Hey gang,
I am in the market for a good final smoothing plane and wanted to get some recommendations.
While I’d love to get a good infill/Norris type, that may be fruitless (or expensive!).
So what I am considering are:
LV 4 1/2 (or the bevel up variety)
LN 4 1/2 (the priciest and diciest budget-wise)
ECE Improved Primus Smoother
Opinions? Votes? I know the ECE claims to be the next best thing to a Norris, anybody have any experiences with it?
I have my share of vintage Stanley’s but I’d rather prefer something that I don’t have to “fix”.
I use mostly cherry, walnut, maple, oak (red and QS White). The usual candidates, but with a smattering of birdseye or tiger maple and cocobolo, when I can.
Thanks
Edited 9/24/2007 10:36 am ET by Ckenney
Replies
Personally, I'd skip them all and get a Clark and Williams coffin smoother. That's one sweet plane!
Just to give traditional woodies their due.
David C
I got the LN 4 1/2 and have been very, very happy. It works great right out of the box. It works even better when you tighten up the mouth (an easy job with the bedrock design), hone the iron to hair-scaring sharpness, and put a little wax on the sole.
I'm sure you'll also get many recommendations for the LV bevel up variety. I have not personally used the plane, but have heard from many satisfied users.
Ultimately, you can't go wrong with either.
Stop eating, save your money, buy one of each! Then you can be a smooth plane-ologist. You can do "reviews" comparing the different brands and wax poetic about cutting geometries and the lack of any significant developments in smooth plane technology or smooth plane understanding for the last 1000 years. You can get a T-shirt that says, "I smooth exotics with interlocking grain, therefore I am." (great beach shirt). You can get a personalized license plate that says, "SMOOTH1." Learn the word "Chatoyance" and work it into every conversation. Rate all woods and their ability to be smoothed with your arsenal of smooth planes under this 5 Level rating system: "Nasty," "Double Nasty," "Partially Petrified Lignum Vitae,""Grain Designed By Satan's Slaves," and "Are You Fricken' Kidding me? - Nobody Could Plane This!"
Then you can come back and tell US which one to buy.
Sorry, having fun w/ some tongue-in-cheek comments. Recommendation same as the above poster. Take care, Ed
Houston Heights was correct--I've got the Veritas Bevel Up Smooth plane and it is a joy to use. You can buy additional blades for it to increase or decrease the cutting angle. I have the stock 38 degree bevel which yields a York pitch of 50 degrees, and a 50 degree bevel which gives a cutting angle of 62 degrees and can handle very figured woods. If the blade is very sharp and the plane is well tuned, there is no tearout on figured woods. The plane has a low center of gravity, has an adjustable throat--and it costs $100 less than the LN 4.5--both are great planes, but I love my LV BUS. Tom
A Knight Toolworks smoother. For fewer $ than the others, it should handle the species you work on just fine.
Regards,
Tim
I have tackled some pretty gnarly timbers with my L-N 4 ½ with the York pitch frog, it has never let me down, including crotch cherry and some really wild walnut. Also my old Stanley #4C with the new A2 blade and improved chip breaker is a great tool also, (the blade cost more than the plane did....
CK, you are in the right neighborhood. HH has a good prescription and Ed's wood list is real except for #1, the straight grain soft or semi-hardwood + his 5. The net, net of my 30 year education is a LV BU jack or a #604 for #1-2, a Millers Falls 4 1/2 or a #605 for 2-3, a Clifton 4 1/2 for 3-4 and a LN 5 1/2 York pitch frog for 4+.
Some would ask why the LN when I have a herd of Cliftons and bed rocks* ? I prefer to not keep swapping out irons to suit the task (except in extreme situations) , the Clifton can't be had with a high pitch and the LN was heavier.
I suggest a quality #4 1/2 for the 1-3 work like LV at $215 plus extra irons at $40 or LN at $300 and an extra $75 York pitch frog or a Clifton at $350 and massive irons at $78( my preference for weight, fit and finish), These will do most of your work unless you live in OZ or Kiwi world where the wood is like twisted stone(according to a dear friend, an expat, who said that he had to drill a pilot hole for a nail to hang a picture in his new house in OZ).As always shop the socks off a buy like this, All the best Paddy
* I am not stupid or crazy(edit-or rich ha ha) as all the Cliftons were bought from a retailer who was getting out of the up scale -#s 3-5-6-7 the 7 for $175, current $450, and the bedrocks bought long before the prices got crazy -#s 604-605-606-608, all clean flat tops fettled with Hock Irons and Clifton two piece breakers, they are sweet.
Edited 9/24/2007 9:28 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
C,
If price is a concern you could consider the Chinese Mujingfang planes (also sold as "Hong Kong style" by Lee Valley:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=46320&cat=1,41182,46334
I don't have a smoother of theirs but do have a try plane and a plough plane. Both are surprisingly good given that the price is so low.
In practice they do not need fettling, except for maybe a sole-flatten, if the plane has been stored in an atmosphere significanty different from yours, humidity-wise. As they are wooden, the flattening is quick (or so I read).
Mine were both usuable "out of the box" with very sharp blades that will take the gossamers, no problem. I read that the bades are made of HSS and they do stay sharp for ages albeit when they do require sharpening it takes a bit longer than does even an A2 blade.
If you Google, you will find some tests on the Web, including a very revealing one by Lyn Mangiameli (part of a test for smoothing with a number of planes of various kinds):
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/haspc.shtml
Lataxe
Edited 9/26/2007 5:48 pm ET by Lataxe
What Lataxe said, with a quick addition:
these planes are primarily (but not necessarily always) used on the push stroke; think of it as a a large spokeshave. Lee Valley's photograph is a bit misleading and implies the usage on the pull stroke (which of course can be done, it is just less common).
Chris Scholz
Galoot-Tools
I emailed Larry about a filletster, and was quoted 2 years!! I'm happy for them, but that's insane.
Jeff
Sorry to chime in there before Charles has even read this, but that is interesting, especially for Blum Planes.... I think there is lot more to those planes than meets the eye (and what does meet the eye looks pretty damned fine to me).
Jeff, order one, use it and then let's see how we can go into production with a better version (;).Philip Marcou
Try getting a saw from Mike Wenz! Since february and still waiting......
I'm glad he's selling a gazillion thru LV and TBT, but don't leave the little guy behind in your quest for the pot of gold.
J.E.
Hi John,
I sent an email to you via Knots. If you do not receive it, please let me know.
We have had two computer crashes this year. Once on my laptop--without back-ups--and once the server after I had gotten everything we could recreated. While I had the server backing up to a second drive, both failed do to a fire. So I have lost a bunch of information despite having the drives sent out for data recovery.
I am extremely behind on correspondance: I have gotten up to 200 emails a week. Due to the large orders placed last year (LV) and in January and February of this year (TBT), my sons are working on the both retail outlet's orders and I am solely working on the individual orders. With other responsibilities, it is simply taking me longer than I also desire to work through them.
I have hired another person--and we are shoe-horned into a 12' x 18' space at the moment. This person is beginning to be of greater help everyday. Once we get moved into a larger space, there are two more people who will be coming on-board. So we do look forward to rectifying our current BO status.
In the meantime, if there is anyone else who has waited so long, please get back in touch. I am down to 200 or so recovered and unanswered emails from the two crashes and 100 or so fairly current emails.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Is there any difference in quality, design, or whatever in the saws you make for special order compared to those you sell through LV or TBT?
Alan - planesaw
Hi Alan,
Hopefully there is no to little difference. I know that there are individual orders that I have been more enthuistic over than others. I feel the same way about the retail saws. For whatever reason, some simply feel different without always being able to identify why.
For instance, I made 3 particular DT saws last month for differrent individuals. I was happy with all 3, but there was one which sawed faster and smoother than any saw I can remember making except one person's. Why that was? No idea. I personally made all three. I sharpened all 3 myself. But one was simply incredible. The other two were very good, so I don't mean anything by setting out the one above them.
In the future, we will be making a change to how we do custom orders--but not until after we get caught up. That's a considerable distance down the road. What those changes are will await another day.
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Thanks. I fully understand the phenomena. I swam on a university swim team (decades ago). What felt like a lousy race could sometimes be my fastest time. What felt great, could be very slow. Same with my woodworking, and as you described with the saws you made. One always puzzles over what did I do different to cause that to be better.
I appreciate your experience and wisdom, and the attitude with which you share it, here on Knots. Glad also to see your sawmaking such a success.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 10/2/2007 5:24 pm ET by Planesaw
2 years is substantial. That's probably more than 10% of the time each customer intends to use it. A black market will develop soon, especially since there is no upfront deposit.
I agree. In any business, there's a very fine line between being busy, and not being able to service your customers. Soon, your customers become somebody else's.
Someday, I'd really like to own a plane or 3 from C & W, but I'll probably have to get it used, as I'll never, ever wait 2 years for anything.
Jeff
I've owned my ECE primus plane for ten years now and let me tell you, I'm still deeply and madly in love with it. If its tuned properly it performes just as nicely as the LN and the LV planes. It's made with two kinds of beautiful woods (lignum vitae and fruitwood), it's very comfortable and weighs less than the other two. If I had to buy another plane, I'd without a doubt buy the same one. Cheers.
Russ.
http://www.jensenfinefurniture.com
I don't think you can beat the LN for the money. I have several old Stanleys including a couple of 4's, 4 1/2's and a Bedrock 604. Once you replace the standard blade with a good aftermarket blade (Hock, etc.) the perfomance is pretty close. The only problem is that a good condition Stanley, especially Bedrocks are getting more expensive every day. So get the LN 4 1/2 and you be will happy out of the box.
The best smoother I have for hardwoods is the ECE Primus 711 Reform Smooth Plane. That being said, I lust after a Lie Nielsen 4 or 4 1/2. My LN Low Angle Jack and Smoother also do a great job as well and Lie Nielsen tools are enjoyed immensely everytime I pick one up or after use. ***Note*** Best within reason expense. The Knight Smooth Plane also works very well, but you adjust the blade depth yourself and usually takes larger hands to hold it. Batter up for other opinions.
Thanks for all the input!
In the short term I'm going to go with a Krenov style, self-made plane. Found a nice piece of purpleheart (3X3X12) when I was up at Woodcraft, and have the Finck book so, time to get working.
Of course, now the question is:
Hock blade/chipbreaker or Finck blade/chipbreaker? (lol)
Hock is cheaper, but Finck is cryo A2.
45 deg or 50 deg or 60 deg?
Decisions, decisions, decisions...
You can always build your own infill !!
St. James Bay Smoother from a machined casting.
couple of hundred for the casting, blade and adjuster.
You supply the ellbow grease.
You get a brand spankin New Infill, Solid Bronze, Mouth as tight as you like and
the satisfaction of using an heirloom you made yourself.
Edited 10/5/2007 10:15 pm ET by Gene_DiNardo
I have an ECE and it is great. I have an LV 41/2 and it is great, and I also have a Lee Valley Low angle smooth plane, which is better.
Veritas¯ Low-Angle Smooth Plane - Lee Valley Tools
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled