Replies

1. 
   BG | Jun 27, 2003 12:45pm | #1

   Matt,

   There is no question that you should be severly beaten with cooked spaggetti for that post....lol

   First of all, what the He&*^% are you doing reading the instructions...especially when a glance at the pictures on the box is all you should ever need...if that. Second, isn't the depth of the miter slot the key variable for pulling the face of the Incra fense out of perpendicualr?

   Now, lets get to the real stuff. I have a 4x10' sheet of high quality laminet (sp?).  If I replace the screw between the runner and the circle thing with a longer screw and slip in a square piece of the laninet (2x3')....do I have the makings of a Incra 5000?

1. 
   mgumaer | Jun 27, 2003 02:28pm | #2

   I don't think it's miter slot depth. If depth was too short to accomadate the bar, the miter base plate would not rest on the table top (which would be immediately apparent). If the bar was too short, well, what is too short? It should just dangle harmlessly in the miter slot.

   On to the more important question, can you convert to a miter 5000? I would think the answer is yes. You would probably want to secure the laminate down it's length to the miter bar to make sure the laminate can't possibly pivot at all. It may be tougher to secure the offcut side of the laminate that supports the cut off piece during and after the cut. Two downsides would be loss of blade cutting height and having to remove the damn thing (especially depending on how you attach the offcut side) every time you want to use you rip fence.

   Matt

1. 
   BG | Jun 27, 2003 02:52pm | #3

   Matt,

   Maybe I'm missing your point...( I stared a lot at Nancy in Geometey class)...but if the steel runner on the Incra is loose in the miter slot ie. can move up and down...then there is likely to be a slope to the steel runner and pull your incra fense out of perpendicular with your TS top?

   I suspect attaching the laminet to the steel runner in other places may be an issue....also, I loose the use of the dado blades (right tilt) with a table attached.  Better keep my cross cut sled seperate....  

2. 
   jimmyk | Jun 27, 2003 03:00pm | #4

   I think BG is correct; if the steel runner wasn't exactly the same thickness as the depth of the miter slot, then it would sag which means the fence face wouldn't be square. Each slot depth will be different, so each fence will have to be individually adjusted.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 27, 2003 06:53pm | #5

   Sure am glad you guys figued this out, I'm in the dark.  My geometry distraction was named Craig.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   mgumaer | Jun 27, 2003 07:44pm | #7

   I hate to disagree but the idea that the metal runner has sufficient mass and insufficient strength to cause it to sag doesn't seem likely. Conceivably, it could tip forward if the base plate had insufficient mass to counterbalance the runner but, this is not the case.

   Lateral slop in the track would cause the fence to be out of perpendicular with the blade when the gauge was set for 90 degrees but should not effect the face of the fence being perpendicular to the table.

   Think about how you test the fence for perpendicular with the table. You put one side of a square on the table and one side on the face of the fence. If the base of the Incra jig was perpindicular to the face of the fence as it comes out of the box, it should be like butting two squares up against one another (so assuming the table is in one plane, no hills or valleys, it should work without fail).

   If I showed my wife these posts of mine, I think she'd recommend some obsessive/compulsive counseling so, maybe I'll bow out now (if I can reist the temptation).

   Thanks for the thoughts and input.

   Matt

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 27, 2003 08:03pm | #8

   Wait a minute Matt, you reall must stick around for at least 24 hours.  Not fair to post and run like that!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   BG | Jun 27, 2003 08:19pm | #9

   Matt,

   FG is correct. You can't leave like that...ya gotta help us get Craig...lol

   Okay, let's take your example...but please, no spouces or we'll be in trouble cause they'll think we want a new table saw....

   when you put the Incra in the miter slot is the fense face perpendicular to the table? 

   Can you tilt the fense ie. move it out of perpendicular?

   Is the runner on the Incra moving up and down in the mite slot?

   that is my only point 

1. 
   mgumaer | Jun 27, 2003 10:46pm | #10

   All right, I'm back. But, be forewarned. I've already described you folks to my wife as enablers. I've gone so far as to take the position with her that, absent your influence, I would appear nearly normal in polite company.

   In an effort to separate my much maligned (or misaligned, that is the question) table saw from the process (it and I are still quite sensitive and haven't yet recovered from the great overhead bathtub leak of '99), I removed my new Incra jig from the saw and put one side of my trusty square on the Incra base plate and the other on the front face of the Incra fence and sure enough, shimmed a lovely 90 degrees, but unshimmed a disappointing 89.999 degrees (just kidding, actually noticably not square). While the shim that I made from my Incra product registration card seems to work just fine, its a little disappointing that a $150 system isn't square to start off and that the manual suggests that somehow the tablesaw is to blame.

   Matt

1. 
   DBishop | Jun 27, 2003 10:57pm | #11

   I didn't sleep through geometry although I've never used an Incra miter.  But just a guess if the bar that is attached to the miter gauge is a little shallower than the miter groove (which it should be or else it would be proud a little).  If the end of the gauge is thinner it would tend to dip down and make the face of the miter out of square a little... 89.5 degrees maybe?

2. 
   forestgirl | Jun 28, 2003 12:57am | #12

   Matt, my Incra 1000 was perfectly square right from the box.  You have my permission <laugh, hah hah> to call Incra and ask them about the variation from 90* and see if they'll send you a replacement.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   RoyinMD | Jun 27, 2003 07:32pm | #6

   I agree with BG, Who needs Distructions?

4. 
   phenom01 | Jun 28, 2003 06:58pm | #13

   I'm a little late to the discussion, but I saw this and had to respond.

   I bought the original incra miter about 3 years ago. It was before the others came out, so I am not sure what number it is. While setting it up, I noticed the face of the aluminum extrusion was not square to TS top. After taking the fence apart, I found that the face of the steel bracket which holds the fence was not square to the TS top and to a much greater degree the aluminum extrusion was not square (not uncommon). I contacted incra and was told to shim the fence and that I shouldn't expect too much from the tool. After exchanging a number of emails incra's response becoming curt rather quickly, it was clear they had no concern for customer service and did not believe their own hyperbole (hence...). 

   I then sent the extrusion to them as per the warranty. They did nothing but return it to me. Since, I have not and will not spend a dime on any incra junk. I still have the miter. When I use it, as I change from angle-to-angle I must fine tune it with a machinist's bevel protractor or it won't give me the correct angle. My biggest regret is that I was too polite with incra.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 28, 2003 07:16pm | #14

   Well, if we can talk Matt into calling Incra, I guess we'll find out if Incra's customer service has improved since Phenom's experience!  I would really like to find out!  Matt????forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   SparrowHawk | Jun 28, 2003 08:10pm | #15

   For what it's worth ... I've got the 2000 miter and had a bit of a mishap a couple months ago. I had the miter sitting on another table in my shop and was cutting a small piece of wood. I'm embarassed to admit it but it kicked back, flew across the room and struck the fence shearing the two nylon threaded bolts that hold the stop in place. I looked for replacements on the Incra site but was unable to locate these two parts so I decided to email them and ask. I was NOT asking for warranty - after all, the accident was my responsibility. They emailed me back within an hour to say they were sending replacement bolts in the mail free of charge. They showed up within 3 days. I would suggest that perhaps the earlier post of a bad experience with Incra support may have been an isolated incident. I do understand however, why someone would refuse to deal with a company after having a bad experience with them ... that said, we also need to remember that companies change, policies change, personnel change ... and the incident was sometime in the past. I do not believe it is fair for everyone to judge a company based on someone else's negative experience without giving the company a chance to make it right. Contact Incra and see what they will do.

   Ken 

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 28, 2003 08:16pm | #16

   Well said, Ken.  Given the quality of Incra products and their standing in the market, it's hard for me to believe that they don't generally give good customer service.  One isolated incident from several years ago isn't sufficient evidence to condemn an entire company with.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   phenom01 | Jun 28, 2003 09:24pm | #17

   Granted it is anecdotal, but for me it is more than sufficient. Considering I was conversing with the owner of the company and he contradicted his gaurantee of the tool's capability, which is on the cover of the manual, I cannot in good conscience give them any of my money. And since I've heard other people state they've had the same out-of-square problem, I have no problem sharing my experience.

   I probably should have said nothing. Then everyone would have thought that it was an isolated, once-in-a-millenium problem and the pristine image of incra would remain unblemished :)

   Edited 6/28/2003 2:39:04 PM ET by Phenom

2. 
   mgumaer | Jun 30, 2003 02:47pm | #18

   Now that its shimmed, my gauge seems to work just fine (although I've only cut 90s and 45s so far. I'm not sure I consider the lack of perfect squareness to the table (which is correctable with shimming) a defect as such. I just think its a little inaccurate (dare I say dishonest) for them to suggest in the manual that this is a table surface issue and not an Incra fabrication tolerance, however you want to look at it. I don't feellike I need to return it or go through the customer service route. If it wasn't easily correctable with a shim, I'd probably feel differently.

   Matt

3. 
   BG | Jun 30, 2003 03:06pm | #19

   Matt,

   I did check mine yesterday and found it to be not square either.  Of course, mine is a 1000se and, therefore I probably didn't get the fancy shimming material that you got with the 2000....warrenty card?

   I'm going to call them today and see if they will send me yours....lol.

   Seriously, it is poor marketing to bill yourself as a precision tool to make precision angle cuts...and not have the face of the fense square to the bar.  Perhaps they claim all fenses need to be squared to the TS, therefore it makes no difference....but still, what does it take to do it right?

4. 
   forestgirl | Jun 30, 2003 06:38pm | #20

   "...what does it take to do it right?"  Therein lies the question, and the answer might be (I dunno) "a lot."  At the woodworking show last year, I was watching a demo of some extruded(?) aluminum 90* corner blocks developed for gluing up cases.  Extremely good number with respect to accuracy in the 90* corner bend.  But then, I asked the guy about the 90* angle from the base upwards (parallel to the case sides). No guarantees there, and he said it would greatly increase the cost of production to provide the same tolerance in that angle.  Oops!  If that's not 90* too, the case ain't gonna square up very well.  In that particular tool instance, no shimming was possible.

   Does it make sense that it would be that more expensive to closely control 2 angles rather than just one?

   PS:  today's my day off, hence the "dunno"s and "ain't"s -- just feelin' relaxed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

5. 
   BG | Jun 30, 2003 08:40pm | #21

   FG,

   I'm curious, is your perpendicular?  When I get a chance I'll throw some washers on and hope that that will take care of it.  Interestingly, the first thing I used mine for was/is a set of 6 glue up 90s...just some right angle 45's made of ply with some 1x2 scraps glued to each side.

   I saw Norm for the first time in a long time this past Saturday.....he was using the Osborn..

   have a nice day off... 

6. 
   forestgirl | Jun 30, 2003 09:46pm | #22

   Yep, my 1000 came to me exactly 90* to the table top.  I fell in love immediately.  Now that I've put a couple of saw nicks in it, it truly feels like mine!  [Sheesh!]forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

7. 
   phenom01 | Jul 02, 2003 01:27am | #23

   It is not uncommon for an unbalanced extrusion not to be square. It is a simple matter of a jig and a semi-skilled worker to mill it square. So, it is not difficult to 'get it right.'  However, I would guess that they have the extrusions cut to length and anodized before they get to incra. Making it relatively difficult/expensive to fix the problem. They would either have to hold off the anodizing or strip and re-anodize after squaring. So, to cut costs it is much easier to tell the customer to fix the problem.

   Initially, that was the rub for me. Incra touts the guage as a precision tool, much like Starrett or Brown & Sharpe does with their tools, than they say "shim it. " If you bought a 36" Starrett straight edge and it was out .3750" over it's length would you accept a "shim it" response from them?

8. 
   forestgirl | Jul 02, 2003 03:27am | #24

   I understand your pique in this matter, but isn't shimming pretty much a one-time thing?  Once it's shimmed 90* to the bar, seems like it should stay that way pretty much.  I guess I'll accept the possibility of having to do this if it costs me $30 less for the gadget.  The indexed angle stops and their precision are of primary importance to moi.  Maybe I'm missing something, though.  Glad mine arrived at 90* anyway.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)