Hello People – I have some very nice butternut boards that I cut from a fallen tree in my yard. The grain in them goes every way but straight. I have an old <!—-><!—-><!—->Stanley <!—-><!—-> # 28 wood-body plane that does a nice job on straight grain wood but this stuff is a problem. So I have been looking to purchase a smoothing plane and have looked at both the Lie-Nielsen #4-!/2 smoothing plane and the Veritas #4-1/2 smoothing plane. The LN is $300. and the Veritas is $195.
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Which do you people feel would be the wisest purchase. I’m new to wood working and even newer to hand tools. Found that I prefer to work with hand tools. They make a lot less noise. It’s easier on my old ears.
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Thanks
Replies
Bill.... I doubt there's been a better time for selecting a good smoother, loadsa fine examples available now. Which plane to recommend depends entirely on how wild you like your grain, and how smooth you want it to be...
To narrow the options... I've found that really wild grain is best tamed with a high angle blade... York pitch... My smoother of choice is the Lie Nielsen #4 1/2. That said.. in situations when even the #4 1/2 is struggling, I'll swap the frog over into my #5 1/2; the extra mass of the #5 1/2 gives you that extra bit of control and authority in the cut...
Form what I've heard, the Lee Valley bevel up panel plane is really competent too... Using it, you reach york pitch by changing the angle you hone the blade at to a much steeper angle...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I 2nd the LN 4 1/2 Yorkie. I love mine, and it will handle tough grain without a problem. I have not tried Veritas, but I've heard good things about them.
Jeff
Edited 1/5/2006 10:12 am ET by JeffHeath
The best plane I have for smoothing wild grain is my Clark & Williams wooden smoother with a very tight mouth and York pitch.
Short of a new plane, tuning the plane is very helpful. A very flat sole, especially right up to the mouth, and moving the frog forward to tighten the mouth of any plane is desirable. Making sure the blade is VERY sharp is necessary. For that matter, replacing the stock Stanley blade with one from Hock, Lie-Nielsen, or Lee Valley can also help.
I've heard that the Clark and Williams planes are all the rage. I do not like woodies. I bought I Knight purpleheart razee jointer 2 years ago, and never use it. I can't get it set right, and when I do, a little moisture in the shop, and it's all outta whack again. It'll be for sale very soon. Nice craftsmanship on Knight's part, though. It is beautiful.
I'll stick with the bedrocks, myself. My 603, 604, and 604 1/2 were all rescued by me from the pound. Wow, were they an unsightly rusty bunch when I got them. Now, they're great, but I definately could have spent the time doing something else. Still, they perform just a hair worse than my LN 4 (bronze) and my LN 4 1/2 yorkie, which has quickly become my favorite. On large projects, I get all five of them out, and get at it. That way, I can work a long time without having to stop to sharpen.
A smoother without a tight mouth is nothing more than a scrub, IMHO.
One of these days, I'm going to break my piggie bank, and buy a Holtey. They're beautiful, and I really just want to know what the $3k difference is between one and my yorkie. LOL
Jeff
There is a learning curve to using woodies for sure.
This past summer I bought a Clark & Williams coffin smoother. At first it was pretty frustrating getting it set correctly, but in using it for several months now I have developed techniques for getting it set and I am impressed with the results, particularly on cantankerous woods .
Not to mention that it is a real thing of beauty!
But if you don't want to go that route, you certainly can't go wrong with the LNs (I don't know about the LVs myself). I've got a No. 4 LN smoother, and for general work on polite grain it works beautifully.
I don't want to insight any riots but I have my Grandfather's Sargent smoother with a Hock blade, which still leaves a pretty open mouth and in all honesty I do not notice a big difference in the smoothness of cut, when cutting with the grain, as compared to the LN. This accounts for 80% of the work I do.
Of course, I don't mind owning 3 of everything- I have three sons- so each will get a set of tools to sell on Ebay for beer money when I'm gone.
David C
I don't want to insight any riots but I have my Grandfather's Sargent smoother with a Hock blade, which still leaves a pretty open mouth and in all honesty I do not notice a big difference in the smoothness of cut, when cutting with the grain, as compared to the LN.
David... I'm not trying to rock the boat saying this, but I was dealing with straight grained oak with my new Stanley #5 with the stock blade and getting passable results... my point being that straight grain is hardly a test for a decent smoother...
For me, the eureka moment came when working an elm board; it had beautiful figure... a series of burrs through the board had the grain running in oval contours, laid down like a stack of dinner plates... looked awesome but it was a bear to plane... the circular nature of the grain meant the Stanley would make a partial cut with the grain, but as soon as the grain switched direction the plane would stop dead, tear out or pulverize my hands with chatter.. Tuning the plane hadn't made a significant difference, so I bought my first L-N...
At a stroke, straight outa the box this thing took no prisoners... I still hadn't a clue what I was doing technique wise (I dare say nothing's changed over the years)... but simply working with a tool equipped with a blade that was thick enough not to chatter, steel hard enough to retain its edge, a mouth that could be set fine enough to eliminate tear out... talk about a revelation... Suffice to say I haven't looked back...
That first venture into L-N's product line cost me months of soul searching... will it make a difference?? Will it enable me to learn?? Will I notice the difference in the quality of the boards?? In every aspect, each answer came back with a definite YES.!!!! Every time I work a board with some figure, that decision to commit to a quality tool pays dividends... There's no head scratching, no trick technique... just hone the blade, pick up the plane and get on with it...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I agree wholeheartedly!
I have a Clark & Williams smoother with a mouth tight enough that air molecules need to turn sideways to pass. It is just the thing for evil, curly grain. I bought it because I had some drawer fronts to make out of figured walnut, they came out very well.
I have a LN No. 4 that I use regularly for most everything else. It's adjusted so that the opening is a chubby 1/32-inch (1 mm to those inclined that way). The Sargent I just recently restored, and found to my surprise that with straight-grained wood, it worked as well as the LN plane, despite the Sargent's gaping maw. Nearly triple the LN!
I don't argue that tight-lipped smoothers aren't good for fussy grain, they are! I just think that for the bulk of the work that I do, the very tight mouth is not strictly necessary.
I hear everybody touting their fine mouths and whisper-thin shavings and while there is a place for that, for most work (I dare say) it isn't so very important. IMHO of course.
Cheers!
David C.
....I hear everybody touting their tight mouths, whispy curlies etcetc"
David, you must take a medal, now.
I also think that this aspect in a plane is over rated. A reasonable gap, yes, but one that will only allow translucent whispy curlies??? It will be a pet, just a pet. One of the more notable proponents of a raelistic gap is Karl Holtey, whose web site I only recently studied.
However, having said that, I am developing my plane -making, and will produce a smoother with an adjustable mouth, as the customer is always right....The same attitude as I suspect certain other plane makers, both mass producers and bespoke, have adopted. But it need not be complicated or gimmicky either.
Expect to hear and see more in due course.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I think that adjustable mouths are a great idea. I have an old Record block plane, I don't recall the model, but it's similar to the Stanley 60-1/2 I think. It has an easy mouth adjustment that I use far more often than I adjust the frog on any of my bench planes.
I suppose the challenge is to keep the adjusting mechanism smooth-acting while still maintaining reasonable sole flatness- another Holy Grail item that people go way overboard on IMHO.
Here where I am (Connecticut) we have a woodworker's club that is associated with the local Woodcraft store, each year they host a contest to see who can take the thinnest full width, full length shaving. Some local supplier donates a clear, straight-grained pine board, a representative from the Starrett Co. comes to judge (presumably because he can work a micrometer) and a bunch of folks come with their LN's and Bedrocks and have at it. They have a separate category for Asian style planes, but this year nobody entered any.
The winning shavings are all in the .0008-inch to .001 range. The winners receive a nice tool and bragging rights for a year.
As soon as they have a contest to see how fast a person can accurately take a rough-cut board and dress it flat to dimension, shoot it and smooth it, with a combination of planes, then I'll enter. It seems to me to be a more practical test.
Good luck with the planemaking endeavor, I think I have seen some of your work posted? Beautiful! I had made a couple of crude woodies for specific needs before I discovered Larry Williams and decided to give up plane making. Now I am on the way to buy enough planes so that he can buy a nice car.
Cheers!
David C
I also think that this aspect in a plane is over rated. A reasonable gap, yes, but one that will only allow translucent whispy curlies??? It will be a pet, just a pet.
Phillip.... ma loon... I beg t differ.. There's a reasons why I keep my smoother permanently set fine... I'll grant you... its not every application that warrants a fine mouth.. My scrub has a mouth that'd put a mother-in-law to shame...for a reason... 80 thou shavings aren't exactly subtle.. Likewise with my course jack.. refining the shape of a board isn't a tassk to be done 1 thou at a time.. My jointer I tend to keep set around the 4-6 thou mark because at this stage I don't want to be creating tear out, and if I've done the job properly with the course and fine jacks I should be pretty close to taking full length shavings, so I want to cut the effort required to a necessary minimum...
My smoother on the other hand is my go-to plane for dealing with tear out... It needs to be set fine for that very reason, the grain having demonstrated that its particularly fragile in that region... Additionally, by the time I'm through with the #7, the board should be within a few though of final thickness... I don't want to be hogging off great thick shavings... been there, done that already with the scrub and jack planes... When finish smoothing I'm looking t take an even, full width shaving off with each stroke, a shaving fine enough to impart zero stress on the grain irrespective of its fragility or orientation... for that reason I need to sheer the shaving as cleanly as possible while giving it maximum support.. Only thing I've found capable of doing that (aside from a scraper) is a fine set mouth...
By the time I'm through with the smoother, that's it... job's done... no scraping, no sanding... nothing... the board's ready for finish as is...
As for other occasions... there's been times when I've re-tuned my #62, #5 1/2 and #7 and #9 to take whispy thin shavings as and when the task at hand warranted it, but when the task's done, they're tuned back to their original state... All it takes is a couple of twiddles on some screws or a twist of the fore grip... its nae rocket science ;)
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Aye laddae, aye. I git yer gabble. But noo ma question to ye is "Wa have ye nae finished yon bonny tool cabinet fit ye started in 1993?". I think the answer is that time has gone fit wi'all knorb twiddlin, sole sighting , mouth closing, tuning and jumpin frae scrub te jack te jointer te smoother and measuring yon bonny whispies (the width) and all the noo....
Me, if ma thicknesser(thicknesser nae woodmuncher) hasanae instilled discipline (nae an oft'occurrin) then the smoother of choice gets one chance -otherwise it is out with the trusty scrapers, ye ken?Philip Marcou
Say What?Bill
http://www.agromgt.com/
But noo ma question to ye is "Wa have ye nae finished yon bonny tool cabinet fit ye started in 1993?".
Well.... truth be told it's still much as it was when I'd to set it aside to work on a more urgent project... changing table for a premature newborn.... and wi a client like that it's nae like I can tell it... Oi. yer too early.. git back far ye come fae..... right..????
Other than that, work's suckin up between 70-80 hours a week lately; first time in years we haven't been dead quiet through winter and they gotta pick the time when I wanna kick back a bit and get more time in the shop... shop time's been at a premium at the best o times... no time at all to work on stuff of my own...
Me, if ma thicknesser(thicknesser nae woodmuncher) hasanae instilled discipline (nae an oft'occurrin) then the smoother of choice gets one chance -otherwise it is out with the trusty scrapers, ye ken?
Yupp... I ken exactly fit ye mean.... that's why my #4 1/2 is York pitch, tight mouthed and kept razor sharp... works well enough for me to be wayyyyyy outa practice with the scrapers... and trust me... I dinna miss the burned finger tips.. ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Thank you for your input gentlemen. The wood I’m working with is really beautiful and I like it with the knots and blemishes. A lot of variation in the color from light to dark. The grain swirls all over the place and with the knots it is hard to plane. The smoothing plane should do the job. I should be home in about a month and then I will purchase a smoothing plane and see what happens.
The Stanley #28 wood body plane I have isn't the best but it was passed down from my grandfather so I refurbished it and it does a fair job. Next purchase, after the smoothing plane, will be a jointer plane.
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Thank you,
Bill
http://www.agromgt.com/
Choose carefully, because you may be setting a path for more than a single purchase. For example, if you get the LN 4 1/2, you'll probably wany to get the HAF for York pitch as well. Then when you consider a jointer and fore, it'll be hard to ignore the advantages of staying with LN, because the HAF and blades are interchangeable with the 4 1/2, 5, 6, and #7 jointer. :)
I'm half-way there already, and it's nice to be able to take the sharp blade out of the #6 and just keep working with the 4 1/2. And as someone else pointed out, a #6 with a HAF has a LOT of authority. :)
Next purchase though will probably be the #7, though I'm sidelined for the next two months. Can't wait to get back into the shop!My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I have both Veritas 4 1/2, and the Veritas low angle smoother. Both have always done everything I asked of them. I have one Lie Nielson plane left, and one scraper. The rest I have swapped away, as people are willing to pay dearly for them. They are great, but the Lee Valley items work just as well, at a lesser price.
< "I 2nd the LN 4 1/2 Yorkie. I love mine, and it will handle tough grain without a problem. I have not tried Veritas, but I've heard good things about them. >
Ditto.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
LieNielsen 4-1/2 with a York pitch.
I own many planes, and this has become an instant favourite.
The older I get, the better I was....
I you have a few tools, a bit of hardwood, a few bucks for an iron from Ron Hock, and a weekend, you can make one yourself. I'm happy with mine, though still getting used to adjusting with hammer taps.
Recently added an ECE Primus Reform plane to my arsenal. Lignum vitae sole with adjustable mouth. Wheel & lever adjustments for iron. Feels good in hand. After a few minutes honing the iron, a few more making test cuts and adjusting the throat opening, I was very happy with the feel of the tool and the quality of the cut.
It cost less than $200.00.
Good luck with your decision,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I have both ECE Primus' and Ulmia "tap-n-sets". I think they are wonderful. I bought the first one, because I literally couldn't believe I was seeing what I was seeing.
I don't use them everyday, nor do I use any of the others everyday, but I sure do like them. The ballpien adjustment is almost intuitive, and there is literally no learnig curve to it. They can be a little hard to push, because they are a bit high pitched, but when they are working, it all begins to seem a natural effort.
I have a big ECE jointer too, that I bought, sharpened, and set on the shelf, and probably have yet to use in the 10-15 years I have had the thing. It has started lots of conversations though.
Another vote for the L-N 4 1/2 York pitch. I used mine on some VERY currly cherry door panels just last night, smooth as glass!
The York pitch LN sounds like a good bet. When I made a bed out of butternut I ran across the wild grain problem also, but having only #4 and #6 Stanleys at the time, I used a Stanley #80 scraper to finish it with.
I went and did it. Yup. I had to go lookup what an HAF was and then purchased one of those shinny new LN 4 1/2 smoothing planes with the high frog. Costs the same as the one without the HAF. Thanks people for talking me into buying the thing. Now I can tell the little woman that the very men that rebuilt Berlin with hand tools recommended it and therefore I need it. "No Dear, it anin't my fault, they made me do it". I'll make something nice for her.
Thank you again Gentlemen for your input
Bill
http://www.agromgt.com/
Well here I was about to brag that I just go a new LV 4.5 for my birthday a few days back and now after reading through this passioned discussion I feel like the kid with the bad acne at the big dance. Some things a green polyester leisure suit just can't hide. I haven't even taken it out of the box yet, and I feel like I should add it to the pile of rusty buck brothers doorstops kicking around here somewhere.Guess I will just have to save some pennies for one of those new Holteys. Thanks for that Philip. When my wife asks what happened to the bank balance I'll tell her it your fault. <g>Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Edited 1/7/2006 5:55 pm ET by AndyE
Well, if you ain't going to dance with it, let me take it home for you, and save your rep.
No, no, no. don't get me wrong, It's not that I don't want to, Ijust haven't had time this week. I have been drooling over the catalog for some time and this was the first good chance at one. (This is the part where I swat the back of your hand as you reach across the workbench for it.)Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Andy
I think the Veritas planes are very nice. I had already started my collection of LN planes, and was completely hooked by the time I actually had a chance to see the Veritas smoother in action. A good friend is presently on his way with Veritas stuff, and drops by the shop now and then to "compare and share" new goodies with me. I've got half my daughter's college education tied up in hand tools!! They are all fun, though. I was impressed with the Veritas, but I wouldn't trade it for my LN yorkie, even with the $$ refund!
Jeff
I have owned the veritas plane for more than two years. Its an excellent plane. I also own a number of Lie-Neilson planes. I consider them to be of similar quality. The veritas give you more for your $.
Gorb
I recommend you to buy the Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2 with HAF. I have one and working with this tools is amazing.
Regards
Luis Hinestroza
"Which do you people feel would be the wisest purchase."
Dear Bill,
In all seriousness, I recommend purchasing some straight grained stock. You need a good smoothing plane. I paid $5 for my wooden smoother and I'm happy with it. But no matter how much you spend on a plane, you likely won't be happy with that butternut.
You probably know this already, but wood is not like aluminum. It can't be machined to aerospace tolerances and expected to remain thus. Whatever you do with this wood, its going to try to undo. I guess I'm afraid you are going to be frustrated. Maple, Walnut, Cherry, and Mahogany are all used for furniture for good reasons. They are all nice stable woods. Traditionally, when these woods were highly figured, they were veneered.
So you're going to need a $300 plane to work curly/figured woods. Or you can go out and get yourself a $5 plane and some better stock.
Adam
Or you can go out and get yourself a $5 plane and some better stock.
Or taylor the design of the piece to allow the figured wood wo move however it pleases without it tearing the project appart... rocket science it aint...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Or taylor the design of the piece to allow the figured wood wo move however it pleases without it tearing the project appart... rocket science it aint...Mike WallaceHi Mike,There's a lot of truth in what you say.....But I don't think its helpful to underestimate the challenge of working with wood in general, and swirly butternut specifically. As it happens, I'm an aerospace engineer (tho I don't work with rockets). We generally seek dimensionally stable iso-tropic materials. We do occasionally work with non-isotropic materials (non-metalic composites) and they generally give us fits, so.....For at least the last 500 years, people have been trying to find ways to work with wood, which is a very imperfect, non-isotropic, non stable material. The "right" answer has changed several times over the course of that time. Working with curly, or wavy grained woods is particularly challenging, though some species (I'm thinking of maple and black cherry) are better than others.So the challenge the original poster will face is he will plane a board straight and true and will find it not so the next day. In my shop, I work with a lot of Tulip which is not very stable. My rule is to plane and join in one day. But I've had pieces crack on me, and other problems...blah,blah,blah, I'm running off a bit- sorry. I just think given the choice, and this poster may not have one, beginning woodworkers are much better off with stable, straight grained, easy to work stock- mahogany, walnut, maybe cherry. Adam
So the challenge the original poster will face is he will plane a board straight and true and will find it not so the next day. In my shop, I work with a lot of Tulip which is not very stable. My rule is to plane and join in one day. But I've had pieces crack on me, and other problems...
Adam... there's a lot o truth in what you're saying... Lord knows I've experienced wood movement myself (in straight grained stock too)... the thing is though... figured wood has been around for a loooooooooooong time, the solutions to working with it have developed through necessity; good solutions stand the test of time...
My (admittedly hinted at) point was that the only way to gain understanding of how and why wood moves, what happens when you don't allow for it etc is to get your hands dirty while working with it... I've seen wild figure behaving with almost sickening civility under plane and saw, and experienced dead straight quarter sawn stock cork-screwing as it passes through the saw; ya never can tell what a board's gonna do till ya try it...
If it doesn't work it's more than likely that you'll learn more from the failure than you will with a successful piece (De H. Commet crash investigation comes to mind). If it does work however, the results can be breathtaking...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I'm with you 100%. I guess I don't wish these sorts of experiences on beginners. But whatever we say, people are going to do what they will. I guess I just want them to hear a full discussion first. This has been an excellent one!adam
Adam - This has turned out to be a far more interesting and informative discussion than I had hoped for. The reason I have chosen the butternut is simply because I have it. I also have cherry and green elm. The boards all came from trees that died in my yard and needed to be removed before they fell on my house or in the case of the cherry someone was going to make fire wood from it. The butternut is such a pretty wood I decided to start working with it. It sounds like it will be a challenge. And that is a good thing. I’ll work with it until the point of madness has been reached and I have thrown my new smoothing plane out the basement window. Or I get it right.
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Thank you,Bill
http://www.agromgt.com/
Don't forget that if you have the plane set for a really fine shaving, it won't tear out as much. Once it gets to the 'almost smooth enough' stage, back off the iron and finish it with the plane slightly skewed and the plane at a slight angle to the line it's heading in. Then, you could always use a cabinet scraper to finish it. If you want to, that is.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
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