just broke down and purchased the entire line of Norton waterstones (220, 1000, 4000, and 8000) and while they are relatively fast - they were also out-of-flat relatively fast (easily within the time spent on a single blade) and, therefore, so was my plane iron's back. Harumph! Can I ask what you recommend for flattening, honing, *especially* polishing the back of blades/chisels/etc? I just came from being a loyal fan of the abrasive-sheet-on-glass-mounted-on-MDF but wanted to see if I couldn't be more efficient in my efforts. Your opinion of Shapton stones?
[A relevant aside- I'm feeling guilty about asking for any of your time, but I figure that you are obviously free to pass on the response, ergo my conscience load is lightned a bit]
Bigtime thanks-in-advance for your time and opinion!
Sincerely, Peter T.
Peter
Good question there. I am considering moving from water-stones to the sand-paper method as it appears to be less messy, and quicker. I may keep the 6000 stone for final honing. I am curious what others think is the best method. It's not that hard to keep the water-stones flat if you don't mind working. I use a green stone to flatten them an a nagura block to flatten the green stone. I have seen mesh screens, concrete blocks, etc. used. When I think about it, is is a pain in the arse. Henceforth, the possible change to something else.
I have a feeling this might turn out to be a "right-tilt or left-tilt" question. I cut my teeth on Arkansas stones, but good grade ones are difficult to find anymore.
Evening...
sarge..jt
Mr. Willaims
Ahhh... Holding out heh.. ha..ha.. Just took a little trip to Arkansas with the help of this computer. Eddie pointed me in the right direction. Might as well add another question to the already mounting list.
Are there any good Arkansas stones still available. I had heard and read that most were made from particles now. If you could confirm that or put it too rest. I still have one that is double sided that I recieved as a gift back in 1973. I leave it in the wooden box it came in at this point. If the real deal source has dried up at this point, that's where it will stay.
Thanks, and have a great holiday week-end...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
The best of the Arkansas stones are the translucent Hard Arkansas. Yes, they're available and I think one of the best stones on the market. There isn't a lot of it around and what's quarried is from the Hot Springs area. Your best bet for translucent Arkansas stones is from a Norton dealer but one or two other small quarries have small amounts of it. I buy mine from a woodworking supply place in New York.
They're a Norton dealer and have the best prices I've seen. I also have a bit of a financial conflict because they also sell some of our stuff. Since they're a Fine Woodworking advertiser, I guess it'd be okay to post their web site but let me suggest you shop around because of my conflict. The link is:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=TH
As to what steel for an iron; if you can get it, I'd ask for W-1. It's a little harder than O-1 after hardening and, when tempered for the same toughness, it's still a little harder. W-1 is very difficult to find in the US other than in drill rod. Flat stock just isn't available that I've found. O-1 is very close as is O-2 and the lack of vanadium in O-2 would make for a ever so slightly better iron. O-2 is available but only in big commercial quantity. That kind of leaves O-1.
A-2 would be great if you can find a commercial heat treating source that's already running batches of steel of a similar thickness and size. When size or thickness changes, so does the ideal temperatures and times. No one will change the settings on a staged atmosphere controlled furnace for a single item--well they might but you'd better have deep pockets. The only way one of these furnaces is economically viable is with a lot of volume and volume of similar dimensions. I don't know who does the heat treating for Lie-Nielsen but they do a very good job. The same with Hock irons. While it'd probably be cheaper just to buy a Lie-Nielsen or a Hock, if you could send an A-2 iron to the facility that does their work, I think you'd have a pretty good chance of getting a great iron back.
Edited 7/5/2003 4:06:02 PM ET by Larry Williams
Larry
Thanks for the detailed reply. I will question my BIL on what scraps they might have at Delta. I know they use a variety of different things. If he doesn't have access to what I and he feels is sufficient for the iron, I may go another route.
I have a $50 gift certificate at Highland Hardware here in Atlanta. They carrry the Hock replacement irons in both high carbon and A2. I may just go the high carbon after the inside scuttle you've en-ligthened me with. The original Stanley iron is actually cutting well after I dressed it and put the proper edge to it. Taking 1/64" shavings off the end of red oak without a problem. I will test it on pine in the morning. If it will take the clean shaving off the soft-wood without tear, I might just opt to keep it on-board. Probaly no sense in over-kill if it's doing what I require already.
Thanks for the update on the Arkansas stones. They're not on every shelf anymore like 30 years ago. I learned sharpening with a "Arky". I use several methods now as I usually sharpen during week-day evenings when I don't have time to get anything major started.
Thanks for your patience and well thought out answers. I have learned some very helpful things here. Looking forward to seeing a C & W in person. I get to see the H N T Gordons an Primus at Highland often. I have strayed from planes in general, but I always stop and admire the wooden ones as I pass by the shelves there. There's just something about them that attracts, even if you don't get to hear that beautiful whisping sound when they are at their task.
Highest Regards...
sarge..john t
Thank God for Larry William's voice of reason.
Hi Chas,
Doing a fairly large thicknessing job by hand at the moment. The wood I'm working is a fairly cranky old growth eucalypt (probably river red gum) - cut in the 1930's when there were still a fair/large amount of native forests remaining. It's now heavy (sinks if in bucket), hard as the hobs of hell and stalls the plane if you take an average shaving.
Following on from Larry's comments, I did the following:
Took an iron from a Sandusky Jointer (c1900-1920), ground 3mm off the blade to ensure that there wasn't any heat softened edge (ie: from previous owner before I got the plane), rehoned to razor sharp (paring pine end grain with no tearout), re-set plane and it took two-three strokes to blunt (scraping dust, not shavings). Repeat - 2-3 strokes.
Took a Mathieson wood try plane, same procedure, same result.
Took a Record blade (bought 2 years ago), reground, honed to same as others, took 15 strokes
The M2 blade that I'm using needed 4 honings in 5 hours of work. ( I gave up counting strokes at about 100). I've hit three softer boards in the patch (Qld Maple or Myrtle and Messmate, looking at them) and I'm still on the same edge for the last 3 hours
So, I suppose that as well as the voice of reason (which I listened to, as I respect and acknowledge Larry's wisdom and experience) I'd say that there are advantages in the longevity of blade edge in the fancy alloy blades for me and the work I do.
As Larry said, if you're going 2 days without needing to hone, why bother. But 2 strokes is cause for concern.
I'm a trained cabinetmaker - if you want details of how I sharpen, I sharpen freehand, pretty well the same as this procedure. Several pages follow explaining balance of procedure. Edge is honed on 2000# wet & dry (worn) and then honed on piece of softer wood loaded with green compound. Edge is straight and flat.
Have I missed anything in the translation - what else other than the type of steel is causing the dramatically altered blade life. Wood was clean and not gritty.
I look forward to any constructive criticism you may have.
Thanks and regards,
eddie
Edited 7/9/2003 8:04:42 PM ET by eddie (aust)
We have some woods in the US with a high silica content as well. Some like Western red cedar also contain some very soft sections of wood where the deflection further adds to their abrasive nature. I avoid most of these woods. I can see where HSS irons would be a help but we have such a wonderful variety of woods with great working properties, strength and beauty most people in the US would never use the woods in the first place.
My brother (Mines Alumni with that year's silver diploma, Charles) just returned from New Zealand and brought me a ruler made from a variety of their native woods. I had been tempted to hunt a couple of 'em down for some experiments. This thread gives me second thoughts--I don't need to spend money to import more problems.
Thanks Larry,
Most importantly for making me check that it wasn't a poor memory and that the blade life really was that poor - at least I've convinced myself now.
If you want a coffin smoother-sized billet of any of our woods, let me know what you're looking for - Me picking up a 4 x 4 offcut and surface mail has to be cheaper than trying to import it.
Cheers,
eddie
Cheers, Eddie. I'll keep your experience in mind.
Thanks Chas,
We've gopt a lot of softer and easier to work hardwoods too - I picked old wood for what I was doing (workbench top). Normally I wouldn't bother working this, but the wood is the right on for the application.
Wasn't expecting it to be this hard, but.
Cheers,
eddie
I always thought harder steel was necessarily more brittle and therefore easier to chip. But I'm a woodworker and not a metallurgist.
I've become a reasonably accomplished hand tool user and bought a Hock blade. It was nice, but I kept chipping the hell out of it on Maple. To be honest with you, I put the stock Record blade back in the plane and have few problems. I've often wondered if the Hock blade that I bought was somehow defective. I really didn't care to find an answer, because the planes that I have work fine anyway. Curiosity got the better of me and I bought one to see what the hoopla was all about. It may be in a drawer in my shop somewhere, but I may have even chunked it.
It's my opinion only, but all this super-duper, cryogenically treated stuff is WAY over-hyped. All a plane needs to be able to do is take a relatively thin, even shaving with a modicum of physical effort on your part. In the grand scheme of things planes are very simple tools. You don't have to learn every nuance of their history and engineering to make one work. Lots of fine wooworking has been done over the years with plane irons that have not seen a liquid nitrogen bath.
You've overdone something. Four hours is ridiculous. That plane will work with about an hour's work and all of that time is not spent honing the iron. It's possible that you've bought the world 'record' lemon, but I doubt it. My gut feeling is that in flattening the back of the iron, you've made some sort of mistake.
A microbevel is a convenience to the user. It keeps you from having to hone the entire face of the bevel. The M-B should be kept at a sixteenth or less. When the iron starts to cut poorly, you simply hone the microbevel and not the entire primary bevel. With that said, there is no reason you have to use a microbevel. Honing the entire bevel is not that much more work, but you will lessen the life you will get out of the iron. Maybe you'll get eight years use instead of ten. You see? No big deal. Sometimes I find that dicking around with a microbevel is more work than just honing the damned iron. I usually can't hold the blade perfectly at the primary bevel angle anyway, and end of with a microbevel anyway. I don't worry about it. I put the plane to wood to see if it will take a thin shaving. If it does, I'm done and on to the woodworking.
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