Boy am I having a challnge smooth paling a table top of curly maple!!!
I am using a lie nielsen 4 1/2 smoothing plane and the blade was recvently sharpened down to polishing 8000 grit water stone. There is a secodnary beele too it too
Despite my best attempts at adjusting I still get tear out patchs. I changed planing direction and tried the smallest depth of cut. Any suggestions?
I know this si the most difficut wood to palne. I know I sharpeend the iron ver yvery well, cause it cuts like butte rin large nice ribbons on cherry, poplar etfc but gee whix this curly maple top is a challenge!
Funny because my delta 13 1/2 planer does a very very nice job on it when I was milling it.
Replies
Spitfire,
Very difficult wood to plane. Have you tried using a cabinet scraper or a scraper plane? Or, horrors, sanding?
Rich
Have you tried closing the throat?
You will need to use a low-angle plane if you want to plane this table-top. The 4 1/2 won't help you very much. You can probably get away with just a card scraper. Scrapping and the figured/curly woods works really well.
Dark Magneto
I think you have that mixed up with high angle.
No...if you use a "low angle" smoothing plane the angle of the blade is around 12 degrees. However the blade is set in bevel side up so the angle is the even higher. I guess if you were to think about the actual blade angle it is "low" but then the real calculated angle is high. Here is a "low angle" smoothing plane.
Cheers!
View Image
I have one of thos LN smoothing plans. Works great on any highly figured wood. pricey but a real jewelWicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
He would want to use a high angled frog in his 4 1/2, typically called a York pitch, used for difficult grained woods.
I am very curious about the effectiveness of the Veritas low angle plane vs a scraper plane (Stanley #512). My tool of choice for curly wood is the scraper plane, but I've heard that a reverse bevel, low angle, or a York Pitch plane is the way to go. Can anyone offer the pros and cons of each?Tom
There's quite a bit of confusement going on in this thread about the angles of the cutting iron and the consequence of that angle. The important angle is the Cutting Angle. The smaller the Cutting Angle appears to the wood, the "sharper" the cutting wedge seems to be. Sharper edges slice through tissue that might be torn by "duller" edges.
Let's start with the standard smoothing plane, which is where the problem is occuring in the first place. In the standard plane, the bevel is down. The iron is in the plane so that the BACK of the iron leads the cutting. The acute angle between that surface and the wood is the Cutting Angle. In most smoothing planes the iron is bedded at about 45 degrees, so that is the cutting angle. If the iron is raised more to the vertical, (the cutting angle increases toward 90 degrees) as in York Angle planes, the tendancy of the iron to chatter may be reduced, making some highly figured woods easier to cut. If chattering is happening in this case, a York Angle plane may help, or it may not.
Scraper planes have their blades at or near vertical and in some cases even past vertical. But, despite that similarity to a high-angle plane, their cutting action is not the same. The Cutting Angle is actually very low because these blades cut with their burr. (more below) Assuming that because a scraper is the answer, that any plane with its blade at a higher angle is going to help is not the case.
A low angle plane is set with its bevel up. That is, the bevel leads the cut, not the back of the iron. The acute angle between that bevel and the wood is the Cutting Angle. The bevels of such planes are usually ground at a much smaller grinding angle than is a smoothing plane. The typical grinding angle for a smooth plane is 30 degrees or so. For the low angle plane, the iron can be ground at 20 degrees, a much sharper cutting wedge.
The back of the low angle plane iron must be raised up a few degrees from the surface of the wood (the bed angle or clearance angle, typically 10-12 degrees). So the cutting angle is the clearance angle plus the sharpening angle (10 to 12 +20 = 30 to 32) - much "sharper" appearing to the wood tissue than the smoothing plane's 45 degrees.
A scraper blade, whether hand-held or in a plane body has a sharp burr as the leading cutting edge. It is even "sharper" in its shape as a cutting wedge and in the angle that it presents to the wood than is a low angle plane. Making it the best tool to deal with figured wood. A scraper blade can actually remove fractions of a thousandth of an inch to level a film of finish. No other plane can do that.
Rich
Edited 1/10/2005 5:43 pm ET by Rich14
Rich that was very well stated, but the main factor that keeps the scraper from tearing out is the fact that the rolled bur acts a built in chip-breaker which causes the severed fibers to break away as soon as they are cut, rather than lifting and spliting as the grain turns against you.
Rootburl,
Thanks.
The action of chip breakers is a bit of a controversy. As is the "chip breaking" action of the burr of a cabinet scraper.
Many studies have shown that there is no real need for a chip breaker, and that in a properly-performing plane, of any design, the severed wood fibers break long before they meet the breaker.
Planes eveolved with chip breakers as a consequence of the need to increase the mass of the plane iron. Before modern metalurgy, it was very difficult, or too expensive to produce a thick iron with all the necessary attributes that the metal needed to perform well. So planes were fitted with double irons, increasing the mass which reduced chatter and aided in holding the iron firmly.
The second iron was set back from the leading edge of the cutting iron and evolved into the design so prevalent now. But in order to enter the mouth of the plane, the fibers must break a few thousandths after they are severed and long before they contact the chip breaker
But planes were made with single thick irons long ago and today. With a very narrow mouth and the plane tuned correctly, the severed fibers curl right up into he throat, the entire length of the cut. No chip breaker working, thanks.
My wooden-body hand planes are made with thick Hock irons. No breakers. They have never needed them. Likewise, I understand the chip-breaking action of a scraper and its microscopically-thin shaving to be simply a consequence of the upward movement of the just-severed shaving, not the result of bumping against a metal obstruction.
Rich
Thanks Rich,That was pretty much as I expected, in that, when you want a microfine shaving, a low angle plane, with a reversed bevel, is still no match for a well turned burr on a scraper plane,Since I use a scraper plane for curly wood, and low angle block plane for working the occasional end grain, what's the advantage of a low angle smoothng plane?Tom
As mentioned previously, I sometimes have good luck on curly/bird's eye maple with a L-N low angle jack plane. Sometimes the higher angles work better; sometimes the low angle works better. If it doesn't work out, use a card scraper.
By the way, maple being very hard is tough on blades. For a large tabletop some people will sharpen several times throughout the process.
Cheers
Kyle
Kyle,
How many irons do you have for your LN low angle Jack and what angles do you sharpen the iron and bevel at?
I only have one iron. I just sharpen it with the Scary Sharp method; free hand. I don't get caught up in bevel angles of the blade. I would guess its within a few degrees of whatever L-N originally had it.
Having said that. I know that some people do get multiple blades and put different bevels on them to get different (read: higher) angles. Its more fun to have more planes. <G>
Cheers
Kyle
Spitfire, never mind all the arguments going on about low angle, york and raised pitches, bevel down, bevel up, angle of attack, etc..
Your 4-1/2 Lie Nielsen, well sharpened, with a fine set mouth and a light cut should be able to plane fiddleback and/or curly maple or sycamore very well.
Try planing across the grain direction instead of with it. I'd be surprised if this, with a little practice on your part, doesn't work for you. Follow up with a scraper where needed. Slainte.
Wow, am I confused!!! I know I am not as knowledgeable as most here but I have Garrett's plane book, experimented with and practiced planing. seems to me I simply need to make adjustments in my lie -nielsen smoothing plane and modify my technique.
I also e-mailed Lie-Nielsen and Thomas responded. He suggested a plane with a high angle frog. But I dont have one.
Then, if setting your plane to the finest cut with the sharpest blade and the smallest mouth doesn't work (and it probably won't give you completely tear-proof results) get a cabinet scaper blade, a real burnisher and a flat file. Prepare the edge per any of the numerous descriptions that abound on the net or in sharpening books and start scraping. Tearout will be a thing of the past and you'll find yourself using the scraper so much you'll wonder how you used to get along without it. Oh, yeah. Don't forget sanding as a solution. But that's not supposed to get mentioned in a thread about planing, is it?Rich
Rich,
Thanks for your valuable and competent response. Seems to me I'll try the scraper option. I have some scrapers and a new burnisher. I'll practice establishing good burrs. I'll take quit a few practcie strokes on some maple.
I know this wood is difficult to work but gee whiz it sure is beautiful to look at when completed.
I still need to take a course. Maybe there's a place or school that offers a course in handplaning. Readiing Garrett Hacks book is great but when one is all alone and never has taken a class you just hope you are doing things properly. the best judge of course is the piece itself! say you near North Atteleboro MA and interested in teaching??
Spitfire,Good luck with the scraper. It's one of those tools that is actually so easy to use and gives you such immediate tactile feedback that you'll start getting the feel in minutes. The hardest part is filing the edge and forming the burr, and that's not hard at all.Once you get the knack you'll start looking for surfaces to scrape! Wait until the first time you level a film finish (properly cured lacquer, shellac or varnish). It's simply amazing that such a simple device can consistently and reliably remove thicknesses measured in ten-thousandths. Oh, and you'll get some pretty impressive thumb muscles, too!Rich
Well, you've heard it from the horses mouth and he's not the type to give advice so he can sell you a high-angle frog ($75 bucks by the way - cheap in my book for the added versatility).
Gnarly wood planes better with a York pitched plane and a tight mouth. That's why scrapers work so well on figured wood - the hook is essentially a high angled cutting edge.
If you can tune and use a scraper you have what you need already. If you plan to use this kind of wood often do yourself a favor and buy the high angle frog from L-N.
Trust me when I tell you that Garrett Hack does not get perfect results every time on figured wood using a regular Bailey or Bedrock smoothing plane. No way. I guarantee you that he uses a scraper to clean up a patch here and there.
Does the high angle frog fit on the 4 1/2 smoothing plane?
L-N makes a specific high angle frog for the 4 1/2.
Cheers
Kyle
Ok this realy isnt my eara, but Ide use a card scraper. but what Ive done in the past was to use water, light spray,to rase the grain, then scrape or plain very lightly.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
50% of my work is on HIGHLY figured woods, the worst of the worst. After carefully machining I make about 4 passes with a card scraper, not a scraper plane just a 6 dollar piece of steel. I always achive a perfect surface, no sanding necessary.
Good luck,
Mike
You're not going to do it with the L-N unless *perhaps* you have their high angle frog installed.
I'd get it as close as you can and then scrape the hopefully few torn out patches.
You could also try a back bevel on your smoother iron.
This in no way should be taken as an endorsement of Delta portable planners. I owned two of the things and they are a really flimsy piece of ship, er T ...;<)
But!!! their high speed is the perfect way to plane highly figured wood without tearout.. Use really sharp fresh new blades with a feather lite cut and slow feed speed and you'll be amazed by the fine results!
Now I know that all of those bench top units have similar high speeds and I don't believe that only Delta knows how to sharpen a blade so I'd buy whatever brand trips your trigger..
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