I’m already starting a list of things I can do next year when the weather turns good again (July, here in the Puget Sound). How much hassle would it be to do something to our rough cement shop floor to turn it into a smooth floor? I’ve never worked with cement, other than in fence-post holes.
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Forest Girl : Hi Jamie, my advise is your better off just selling your place and moving to another house with a basement that has a nice smooth floor.<Grin>
Only fooling, maybe you can use a cement/sand mix as a top coat and float & trowel it on for a smooth finsh,still its a heck of a lot of work, hope you have a few friends you can rope into helping you... Hmm now that I think of it you could get the cement mix delivered by ready mix truck, then you would only have to either run a chute in your basement or wheel barrow it in??
Take Care... ToolDoc
Fortunately, my shop was born thinking it was a garage, so it's pretty easy access. I hope to never do woodworking in a basement -- the mere thought of dealing with stairs in conjunction with 300+lb. machines gives me nightmares!!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/20/2002 1:54:49 AM ET by forest_girl
FG,
Wow, good responses. It kinda sounds like converting the sows ear into a silk purse is much more than your willing to attempt or can achieve given your climate and the fact that it is a garage..(perhaps designed initially to drain?).
I think one of your major concerns is to have level areas for working the wood and setup...meanwhile keeping your equipment mobile? I'm kinda going through the same process, realizing not all equipment can be mobile and still deliver the service I want. Workbench, TS(when i get a real one) and setup table need level surfaces. The workbench and TS will need permanent locations. For those areas, if the floor is not level, I will frame out, and pour something to level the floor and maybe a slab of plywood....
In other words come up with work arounds to accomodate the situation.
My 2 cents...good luck
BG, glad you have your situation scoped out. Mine is different -- my main "complaint" is the roughness of the floor -- it's basically level, and no cracks other than where they're supposed to be with the wood strip in the middle (whatever that's called). Virtually everything's mobile in my shop, including TS and (soon) main workbench. If I don't make it that way, I have to wait sometimes 2 weeks for help when I get the notion to move it. Naaahhh.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have a 40x40' concrete slab with a somewhat damaged (a tree fell on it a few years ago), shop building on it, but half the building is still usable for now (a very long story). I hope to rebuild the shop next summer, but the concrete floor is not in the plans. It will still be there but a raised plywood floor set on a grid of 2x4's will soften the effect of standing on such a HARD surface as well as give me a place to route all my wiring, air piping, and dust control ducts.
My PRIMARY reason for the extra work has to do with my knees. I have severe osteoarthritis in both, a little worse on the left side. I just can no longer stand on a concrete floor for extended periods without rather intense pain, though certain natural supplements have moderated the pain recently.
You might consider this method of giving yourself a smooth and level floor surface for your equipment as well as a more comfortable place to stand.
Hi Lee, haven't seen you for awhile...I see you were joined by a veritable army of people recommending a wood floor. As much work as it appears to be to get a good cement overlay, and with all the recommendations for wood and its advantages, I may well take a different approach. Thanks for the info.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi FG
From reading your responses to some of the other responses, it sounds like you are looking for a smoother surface to sweep and roll tools around on. If the current surface is say no rougher than a "smooth stucco" job, then you should be able to improve the smoothness considerably with a good expoxy floor paint. You will probably need several coats to get to an acceptable smoothness. If the difference between high spots and low spots is say the thickness of a paper clip you will need five or six coats to get a smooth surface. The cure time goes up considerably at this point and long term adhesion will be compromised. If the surface is any rougher than that, forget the expoxy.
If you are going to go with a cement cap or float a leveling layer--hire out. It's a real pain
PS. I am jealous about your complaints of too much land. I really wish I had those problems.
Good Luck
Michael
> ...How much hassle would
it be to do something to our rough cement shop floor to turn it into a smooth floor?
Define "rough". As in uneven (undulating for lack of a better word), or rough like in textured like a sidewalk only on a grander scale (grin)
In either case, the primary concern is proper bond to of a thin feathered topping over the old stuff. Cleanliness is of paramount importance. Etching (acid work ... nasty stuff) to create a good bondable surface. Use of bonding agents. Do *NOT* use simple portland cement concrete or mortar mix - there are specific materials made for floor leveling that bond well (to a properly prepared existing slab) and that will not shrink up crack like a cement paste would.
How thick a topping do you think you'll need? How much headroom can you afford to lose with a topping slab as opposed to a thin leveling coat?
If you've never worked concrete or cementitious materials before, I would suggest leaving this to people who do. I don't doubt that with your determination and will would be the least bit afraid of tackling this kind of thing. But you can end up with a bigger mess than what you started with if you don't understand the material. If your glue kicks off on you when you're only half thru with the assembly, you've wasted some material and whatever time it took to get to that point. If your concrete blows up on you (that's a trade term for getting too hard too fast -grin-) .... well, you get the idea.
I think the idea of putting a plywood floor down on sleepers (again if you have the room to permit it) would be a lot easier approach for you with what you know about working with wood. You could shim the sleepers level and have a real nice floor. Rent a Ramset - powder actuated fastener, to "shoot" them down to the slab. There are some caveats here, too, though.
You'll need to seal the slab to prevent vapor condensation within the sleeper cavity. A layer of 15lb roofing felt would be appropriate over the entire floor. For the same reason we vent the crawl space under our house, we should allow for some kind of air movement in this caveity. I wouldn't use a grid of sleepers since this is hard to vent or allow any air flow. Some large gym floors installed over concrete slabs actually used to incorporate a special base moulding with slots in it that would allow air passage.
Or, you could do the full monty and bust up the slab and install a new one!
[email protected]
Dennis, thanks for the detailed caveats on working with "cementitious materials" -- as usual your info is eye-opening! The floor is textured to be rough. What they used, I couldn't say. No cracks or undulations that I've noticed, but it is very rough.
My "determination and will" as you put it are beginning to take a back seat to my back's mileage problem, so big projects such as this one are no longer a serious temptation to conduct a DIY effort! Probably will keep out of some trouble, yes? Wood's looking like the way to go.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie -
The description of the "finish" on the floor changes my tune (a little). There's still no free lunch but ....
If the floor is more or less 'flat', that is doesn't have large waves in it, but is more like someone dragged a rake through it while it was wet and then just left it like that, we have another situation.
There are products designed for both leveling and smooting out rough slabs like this. RaycoLith(sp) is one that I know of. (I worked several years for a general contractor doing lots of concrete detailing is my background). This stuff is not 'self leveling' in the sense that you have to mix, level and trowel to get the finish you want. While it's a lot of work, it might be possible to do it in sections rather than tackle the entire slab at one bite.
As I mentioned, cleanliness is paramount. Since we're talking initial intent of the space as a garage, is there a buildup of oil/grease from drips from parked cars? This would require some deep cleaning to remove all traces possible. Pressure washing the entire slab is the first step. The "tooth" of the texture would provide a good bonding surface once it's adequately clean.
Another possibility would be a lightweight concrete topping slab. This is done quite a bit over rough structural slabs to get a nice level smooth surface for floor coverings. The only problem with this material is - to get it to be self leveling it's usually installed as a very fluid mix. The excess water required to get this kind of workability = shrinkage = cracks. Cracks that can be pretty extensive and wide. But after a given cure time they could be filled if objectionable.
The wood floor option still sounds like the easiest and most appropriate solution to your problem given your skill focus (woodworking vs cement finishing -grin-). If I were doing it, though, I'd save a little more money and go for 2-4-1 plywood (1 1/8" T&G plywood). It's not a furniture finish by any means but I think it's at least the equal of OSB. The advantage? - rolling heavy equipment over it will result in less deflection between the sleepers which makes it easier to move the big stuff. You could even go to 24" centers on the sleepers and reduce the amount of sub framing required.
If you do the sleeper/wood floor thing, are you thinking of standing the sleepers on the 1 1/2" edge or lying them flat?. You could rip 2x4's down the center and go with 2x2 for that matter. Unless you want to take advantage of additional interstitial space for running wiring or stuff.
How much property do you have? Our 'new' place is on 2+ acres. I can relate to your on going combat with landscaping. (grin)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Hi Dennis, I think the info posted in this thread has steered me away from any kind of concrete re-finishing (other than the possibility of the epoxy paint). Waaaay too involved and expensive, too many caveats. The wood option is intriguing, but given how much I already have lined up for next year's 3-month-summer, I'm not sure it's feasible (besides, if I'm actually doing any woodworking-for-money, Hah!, I won't have as much time as I did this year. I Hope!!)
A couple of rubber-mat possibilities were mentioned -- the wrestling mats and the conveyor-belt material. I'd be happy if those worked out -- smooth enough to make cleaning up easier, cushioned for my poor ol' bones, and not too difficult to get installed. You must know of "Murphy & Murphy" auctioneers -- big-industry-focused outfit -- bet they'd have some conveyor stuff come up at some point.
(PS: About 3 acres I think? None of it's "mine" -- all my sig-o's. I own the cat, the tools, and my business -- the important stuff -- the rest is his, LOL. On Bainbrige, I'd not be able to afford the property tax, for cryin' out loud.)
To All: Keep 'em coming -- your ideas and input are greatly appreciated!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/20/2002 11:37:56 PM ET by forest_girl
OK, a skim coat or topping slab is out. I doubt you'd be any happier with the epoxy paint results than you are with your current floor. It'd just be prettier with the same degree of roughness. None of the epoxy coatings I know of have enough build to actually fill the kind of 'texture' I'm envisioning on your floor. Unless of course you apply sufficient coats to provide that kind of millage. Have you priced this stuff? (grin)
How often do you have to move your machinery? Of all the stuff I've seen you write about, the jointer sounds like the heaviest piece, no? Is it on a mobile base? If so, try rolling it over some of the floor covering options you have in mind. That might be a consideration.
Don't plan on moving the machinery all that much or at all? That opens up lots more possibilities. I have ... are you ready ... ?carpet? scraps around most of the machines in my shop/garage. It's not really all that hard to maintain. The pieces are in the neighborhood of 3' x 5' more or less. Visit your local carpet dealer and ask her if she's got any new installations coming up and could you have the old stuff. Look for a low level loop pile, not shag, of course. It actually sweeps clean pretty well with a good broom. A good shop vac once in a while gets a little deeper clean.
Hey - don't laugh if you've never tried it (grin).
That's only intended to address the issue of reducing the impact of standing on bare cold concrete. I don't think it's any harder to keep clean than OSB! (grin) .... I'm not a great fan of sheets of glue with large wood chips as a binder. (hehehe)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Well, have I got a surprise for you! Currently residing front-and-center in my shop is a 9'x12' "Oriental" rug!! Came out of a house in Seattle years ago (bought at an auction) and wasn't nice enough to put in our shop to sell, so it laid around rolled up for 2 or 3 years. I finally put it down in the shop.
I find the rug pretty aggravating to clean when it has a bunch of sawdust on it. I've kept it primarily because I figure it must help, if only a little bit, with the chill factor during the wintertime. This particular rug doesn't provide all that much cushioning though. I have 2 or 3 rubber mats strategically placed (left over from the old retail store) and they're so much easier to run the shop vac over to suck up the sawdust.
My jointer and T-saw are both on mobile bases (of a sort), I rarely move either of them these days, but probably will need to more when I really get going on the building-stuff thing. When I get around to building a workbench I want it to roll if possible. And, I have a big firewood bin that's on casters (4.5' tall about, maybe 30" wide and 24" deep or more). As I've "matured" shall we say, I've grown more insistent on having only stuff I can move in my living and working spaces. If I can't move it around, out it goes! (Refrigerator exempt, LOL!)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/21/2002 12:19:51 AM ET by forest_girl
> ...a 9'x12' "Oriental" rug!!
First a lumber rack fabricated with Forstner bits, now an oriental rug as a floor mat. Man, if you're as organized and as much a neat-nik as Sarge you probably have dinner parties in your shop! (hahaha - just kidding)
Since I worked for that general contractor and since they did a lot of remodeling work for Microsoft, I had access to some pretty high-end commercial carpet. That stuff sweeps surprisingly clean of sawdust and especially large chip stuff like what shavings off the lathe. It's only the smallish dust type stuff that gets worked down into the nap of the rug. And since I don't have it there for wiping such stuff off my shoes as for comfort, the shop vac does a good enough job sucking that stuff up.
I've had several different kinds of scrap carpet over the years as floor mats. When they get to the point even *I* can't stand them, I simply chuck 'em and get something new. The best, so far as cleaning goes, is a short pile thightly woven level loop. I use a good push broom and get almost everything up. It's not as easy as sweeping a nice varnished oak floor, of course, but .... workable.
I'm glad this thread surfaced, though, since I hadn't thought of the sleeper/plywood thing for my future shop up north. I still think I'll go in-floor radiant heat with concrete slab, though.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
It would be quite easy to install in floor radiant heating under a plywood floor on sleepers, either hot water, using a standard hot water heater, gas or electric, or there are new electrical heat tape types made to lay under hardwood floors in residences.
In fact, I'm going to add that to my wish list. What a great way to keep the shop warm overnight so that glue and finishes will dry as they should. Just turn the thermostat down a bit to whatever seems right. It couldn't be any more expensive than any other method of heating the shop that I can think of.
There's even a neat outdoor oil/wood fired water heater made for just this kind of application. I saw it a few years ago at a home improvement show, but I can't remember the name. I'll try a google look up a bit later.
> ...It would be quite easy to install in floor radiant heating under a plywood floor on sleepers,...
True. But in my case, I have a very real moisture problem to deal with. I'm leary of creating dead air spaces where condensation might become an issue.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis, with a radient heat source in the space, moisture will be much less of a problem, not more. Especially with winter usage, the heat will tend to keep the space dry. Even in warm weather, a very low level of heat in the under floor space will keep it dryer than the ambient.
The concrete slab becomes a thermal mass, absorbing and retaining some of the heat, therefore it will no longer be a cool surface for condensation to occur upon.
Additionally, if you seal the concrete surface before laying the sleepers, ground seepage coming in through through the floor will be stopped, or greatly reduced.
You probably won't want to turn the system off during winter weather, but you can moderate the heat level when the shop is not in use to reduce energy costs.
I suggest going to the following website for further information:
http://www.radiantcompany.com/
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis! I want you to stop perpetuating that nasty rumor that I used Forstner bits for my lumber rack, LOL! And, just to set the record straight, I'm a neat-not! not a neat-nik!
Wow, you're gonna design a shop from scratch, huh? That's gotta be fun! Lee's points about heat vis a vis moisture are interesting, yes?
Went to Rockler today and got one of those link-belts for the tablesaw, and cool blocks for the bandsaw. Gives me somethin' to do tonight while I'm listenin' to Da Blues! Yes, it's a blues night, after a great retail day, my favorite kind.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
stop perpetuating that nasty rumor
Ok, ok, ok..... Just kidding (bsg)
I'd like to hear how you like the performance of the link belt once you've had a chance to use it a little.
AFA the radiant heat-under-sleeper thing, I have other reasons for prefering a concrete floor, too. The moisture migration (water vapor migrating from the warmer side to the cooler side due to vapor pressure) isn't the main consideration. The shop area is at the base of a rather long private drive from the main road above the property. Most of the run-off from this road comes down onto my property and right now runs across the site where the shop is intended to live. I'll have to deal with surface water, for sure. But that begs the question of sub-surface water conditions. If I end up having any problems with seepage, I don't want to have to rip up an entire furred floor to fix 'em.
Lotsa dampproofing, rock drainage and drain tile will most likely solve all these problems. But it just goes contrary to my intuition to put wood on concrete like that. Had too many failures in the past.
Hey -
I forgot to thank you for the heads up on the WW show.
Thanks.
We'll get more organized as the date approaches.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Lert
I use the inter-locking mats from HD in all the areas around my machines and work-benches. They're in-expensive and easy to install. I don't know if you have to roll tools around on casters, etc. They might not work in that case. They are very easy to vacuum. Much easier that my concrete floor. I take an electric leaf-blower every 4 hours or so and open the shop doors. Just start in back and blow all the sawdust out in about 2 minutes. If you have to move tools, these things are extremely light. You can remove or just carry sections of them with ease. Need washing, take them out the door and shoot them with a garden hose.
Bottom line: Easy to move around, easy to clean and easy to install. Easy on the pocket-book and they are easy on the legs and back.. Hope info will help you in making an easy decision. Grin<>
sarge..jt
I just recently tried using my heavy duty electric leaf blower in my shop for the first time. I love it!
It even gets those under the machine places that the broom just won't reach. It's so much easier than the broom. Just be careful about blowing directly into a corner. It comes right back at you. And wear safety glasses for sure, the kind with the side curtains.
Lee
You'e right about the blow-back and goggles. I am fortunate that I can open the door between the shop and basement and am able to start from a step inside there. I have designed shop so assembly tables and low saw-dust producing machines are in the rear. My gas space heater is in the rear also. I put all the saw-dust makers forward toward garage doors to try to contain the area of heavy clean-up and keep saw-dust away from the heater. My dust collection system is pretty good and have minumum trouble with saw-dust. Been using that blower for years. I do give the shop a good cleaning once a week. Well, at least my 16 year old son does ( if he wants date money, he..he.. ) I told him that all WW apprentices clean shop for at least 4 years B-4 they're allowed to touch a tool. I think he's on to me. I know his mom is. Grin<>
sarge..jt
I have a 16 year old myself, the last still in the nest. Unfortunately, he shows no interest at all in learning woodworking.
Tobin got his GED last June so he's out of school for now. He's planning to start college at OSU, majoring in graphic arts, in fall 2003, feeling that he was not yet ready this fall.
He's been looking for work, but not having much success here in rural southern Oregon, so he might go up to Corvallis early and live at his mother's (she works at OSU) to look for work.
Speaking of dust . . . what's your take on the planer in terms of how much dust it produces (vs. shavings). When I use my little Delta, it just doesn't seem like it really produces all that much dust, mostly shavings. But then again, they say the dust that hurts you the most is the stuff you don't see. Hmmmm, whadya think?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
The nature of planers is such that they produce mostly shavings and very little dust. There are dust collector hoods that are designed to hang just over the outfeed to vacuum up the considerable refuse and they are useful, but probably not essential. On the other hand, I've had planer shavings hanging around in odd corners of the shop from 8-9 years ago that I just now blew out by reverting to my electric leaf blower.
My own dust collection is pretty minimal right now, just a small shop vac, but I expect to step up in the near future. My shop is currently pretty much open air, at least until real winter sets in, so it's not much of a problem. I had a lot more trouble with smoke from the nearby forest fire this summer than I had with wood dust. The Biscuit Fire burned just under 500,000 acres - it was the biggest fire in Oregon in over 100 years and it was just a hop, skip, and a jump (about 3 miles) away.
I think I read awhile back that you're located in the Puget Sound area. It seems that we're at least in the same time zone. I love Puget Sound, having traveled there many times on business back in my ratrace lifetime.
I used to fly into Sea-Tac from SFO on the first United West Coaster flight of the day and have breakfast on the ferry over to Bremerton. When I finally escaped the big city, the only thing keeping me from settling in Washington state was the sales tax. Having grown up around the SF Bay, I really miss the water.
sales tax high... yeah, but there is no state income tax.
Yep, high ST but no IT. Extremely regressive and stupid, IMO. We really pay for that arrangement when there's a recession like there is now, and low-income people get shafted 365 days a year. I paid income tax in California for 20 years, and it really didn't seem like a very big deal at all. Well! Now that vent is over.
It is beautiful up here, but in OR also. Hope the winter is a mild one!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Farmer's Almanac seems to believe otherwise. They say it will be an unusually hard winter. They use very modern methods these days, too, not just feelings in the bones. Solar output curves, ocean temperatures and circulations, historical records, and very much more. We shall see. We shall see.
Yes, Oregon has much beauty also. Every day I marvel that I live, actually live, in a place that the flatlanders (big city folk) pay good money to visit on their pitifully short vacations. But I do miss the water.
Unfortunately, some of it was severly damaged this summer, by the largest forest fire Oregon has seen in 100 years, the Biscuit fire. It came to within 3-5 miles of the Redwood Highway. On the bright side, it will regenerate over the years, and for the near term, that area likely won't burn drastically again for several decades.
stop perpetuating that nasty rumor
If you're not seeing any dust (fine dust) you're not looking hard enough! (hehehe)
Certainly it's not as much as your belt sander produces but with mine (Dewalt) there's some minor (depending on the type of wood and depth of cut) dust. Same arguement could be made for the jointer since it's basically the same type of machine. At least cutting operation.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
re: link belts -- Yesterday, I made an open cabinet, 3/4" ply, to hold paint cans. 2' x 4' x 5", 3 shelves, top bottom, sides, yadda yadda. I love the link belt!!! My saw has a completely different personality now:
Doesn't jerk at start-up (cross-cut stock is easier to hold against the miter gauge)
Doesn't vibrate like crazy toward the end of run-down
Much, much quieter!! I suspect vibration is less during the main part of the run, which keeps the blade quieter.
The drill press is the next victim. It's a smallish Delta benchtop model, and I suspect the link belt will improve the power efficiency and yield fewer time where the belt slips. Who knows, I might decide to make another gold-plated, designer lumber-rack, LOL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sarge, are those the brightly colored ones? Or do they have something more subdued. Actually, the last time I was at HD, I looked for the interlocking mats and didn't see them. Since I really wasn't ready to spend the money, I didn't ask though. Perhaps I will next time.
I hope you guys are wearing masks when you do the blower-thing. Sounds like alot of fine dust to me! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Lert
I saw those romper-room ones after they ran out of the deep grays. Whew! I needed more and HD computer located some another store 8 miles away. Bought spares as the shop cat uses them to sharpen claws. ha.. Yep, wear goggles and a dust mask. Who was that masked man!?
I just posted a thread general discussion. My T/S is Junk. Need all the help I can get identifing my new used T/S. It's unusual in certain respects. Know you keep up with all these tool reviews. Maybe you can tell me what I've got!
sarge..jt
If you want to distract your cat, take a piece of masonite and place it, rough side up, where s/he like to scratch. Odds are good it will appeal to the feline at least as much as the mats!! About 18" square works for mine. She's got 10 razor-sharp weapons on her cute mitts! (Big cat, big mitts! Saw her catch a fly in mid-air with one paw last week!)
You're gonna hate this, but I really couldn't see the saw very well in your pic :-(
Not that I'd know anyway, but someone out there will!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forest Girl: in post 51 you state I only have cracks where there supose to be the wooden strip ( what ever thats called)>>> its called a expansion joint
Soo you going to sell & move or you going to tile over the concrete huh huh LOL... Take Care : Jamie
Happy Woodworking.... ToolDoc
He Who Dies With The Most Tools Wins.....
Pergo all the way, Not! Hah!
She who has the most tools.... Oops, better not go there, don't want to start a war. Seeing that sentence at the end of your most brought an image to mind:
When I cash out, so to speak, how 'bout if they strap me to the Jet jointer bed, put some floats on it, and cruise me down a nice peaceful river somewhere?! Wouldn't that be cool! You guys can all throw flowers as I go by, off to the great Pacific ocean. Too funny. (Didn't get enough sleep last night, sorry, getting goofy.)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie: I think most of us guys just might be a tad older than you Hun , soo it might well be that your going to be throwing flowers at us..But if you go first we sure will see that you have a nice send off, wont be a dry eye in the crowd...
ToolDoc...
Those Who die with The Most tools wins....
She who has the most tools....
Regardless, HE or SHE, is dead, non the less. (grin)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Lert
He pretty much confines it to a single mat over by the new mortiser.. Thats why I bought extra while I could get them.
No promlem on the saw picture. I've never seen one like it. Sure wish I knew what it is though. Maybe a deep voice from behind a burning bush will reveal..ha..
sarge..jt
Forest Girl,
I did this project last winter for my basement shop. (Old Victorian house. Concrete was added later and spread with a broom! Varied in thickness from 0" where there was just dirt, to 4" where the cistern was.) Looking back, I too think this one is best lift to the pros. Sand mix does level out very nicely, but is difficult to cure. If it's too thin in consistency, it cracks; if it dries too quickly, (which it's prone to do since it's not very thick) you get a surface that gets chalky and may even flake.
Whatever you do, stay away from products described as "self leveling". They don't work.
There are companies that come in and resurface, but they're very expensive. Your best bet is to hire a good mason to do the job.
Jeff
Edited 9/20/2002 8:14:42 AM ET by Jeff K
Jeff,
I have a 93+ year old house that looks like about 60 years ago they dug out the basement (was a low cellar) and just poured concrete there without any thought of leveling. The surface is undulating to say the least. I was thinking of having it broken up and re-poured. Since you sound like you did something like this, am I looking at an expensive proposition?
It would be nice to have a level surface for my tools as I might upgrade to a better table saw.
Thanks.
Michael
Edited 9/20/2002 10:45:58 AM ET by BADOYN
Michael,
It's really not very expensive if you do it yourself - just a lot of work. Because there really wasn't a way I could get everything out of the basement, I did it in sections about 8' long. Some places the concrete was quite thick already, so I just leveled those ares off, but in others I busted the old stuff out (and removed the old planking under it!) and re-poured.
Because I was only doing small sections, I mixed it all myself. Like I said, it was a lot of work but it saved a lot of money. (I used to think having a strong back was as good as having a fat wallet, perhaps even superior in some moral sense. I'm beginning to have second thoughts about all that...)
If you have enough room overhead, you're probably better off just to put a floor over it. It's easier on the feet and tools, as mentioned above, and easier on your poor aching back.
Jeff
Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll have to do a bit more investigating about this.
Michael
Here's what you can do to keep the cost down:
1) break out the old concrete yourself, and by 'yourself' I mean hire a couple of day laborers to help. Rent an electric jackhammer at your local rental yard. Haul the material away to the landfill yourself (landfills love clean concrete fill, the disposal rate is not that high, much cheaper than a debris box). Total cost for the typical 2 car garage, $400 plus/minus. Time required, about a day.
2) lay in your baserock and rebar, although for a basement I think a wire mesh would be adequate. Take your time to check the elevations and layout any conduit, etc. you may want to use in the future... drain line? Cost: whatever baserock goes for in your area. Time, probably a day, maybe two.
3) Hire yourself some professional concrete finishers. Call up a local concrete pump company and inquire about their rates, while you have them on the phone ask them for a reference to a finisher, and by all means give the pump guy the work if you need to have the concrete pumped in... even if his rate is a 'little' higher. Cost for 2 finishers doing a side job like this: probably around $500
4) ask the finishers to schedule your concrete, but first calculate your cubic yardage requirement. Cost for concrete: $60-70 a yard... but if varies in local areas. Same with the pump.
hope that helps.
Wow. Thanks for the input.
My wife's cousin works for a road construction firm and he can get a jackhammer and dump truck. He helped me jack up some old sidewalk and patio at my previous house when I built a new patio.
My concerns are the drain lines beneath the slab, making sure the house support columns stay stable (they are 12" square wood beams), and making sure the slope of the floor is correct to the drain.
Thanks again,
Michael
yes, those are good things to be concerned about. The drain lines should not be a problem, you probably know roughly where they are, and in any case, they should be well enough below the slab not to hit them... of course, with a 93 year old house, you never know.
On the house supports, this might be a good opportunity to have an engineer take a look to see if anything can be done while you have the slab out to introduce modern engineering and materials for the good of the house. I don't know where you live, but in my area, we take every opportunity possible look at seismic retrofitting.
Edited 9/22/2002 1:54:39 AM ET by JEFFN7
Forest Girl,
I really enjoy all your posts and web knowledge. This year, I've converted a 20 x 30' outbuilding into my shop. It had a very rough cement floor that sloped, sort of, to a central drain. With only 8 foot ceilings, I was concerned about losing any more height but made the decision to put down sleepers and OSB flooring. While I've lost 4 inches in height, I've picked up a floor that is much easier on my back and knees and much more forgiving to any dropped hand tools. (The first chisel that fell to the floor business edge down was worth the time and materials alone! You know that the odds of the cutting edge hitting the floor are directly proportional to the length of time spent getting the edge perfect.) As far as the lower ceiling, it hasn't been an issue yet. I am in the process of building a queen size, contemporary bed for a client and it's close but workable.
Bottom line is my recommendation is for a wood floor. It's also much easier to clean.
Kell
capping concrete is usually a risky business. To find the best thoughts post it over in breaktime.
With heavvy machinery that vibrates capping will usually flake. Describe the roughness. A simple hardcore cleaning and applying a few coats of that epoxy garage paint might smooth it up if it were just a broom finish. But if its bad, cover the slab with some sand, slap a vapor barrier down, and pour a thick (2inch) pad on top. Id say use a wood trowel finish, it still leaves a bit of traction whereas a steel troweled finish is rather slippery.
Bill, I'm going to assume your post was meant for me <g>. I'd forgotten about the epoxy paint. That might be a possibility. Will have to get a more precise picture of the roughness of the floor -- it was textured with something -- and will check into it. I won't bother the folks at BT -- enough info has been posted here to discourage me from the cement-capping idea. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
it was probably textured with a broom. if still too wet and the cream was rising to the surface its probably more bumpy then sandy. Thicker paint might be able to fill some of the voids. And a painted floor will sweep easier and not get caked up saw dust as easy as texutred floors. You could always try a corner of the shop with the paint idea. If youre garage wasnt vapor barriered you might have to seal it first with a concrete sealer.
Hi Kell, nice to meetcha! I'll keep that chisel-edge mortality formula in mind, ouch!
OSB is appealing -- certainly less expensive than plywood. What thickness did you use? Have you covered it with anything? Do you roll machinery around on it much? I have my jointer and tablesaw on mobile bases and move them when clearance needs demand it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey FG,
I used 3/4 inch and haven't put anything on it yet. I plan to paint it after I finish off the inside of the building with insulation and beadboard. My plan is to paint the walls white and the floor kind of a battleship grey.
I have a Shopsmith MarkV and a large assembly table on wheels that I roll around quite a bit and it's no problem. The rest of my stuff is not mobile.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Kell
I put a new slab in the garage when we moved into our house last year, which I use as my workshop. Having a good floor is key, and I would have replaced the concrete at any rate because the old floor was unusable, even as a garage.
My only regret is that I didn't take the time then to install a raised plywood floor at the same time, here's why:
- a plywood floor is more comfortable to work on
- wood doesn't get so cold in the winter, nor does it wick moisture (not really a problem in the bay area, where I live, because we don't have high humidity)
- I could run power/air/dc under the raised floor
- I could level a raised floor. My concrete slab has fall in it and while this isn't much of an issue most of the time, it's something I always have to be aware of.
- it would be easy to do... lay down a vapor barrier, build a frame out of 2x4's and screw down some plywood. The resulting height change would be manageable, 1.5" for the 2x and 3/4" for a combined 2 1/4" difference from where I am now.
- it would look cool, and I could bury cash in the floor just like Tony Soprano.
I received an email from you, referencing this thread, but no message was in it! Can you post again?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi foret girl
Just about every hardwood floor job I do, I first put down 5/8 CDX plywood over real cheep vinyl flooring. If I don’t want it real hard I don’t glue it just nail it. 5 nails across 10 down is best. You can rent a air powerd nail gun from hardwood flooring wholesaler.
Jeffin so cal
Forest Girl: I still think my idea of selling the place and starting over was the best advise soo far... Well anyways how about renting a concrete floor grinder and knocking off the roughness.. or have you ever given thought to a tile floorover the concrete..
Take Care...... ToolDoc
Hi Doc, believe me if I could I would, and not just to free myself from the concrete floor! A tiny house on a too-big piece of land for me, since my sig-o's working out-of-state and isn't around much to help with the "landscaping" (read: trying to keep the Great Northwest from taking over the property completely). Drives me nuts. Wish I could double the size of the house, and reduce the property to 1/3 the size it is.
However! Neighbors are pleasantly far away, so better not complain. Love the birds, flying squirrels and deer, even the spiders most of the time. And the voles keep my kitty occupied when she's out hunting.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
If the floor is basically level then you might look at using second-hand industrial conveyor belting. Pretty commonly available around 4' wide & in various thicknesses, quick to lay & easy on the feet.
Don
Jamie: 3 acres to take care of, Hmm want to swap ? I only have a few myself 10, LOL, it sure does get to be a pain in the butt, but I wouldnt part with it for any amount of money, Im like you love to enjoy nature at its best....My 2 cats love watching the birdies and chippys, squirrels roamping around, I dont let them out cause my wife keeps reminding me that there house cats...Hey Fall is right around the corner.. cant wait its sooo nice here then.....
Take Care..Forest Girl..Have a Nice Weekend..... ToolDoc
Well, FG, I'm going to join the chorus....I have a 28X36 garage that still needs to hold two cars, but I wanted a wooden floor (easy
Well, FG, I'm going to join the chorus....I have a 28X36 garage that still needs to hold two cars, but I wanted a wooden floor....soooo I used the sleeper and plywood method and built-up the area where the two cars went. I then covered the car area with "gorilla mats" (a rubber weight-lifting mat). This way, I have a wooden floor and a rubber mat where the cars go....It is all even, so I can roll tools around as needed.
I top-coated the wood floor with a two-part epoxy paint--which I would whole heartedly recommend. It makes the floor bullet and water proof.
The advanteges to the wooden floor are:
Hope this helps
Hi Pnut, excellent information here. I'm especially interested in the Gorilla mats, as my first idea was to simply cover the floor (especially where I walk and stand the most) with rubber mats, but the one's that are available at the big box stores are not very conducive to rolling tools around. Where might I find the mats you're using?? How thick are they?
Wait a minute...maybe I read your post incorrectly...are the rubber mats only where the cars go? Hmmmmm.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ever thought about gluing down rubber backed indoor/outdoor carpet. A flea market upright vaccum cleaner is all you need to keep it clean. A DC will also dramatically cut your shop cleanup time.
Another alternative would be a floating wood floor but at 4-6 bucks a square foot it can be rather expensive for a shop. Still though, it is extremely durable and can be installed on concrete. You may need to smooth/float it with a surfacing compound first. As an added benift, if you move, you can take it with you.
I glanced at the I/O carpet at Home Depot the last time I was there, but was protecting my pocketbook by not focusing too closely! A cyber-acquaintance over on Vashon Island suggested via email some interlocking rubber mats that have been sold at Costco in the past, at a very reasonable price! I'm going to check those out, if they still have them.
There are some carpet remnant places around. I'll have to take a look and see what the I/O sells for.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Per your previous request, Gorilla Mats (made for weight lifting) can be found at: http://www.summitflex.com/weightgorilla.html These mats are tough as nails, hard, and you can roll heavy equiptment around on them. They are, however, quite expensive. Personally, I wouldn't bother with those "toy mats" from HD. I don't think they would hold up....Good luck.
Thanks PNUT, 'preciate it!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Omega building products (here in socal) makes an acrylic overlay for cement surfaces which is durable- appears to be easy to work with, many colors and textures.
Other company's make self leveling coatings as well, epoxy, etc.
You can get a contractor to come in & level it out but this can get pricy, I've seen some jobs run over $25 sq ft.
Hope this helps.
Levelling concrete for floors, or laying wood floors over a concrete base.
Don't try and add a layer of sand/cement or concrete less than 2" thick as you invite trouble with de-lamination, curling and cracking if you do.
Self-levelling compound will give you a smooth surface, albeit not as hard as concrete.The best self-levelling compound is made by Mapei, it levels better and is harder than its competitors.
To do the job, mix it in a 5 gal. bucket which will just hold one bag plus water and use a paddle in an electric drill. Have two people mixing and pouring at the same time -- one person can't mix and pour quick enough to get one batch to flow seamlessly into the previous batch. The concrete must be clean and primed with a mixture of half a pint of white glue to 2 gallon water as a bonding agent and the self-levelling compound should be mixed with the same glue/water.
Personally I would put down a plywood floor, in the same way that I'd put down a sub-floor for parquet or strip flooring over concrete.
I'd use 3/4" ply and fix it to the concrete by drilling and using tapcons -- about 40 to a sheet. The 3/4" ply will be rigid enough to span undulations in the concrete surface.
If the concrete is at all subject to damp, take the opportunity to paint it with a bitumen emulsion before fixing the ply and that will act as a damp-proof membrane.
Here is a strip floor laid on ply over concrete that was fixed in precisely this manner (there were many more!)
View Image
Ian -- beautiful floor, and excellent info for my file! Thanks for contributing. We may at some point have another concrete project, so all of this info is grist for the mill.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Although I have no experience with it, I have seen concrete grinders used to smooth out rough, unevenly poured concrete slabs. They look like floor sanders. I don't know how expensive, or difficult, I've just seen them used.
You can have it ground smooth. Try a terrazzo company. They wet grind terrazzo (concrete) to a polished surface. A little messy but better that trying to get a thin top coat to remain adhered. You might also try a concrete installer. They sometimes screw up and have to have the slab ground smooth. Might give you some contacts.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled