Replies

1. 
   DougF | Sep 25, 2003 04:49pm | #1

   Hi Chris,

   At one level, the tools you need are really more dictated by the type of work you think you will be doing.  At another level, I think most ww will agree that TS is a basic requirement.  For almost 30 years I managed with a TS and RAS plus the normal supply of power hand tools.  Were I starting over on a limited budget,  I think I would put more money if a cabinet saw and make a good sled to handle my cut-off work rather than spending the money on the RAS.   For repetitive cut-off work you could use am inexpensive cut-off saw rather than the RAS.   However, used RAS are easy to find, particularly Craftsman 10".   

   When I added the portable 13" planner I added new dimensions to my work since I could now "customize" rather than being limited to pre-milled stock.  When I added the jointer/planner, this too provided another avenue of milling stock.  Then came the band saw and a whole new world of options opened up.  Some will argue that I could have accomplished most of this new-found capability with hand tools and they are right.  Since I am self-taught and never was exposed to traditional hand tools, it was natural that I would attempt to master my power tools.  Interestingly, I now find myself migrating to hand tools since I have gained the confidence that I can build quality pieces and sometimes power tools have limitations.   And, you get tired of the noise.

   All of this equipment can be put on rollers for easy storage.  Workbenches can be designed to fold against a wall when not in use.  I would also consider used equipment since there is little to wear out and parts are relatively inexpensive.

   Last, put not least, dust control.  Even in a small, portable shop,  dust collectors are getting less expensive and will provide a necessary measure to protect your health and maintain a cleaner work environment.

   Good luck - Doug  

2. 
   BG | Sep 25, 2003 05:19pm | #2

   Clwebb,

   I would just echo what Doug said with a few added points.  I have only been at this a couple of years but there does appear to be migatory path as your knowledge and desires for better outcomes evolves.  That pathway usually moves from power tools, to better power tools to hand tools....and then you realize the better power tools arn't that necessary.  However, a good TS provides a tremendous advantage with lots of utility.

   Where I would add to Doug's comments is to include a good solid workbench.   
3. 
   b1gcountry | Sep 25, 2003 05:31pm | #3

   Benchtop tools seem to be getting better everyday. The only difference with a lot of them is the scale of work that is conveivable doing on them. A Floor DP gives you options that a benchtop does not, but the quality, and sometimes, the price can even be the same. It sounds like you will have some interest in taking the TS around with you to your 'site' even if the site is only your backyard. The cabinet table saw gives you stability and power where the contractors saw gives you portability. You can make a decent contractor's TS perform just as good as a cabinet style. The most important thing about any table saw is the fence, the blade, and the motor. If you get a good blade, and a belt driven motor, there will be little real need for a better saw. The fence can be just as good on a portable saw, but probably won't be as long. I'm sure you could set something up where this wouldn't be as much a problem. I personally prefer the lumber yard to cut my sheet goods to rough size before I bring them home. As far as other benchtop tools go, the planers are now almost as capable as their floor mounted bretheren. CMS are all basically portable anyhow, but for jointers, I don't think a replacement has been found in the table top realm. Same for Bandsaws.

   I doubt you would be disappointed if you bought quality benchtop tools. Just don't buy from Harbor Freight, and put good cutters in them, and you can make any quality you really need. It sounds like you could have use for a portable TS even if you had a cabinet saw in the shop, so I wouldn't worry about that one so much. Of course, YMMV

   Tom

4. 
   Len | Sep 25, 2003 06:19pm | #4

   First question. How small is small, 1 car garage, 2 car garage, laundry room? ;-)

   Second question. Budget?

   FWIW.

   I wouldn't skimp on your TS, and I wouldn't buy a bench top. You'll end up building a base for it, anyway. Not to mention, the tables and fences are to small.

   Look for a minimum of a contractor saw. If you have the money, go for a cabinet saw. I would skip the idea of a radial arm.

   Bench top tools are great if you aren't going to use them often. If you think you might be using a tool a lot then go with a mobile base or figure out where it can live. I really disliked moving my drill press on and off my bench so I bought a floor standing one.

   Hope this helps.

   Enjoy and welcome,

   Len

5. 
   BertJ | Sep 25, 2003 07:09pm | #5

   Chris,

   One of the nice things about this forum is the range of experience combined with a significant number of old timers who have "seen it all." My experience is limited--I'm a hobbyist with a small (i.e., one car garage) shop space, as well as limited budget.

   That said, I'm going to suggest a contrary approach. Go with a good portable table saw at this time (Ryobi, Craftsman, etc.) with the addition of a good saw blade. (e.g. Forest WWII). The portability will serve your existing business, and will give you an adequate platform for learning. No, it won't cut sheet goods. No, it won't give you glue-line rip cuts. So learn to hand plane edges and cut your sheet goods on sawhorses with your circular saw and a good straightedge. An inexpensive chop saw will work fine for most crosscuts. Build a crosscut sled (a la Tage Frid) for more accuracy.

   Invest in a few high-quality router bits like a bearing-guided straight, rabbeting bit with multiple bearings, coves of several sizes, perhaps an ogee--you probably know what you need.

   Again, the contrarian--my second power shop tool would be a bandsaw. Great utility and versatility. Get a good resawing blade and save bucks on lumber.

   A sanding machine is also very handy and high on my list of must-haves for a shop.

   And I certainly agree that dust control should not be overlooked. Your health comes FIRST!

   BJ

6. 
   emaillard | Sep 25, 2003 09:41pm | #6

   Hi Chris,

   I would like to add my grain of salt. I am just a beginner hobbyist woodworker. I first got a TS then a planer and a jointer. I will now have to stop buying machines for a while...

   If I were to do it again I would get a Band Saw instead of a table saw as the first stationary tool. An article in the first "Tools and Shops" issue of FWW advocated this choice. The main reasons are the versatility of the BS, the safety (no kickbacks) and less waste thanks to thin blades.

   Eric

7. 
   RANGERP75R | Sep 26, 2003 04:06am | #7

   Chris

      I tried to read what you said carefully. You have gotten some good advise so far. Sounds as though you are on a budget and have a limited space. This is always a problem that most of us enjoy starting out.

      I consider the table saw as my main tool. I can cross-cut and rip. Lumber dimentioning requires both. They can be done by hand, but this reduces much time and effort. Other tools are added as the need arises.

      I will agree with Bert to a point that a portable TS will work if you set it up and build around it. If you need it for a job-site, it can accompany you. If you are dedicating it to the shop, I would suggest cabinet or contractor. But, tweaked to the max and with a little mobile support, it can get the job done. So can other bench-top tools. Over 30 years I find that you are probably more limited by your skill and imagination than a major tool.

      What I suppose I'm trying to say is, Bench-Tops and portables can work efficiently in the proper hands with the proper attitude. I will throw in a few examples below. The TS was portable and just finished a Maple Work-Bench that most stock was 3" x 3". It just required patience, proper sharp blades and a dead-on set-up of the machine.

      BTW, Bert metioned that a portable cannot handle panels. Actually with a little imagination, it can. I cut panels down to 48" X 48" with a circular and guide. After that, I can get within .004" with a portable TS and cross-cut up to 18" wide stock.

   Welcome and good luck...

   sarge..jt

   
8. 
   clwebb | Sep 26, 2003 05:56pm | #8

   Thanks everyone for the good advice. I am limited to half a two car garage, and a pretty small budget. I think my first purchase would probably be a table saw. Probably a contractor saw. I said that I do a fair amount of remodeling, what I forgot to explain is that it is in the house I live in. So portability isn't a huge problem right now, even though I do like some of the better small models.

   I am continuing to read reviews and look at the specifications of certain models. I know that I wan't large rip capacity, good fence, and good dado capacity- as I have found some of the smaller tsaws only accept up to a half inch dado stack or wobble.

   My wish list now goes something like:

   Tsaw, good router table, small jointer, small planer, mortiser, spindle/sand center, eventually a lathe, drill press, band saw, biscuit joiner, etc.

   I would like to eventually be able to handle, a nice chest, tables, cabinets, entertainment centers,etc. Chairs intimidate me with their angles. But there are also a myriad of small project kits that I am itching to build, cd racks, clocks, mirrors... Up until know I have been limited to presized and finished stock since I can't rip and joint. My projects have been,like coat racks, picture frames, small primitive type jewelry boxes etc.

   Again thanks everyone and sorry for the long post. 

   Chris 

1. 
   RoyinMD | Sep 26, 2003 08:11pm | #9

   Hey Chris,

   Like you said, a lot of good advice here. I like your wish list, still working on some of those myself. I'll just add I've had my home shop for 21 years and for the first few years a table saw was the only large tool. You can do a lot with just that.

   Is the other half of the two car garage a car? Its' moveable :o)

   Enjoy, Roy

2. 
   philpolish | Sep 27, 2003 11:02pm | #10

   Hi Chris

   I am going down the same road as yourself. I have been struggling with the lack of space and a budget. Firstly I bought a small contractors saw sometimes I wish I had bought a band saw first but you can get away with a few things on the TS. You dont need a large amount of tools to make cabinets and larger items that you are making. The first thing I wish I had bought a long time ago was a framing square if you dont have a decent square of any description I would buy one. Anything you make must be square, my next purchase is going to be a portable planer thicknesser, it has had good reviews good build quality but as you would expect low capacity.

   There will always be sacrifices if you lack space or money, just use your imagination, it is more fun to struggle sometimes.

   Instead of saying to yourself I cant make anything big, design your work around your tools thats what I have done with good results.

   Anyway keep whacking the wood.

   Kind regards Phil.

3. 
   ian | Sep 28, 2003 04:26am | #11

   Chris,  rather than get into a lenghty "what tool next" discussion, I'll describe the tools my dad and I used on our last project – a pair of bedside tables.  The lumber was purchased rough sawn,  12" x 2" for the legs and 12" x 1" for the rest

   For the legs:hand held circular saw – to cut the 12x2 roughly to length.  tablesaw – to rip the leg blank to rough width, could have used the circular saw and a straight edge Jointer and planner – joint and thickness (to about 1.5") the leg blank, could have used hand planes and a benchtop planer. tablesaw – to rip the leg blank into 4 and taper the legs, removed the tools marks with a hand plane, we would have used the bandsaw to rip and shape if a minimum saw kerf was required.  router with a shop built jig and spiral cutter – mortices in the legs (to take the table aprons), could have been done by hand but we were feeling lazy and wanted to perfect the router technique.  The tennons in the aprons were cut on the bandsaw, but we could have used a router and jig or a dado blade in the table saw. sliding compound mitre saw – to cut the legs to length.

   For the table top and aprons:used the same process, as for the legs to dimension the stock to 3/4" thick, only additional step was .  Needed to rip the boards to less than 10" so they went through our thicknesser. table mounted router – to T&G the boards for the top.  Dad has always T&G'd his table tops to assist alignment during glue up, and for this project went out and bought a dedicated T&G router cutter.  I think it would have been better to either do the T&G by hand with his #45 or to have aligned a butt joint with biscuits.  we glued up both tops as a single long piecehand held circular saw with good cut-off blade and straight edge – to cut the table top into two, then the table saw to cut to finished size, could have used the circular saw and straight edge for all three cuts.   ROS sander – to finish the top

   Each table has one shallow drawer and for these we used:bandsaw – to resaw some QS hardwood to 1/2 before planing to about 3/8 for the sides, again ripped to width on the tablesaw.  The fronts are from a "show" species and finished to about 3/4 cut to length on the mitre sawhand tools – it was quicker to cut the drawer dovetails by hand (2 through, 2 half blind for each table) than to muck about setting up a router jig. 

   All this was done in a one car garage, so here's the invite to other Knotheads –looking at the processes we followed: which tool(s) was nice to have but most got in the way?which tool was most useful and/or versitile?which tool(s) would you drop from our shop and why?  the purchase price of the tool should be part of this considerationAll the large tools are mounted on a mobile base and are dragged out from the wall when necessary to use.Dad and I do this as a hobby (he is retired) so speed of set-up and efficiency are not large considerations

   I'll wait a few days before I post my opinion

   Ian

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Sep 28, 2003 05:03am | #12

   Hi Ian,

   A thoughtful post - I'll be interested in the responses too.

   Cheers,

   eddie

9. 
   Zaharchuk | Sep 28, 2003 09:50pm | #13

   Although definitely not a pro, I would consider myself a fairly good amateur woodworker.  I have made several projects over the last few years including a Morris Chair, several bookcases, an entertainment center, kitchen cabinets for my Cabin, three different versions of an Adirondack chair, two bathroom vanity cabinets, a pie cabinet.

   I started out with a $299 Hitachi 10" table saw which I still have.  It did a good job for the price I paid for it.  It is a sturdy machine which is more tailored to a home construction site than to a furniture makers shop.   I like it for it's portability (came in handy while installing the Oak flooring at the cabin - easy to maneuver in/out of the truck). 

   About 2 years ago I moved up to the 10" Jet Contractors saw which I really like.  It feels much more substantial than the Hitachi.  The level of accuracy obtained with it is much greater as well.  The downside to the Jet is its size and weight.  Many people consider a Contractor's Saw "portable", however it is a HEAVY MACHINE and truly requires two people to move it.  I have mine on wheels so that I can move it around my garage.  I think I paid $599 or $649 for the Jet.

   You can definitely do a lot with a small $300 saw, however, I felt that I outgrew it after a few years.  Its still a great saw, great for using on an outdoor project or where portability is useful.  Another $300 saw that comes to mine is the Makita portable table saw which generally gets good reviews.

   I have several other woodworking tools, which of are both professional grade and non professional grade:

   Makita 9.6v tools including drills, angle drill, trim saw (love that trim saw!)

   Porter Cable 6.5" Saw Boss Circular saw (great for cutting plywood sheets - clean and accurate)

   Older model Skill Biscuit Joiner (my uncle gave me this one - he never used it.....I now understand why Norm is such a fan of biscuits!)

   Older model Black and Decker bench top band saw (picked up at a Garage Sale for $30  --- has served me well for the price!)

   Ryobi drill and random orbital sander (picked up at the Ryobi outlet store -- Ryobi makes a lot of stuff for Craftsman)

   Ryobi laminate trimmer (I actually use this more as a router)

   Older model (from the 70's Craftsman Router

   Harbor Freight (I know what you are all saying.....) $49.99 bench top drill press is a great machine for the price.  Harbor Freight does import a lot of junk, but some of their tools are decent quality for not a lot of dough.   My dad bought a chop saw from them that was a piece of !@#$%.  They do have quite a few decent tools at bargain prices.  It helps if you can visit one of their retail stores to look at their products before you purchase.

   There are some tools that are worth paying good money for (IE a table saw and circular saw), however, there are also many tools you can obtain at decent prices that do not have to be top notch pro grade.

   Just my .02 cents.....

   Adam

     

   
   

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   Edited 9/28/2003 2:53:11 PM ET by AZAHARCHUK

   
   

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   Edited 9/28/2003 3:02:38 PM ET by AZAHARCHUK