So I may take the plunge by a helix planer. Before I do, has any brand of planer addressed or improved upon our old nemesis, snipe?
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Ah, the elusive and mythical snipeless machinery, eg, surface planers (aka jointers), thicknessers, spindle moulders, overhead routers, etc..
There's no such thing, but there is advertising hype and general disingenuous bollox spouted about these machines.
Reality means woodworkers in the know aren't fooled by advertiser's cloud cuckoo land, over-excited, and vaporous hyperbole. We cut about 50 mm+ off either end of each machined board.
It's a cost of the job and the hunt for snipe free machine wood processing equates roughly with the search for the holy grail-- it's never been found, and isn't worth the effort. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 4/19/2007 3:02 pm by SgianDubh
Richard, are you running short of beer , or what?Philip Marcou
Nah, philip. I'm supping a beer as I type, and there are plenty more where that came from, so no shortage there. I'm just telling it as it is in the real woodworking world, ha, ha.
In thirty five years of furniture making for a living, and thousands of hours of using light industrial, heavy industrial, and amateur level machinery I've never seen one that didn't snipe. Some snipe more than others, and some only snipe occasionally, but they all snipe.
In my experience it's impossible to set up a machine to eliminate all snipe. I've found that machines can be set up carefully so that snipe is reduced or minimal, but it can't be entirely eliminated.
As soon as, for example, pressure is released on the upper surface of the wood by any one of the infeed roller, chip-breaker, pressure bar and outfeed roller of a thicknesser, the wood will tend to spring upwards into the cutter block causing snipe. The problem is compounded if the lower anti friction rollers are raised at all to handle softer and/or wetter stock.
It's further compounded if the wood being thicknessed has any tendency to bow or cup, which is common. After all, wood is hygroscopic and reacts to changes in RH, and RH changes constantly. And there usually is also at least some minimal stress in wood, even in properly seasoned wood.
Snipe free machinery is a myth in my experience, and it's not a myth worth chasing. It's far easier to simply cut a couple of inches of wood off at either end of a board and move along to the next job. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 4/19/2007 5:44 pm by SgianDubh
Ah Richard, perhaps you are having an over-supply: not a bad situation after all.
I think an explanation for differing points of view on this (small) matter can be found in the fact that there are two main camps amongst woodworms: those that are mechanically inclined/interested in their machines and tools and how they work and those that are basically not. You and me could be two such examples.
Ray has it on the nail- exactly my take on it- so I would call this "friendly snipe" i.e it is not a problem- most definitely not worth cutting 50mm or so off every board-hell don't we cut enough off due to paint/end splits/ short supplied etc before going to the thicknesser?And what about wanting to thickness boards that are already the right length? And the chances of ragged ends?
If a thicknesser is doing the type of snipe I think you are referring to then it needs adjusting and or the operator is not supporting the work properly. I don't have any snipe from that old btch Dominion that I have, or the baby Tanner (Kiwi made). An old Robinson in a factory was cured when the pressure bar springs were replaced....
Certainly I would expect to have no snipe from any decent surfacer especially if a feeder is used. Ditto the shaper- the two part fence is there.It has just never been a problem- if and when it appeared it was sorted one way or the other.
I think that folk who use consistantly the same type of woods most of the time are even more entitled to get no snipe-as you say friction rollers can affect things so they can be adjusted-easily on the better machines. A decent machine will be able to hold down the timber as it passes under pressure bars etc without ill effect. However if one is jumping from hard to soft etc one is still entitled to a reasonably snipeless existence- depends upon how neurotic one gets....
I reckon that the average home woodworm with plenty of time on hand plus some mechanical knowledgeshould expect snipe to be virtually noon existent, given the machines available these days.
Anyway, each to his own- or is it a question of knowing a snipe when you see one?
Edited 4/19/2007 10:08 pm by philip
Funny, My message is not just to phillip, but to everyone: As long as I have been reading these forums, when it comes to tips concerning tools and Machinery, I always like to hear what RickL has to say. I don't recall ever disagreeing with his advice. Yet, everyone is just ignoring his post, pretending that you know as much as can be known. If you really want to know the answer to eliminating the problem. I feel sure that the answer is just there waiting for the asking.Just don't bother to ask unless you are willing to take his advice and follow it as closely as is within your capability. Otherwise, I would not bother to waste his time.
Keith, I agree with Rick and am not sure what you are saying to me in particular in your message-if anything?.
The trouble may be that Rick has stated his opinion from a machine mechanic's point of view. I am merely stating what I believe to be what the position could be for the average woodworker: we should expect to have either no snipe at all or at least a condition that is easily rectified when the timber is sanded , scraped handplaned etc. The notion of cutting off 2inches plus AFTER thicknessing because of snipe is ridiculous.
In fact we are ignoring the original poster....I think most machines out there are capable of operating without snipe- I refer to thicknessers.Philip Marcou
Hello,
New here! Been lurking for some time. I find this site and this forum very educational. The subject of beating snipe is just too much to resist!
I own a saw mill, and spend at least 16 hours a week turning rough lumber into four square lumber, for custom orders from woodworkers.
My opinion is based on my 15" Powermatic. Which I have frequent problems with adjustments and alignments going out of whack as I jam wide rough sawn Red Oak in it. I am the first to admit, the machine is undersized for what I ask it to do.
Just curious what is the definition of Snipe? What is acceptable? 1/128", 1/64" or 1/32" or is it that telltale rub mark from the rollers? Well for me I am only good at measuring down to 1/64", and confident and efficient at 1/32". So for me snipe needs to be something around numbers I can measure.
Here are my observations:
Negligible snipe planing is possible but can not be counted on. A perfectly face jointed board fed into a perfectly aligned machine, can produce negligible snipe boards often. With that said, I plan for Snipe before I get to the planer. I work with the maximum length board that will allow me to face joint out cup, bow and warp and obtain the required final thickness off the planer and cut to length after planing. If I can not work longer lengths, then I leave extra couple of inches to trim off of potential snipe.
All in all snipe is just part of life, Plan for planner snipe at the chop saw and jointer!
Max
Edited 4/22/2007 11:39 am ET by Max Sawdust
Edited 4/22/2007 11:43 am ET by Max Sawdust
I have to agree with you Philip.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
My 1980's era Makita 2030 jointer/planer combination machine is built without a pressure bar. I get snipe. My theory is that when stock leaves the first roller, the uplift created by the planer knives causes it to rise further into the knives. Thus the snipe. If there were a pressure bar, the stock would stay flatter to the table for a longer period, reducing the chance of snipe.
I've found, after much experimentation, that if I put quite a bit of pressure on the stock on the outfeed table as the end of a board gets to the cutter head, I can sometimes force it down enough to keep it from rising into the knives. Sometimes. And the stock has to be thick enough not to be subject to flexing.
So I've had to live with snipe for a long time. Unfortunately, there's no way to "adjust" anything on this machine. It is what it is. I've got a lot of end-of-board cutoffs lying around my shop...
On another subject, I've seen several references in this thread to raising the bed rollers in order to accommodate rough stock. In my work I always joint one face or one edge of rough stock before sending it through the planer. That flat side or edge goes face down against the infeed table. So, maybe others who also use this practice could try to eliminate snipe by lowering their bed rollers.
Zolton
This is just a post of my opinion/experience, not directed to anyone in particular. I too have one of the lunch box planers, and yes it does snipe. I diligently tried to adjust it out when it was new and got it to a point where I would say that the snipe was gone, meaning, I could not readily feel it or readily see it.
However, upon very close scrutiny, against different lighting, angles, etc, I could see it, barely, but I could detect it. So my conclusion was this; even though the amount was insignificant, it was still there. So when someone says you can adjust out snipe, I take it to mean that it is truely gone, not mostly gone, or so close it does'nt matter gone, or it barely snipes for the first 64th of an inch gone, but gone in the absolute sense.
For those of you who have achieved this, my hats off to you, that would be a very nice position to be in. I could not get mine to that point and in the end did not feel it necessary or that important for the amount of tinkering I would have to do, If I could achieve it at all. I am of the crowd that just plans for it and will use any if not all of the various bullet points that Mr. Jones listed.
Joker, you have got a point.If you have to look for it as you described then it may as well not be there-i.e there is no snipe so you have done well with a lunch box.
So I assume we are talking about the degree of snipe that necessitates re-cutting the ends, hiding things or other "tricks". Having seen that it is possible, necessary and actually easy to set up planing machines in a factory to exclude snipe of that degree I have always worked on that premise. If any snipe marks do not go when the work or components pass through a wide belt sander then the originator or operator needs adjusting.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,
Maybe I have done well with my planer, but even though it is so minimal it may as well not be there, the fact of the matter is, it is there. By definition, the condition is present, I cannot get rid of it. By the way, its not that precise currently, hasn't been for a while.
I guess the reason I posted my experience is that I am wondering if when the claim is made that all snipe can be eliminated, if that is truely the case or is it more of a situation where it is just reduced to such a small degree that its "almost" like not being there as you stated. When I was adjusting my planer, tinkering with it, tuning it, messing with it, I began looking at the situation in terms of black or white. Either I could get rid of it or I could not, the degree of which was not important to me.
Since I cannot get rid of snipe absolutely, it doesn't matter to me if it is a quarter of an inch or .001", snipe is snipe. It happens at the ends of the board, about the first and last 3", and as I related before, I just plan accordingly with the overall length of the board. Again, for those of you who, and it sounds like you are one of them, can get rid of it completely, you have achieved something I gave up on along time ago.
Right now my planer probably snipes about a 32nd of an inch or so, a little less with new blades, a little more with dull ones, works for me.
Joker, for the record: I am not claiming that snipe can be totally eliminated.
I do claim that snipe which necessitates altering the production process, or reversing the work flow, or leads to increased waste due to "extras" cut off, or any other counter -productive activities in a factory, should be rectified.
If it sands or otherwise is removed during the normal course of events then that snipe is acceptable- i.e ignored-in other words it is immaterial.
I understand that a planer in good condition can be set to have virtually no visible snipe initially, but with time and wear on the cutters plus a number of other factors snipe may creep in. Depending on conditions such as the type of timber this may be a short time -like 1 shift-and the cutters need re-sharpening so why not make sure it is set without snipe?
I have previously explained how I think this applies to home woodworkers-I am sure you understand.I don't understand why folk claim a thing does not exist- because they have not seen it.
Philip Marcou
Edited 4/24/2007 10:38 pm by philip
Hi Philip,
By the way, I think you make beautiful hand planes. I agree with you that anything that can be done to improve production, machine performance or reduce waste is desirable. I also agree that if snipe is removed during the normal finishing process that it now becomes immaterial.
All of the comments or responses on this thread have been from two camps of thought; snipe is something you live with or snipe can be eliminated. I was merely expressing my experience and my personal opinion on the matter, which in reality, doesn't mean a whole hill of beans.
My experience and opinion are that I cannot get rid of snipe on my planer, half of the time I don't think I can cut a straight line, but I digress. Anyway, as I stated, when the claim is made that snipe can be adjusted out, or "my planer doesn't snipe" etc. etc., what I picture in my mind or what I am interpreting is just that. Now if someone says that they can reduce it to where its almost non existant, or that you don't have to settle for excessive snipe that makes cutting the ends off necessary all of the time, that makes sense to me and whole heartedly would agree.
What I don't agree with is that snipe can be eliminated. I know it is kind of nit picky, but thats me. And with all due respect to all on this forum, what I interpreted from some of the comments, and I could be completely wrong on this, is that planers should not snipe "at all" and if they do, something is wrong, and that snipe can be "totally eliminated". I personally feel that, yes they do all snipe and that you cannot get rid of it entirely and that to me, "almost entirely" is not the same.
All of this is my personal opinion, take that and about $2.00 and you might be able to get a cup of coffee. It's fun having this discussion with you, have a great day.
Likewise- a pleasure to talk with you.Glad you did not feel the need to "go drink with the big boys". (;)
Enjoy your woodworking.Philip Marcou
Well thanks Keith. It's a shame so many good woodowrkers never had a chance to use a snipeless planer. I just checked a couple of machines I take care of and measured the ends and middle of some test pieces with a dial caliper...no measurable snipe! One was a 24" Delta that's mounted on wheels to keep it portable. The other is a 24" Northtech helical head in a local school.
It's a total myth that all planers have snipe. The machine just isn't set right.
Edited 4/20/2007 12:52 pm ET by RickL
You are welcome. Since the tone of most of those posting had a tone of resolve of acceptance of the problem, I could not help but wonder why nobody bothered to ask you how to eliminate this problem, since this is your area of expertise.Would you care to give any helpful tips for setting up to eliminate the problem? I am always eager to learn anything that will make me a better craftsman.I would also like to know if there are certain tools that have better features, and easier adjustments for tweaking things.Also, in most things, when you do something to improve one thing, there is often a trade-off in another area. Any comments there?
The bedrolls are cause of most snipe. Having the pressure bar and feed rolls set is important but I set the bedrolls around .002". Waxing the bed prevents feed problems. About 1/2 the shops and schools I went to for planer feed problems was a simple waxing of the bed. You should have seen the look on their faces. The knife setting isn't that critical. On the 24" Rockwell I use the spring loaded knife setter and it gets them to within .005" of each other and still I'm getting no snipe. I could get them set closer but it runs a lot of antique wood and gets changed frequently so it's not critical.
I can adjust the snipe out of planers, jointers, and shapers. It takes practice and it's not something you can write down on a post in a forum to make sense to everyone.
Edited 4/20/2007 2:02 pm ET by RickL
Hi Rick,
I'm coming in late on this one but it is of interest to me . I've been using small portable planers for years but just recently bought a used Delta DC 380 15" planer. Whole new ballgame. Lots of adjustability, Yeah!
Besides the beadrollers and wax, what other things affect snipe? Pressure rollers? Material support? Do all these things interact or are there just 1 or 2 " most important " adjustments to concentrate on? Do you just play with all of the different settings looking for the correct combination or is there a basic starting point and work your way down?
If you don't mind, maybe walk me through a " what you might do " scenario if you were asked to adjust a planer for snipe that you haven't seen before.
Thanks, Paul
I get $50 an hour to work on machines. If I have to spend an hour writing what's in your manual..."Besides the beadrollers and wax, what other things affect snipe? Pressure rollers? Material support? Do all these things interact or are there just 1 or 2 " most important " adjustments to concentrate on? Do you just play with all of the different settings looking for the correct combination or is there a basic starting point and work your way down?"
Pretty much...yes! There is a sequence to follow. Follow the manual then if that doesn't work throw out the manual. This is where it takes previous experience to do anything. Not something simply easy to write down.
Edited 4/20/2007 5:30 pm ET by RickL
Well Rick...........excuse me. All you needed to say was follow your manual. Since you seem to have the inside edge on this ( or think you do ) I thought you might have something constructive to say. Three possibilities. It isn't as difficult or mysterious to get rid of snipe as you make it sound , you are unwilling to share, or it can't be done.I'll find out on my own.
Paul
ps your $50 an hour does not impress
Well I am going against my better judgment, but I just have to respond.
I agree with Rick,Keith, Phillip and all others that has said yes it is possible to eliminate snipe.
Any machine properly designed and manufactured can be set up to preform properly. Rick was not evasive in my opinion, it is much more difficult to explain in written words than it is to do in reality.
All that is needed is a basic understanding of the function of the chip-breaker, pressure bar and bed rolls. When this is known it is only a process of elimination to correct the snipe problem. However if the machine is faulty or lacking the basic material control elements, that is a different story. A jointer with a badly warped in-feed table would take a lot more work than a jointer with a mis adjusted out-feed table. As far as a "lunch-box" planer, good luck.
This has been my experience with over 30 years in the business.
Charles
I find the difficulties come from the constant changing from bed rollers up to bed rollers down from thin to thick from softwood to hardwood and the general run of the mill work in a commercial shop which inevitably causes the machine to start creeping slightly out, especially if the guy using the machine knows it isn't his and he won't need to fix any problems. On thin stuff I use an auxilliary bed (piece of MFC or melamine) to get over the feed rollers trying to bend the stock down into the recesses in the bed where the bed rollers are and I try to chain feed stock for consistency - that certainly stops it - but there are still times, especially on the wilder grained timbers where I'll see snipe
Scrit
I agree with Rick. I have a Bridgewood BW-120PS and I have owned it for four years and have no snipe. I don't know if the spiral head is the key, but I think it was just set up properly by the techs at Wilke Machinery. It snorts once in a while when I have not Boeshielded for a long while. I'll Boeshield the table and the pressure foot and it goes away. Butcher's wax works also.
Terry
Rick
For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. My Oliver 399 was completely snipe free because it was set up properly by a fella much like yourself, who was in the know on how to adjust it properly. Like you, he would laugh at this thread because none of the machines that left his care ever created snipe.
He would state........."SNIPE!!!! What the hell is that?!?! NOT on any of the machines that leave my shop!!"
All that with a proud thump on his chest! He's my go-to guy for machinery.
Jeff
I think there's maybe a point about volume to be bourne in mind here. If the machine is set-up without snipe, Sodt's Law will ensure that it won't stay that way forever in a busy shop. In a commercial shop the volumes can be huge in comparison to a home shop. For example three years back we were averaging 1-1/2 to 2 tonnes of sheet material a day (or 30 to 50 sheets) in a 4 man shop and at the same time we were using 1/2 to 3/4 tonnes of hardwood lippings a month. If I had to stop the thicknesser for an hour for the engineer to come and tinker with it every few weeks it was costing me more than any amount of snipe would. So I'd continue until things got really annoying and then eventually do something about it. This is not laziness - it's commercial necessity. Once the machine had been set-up it would be great, until we got some poor quality stock, or someone got rough with the machine, etc. - then we had snipe again. As the pros have said, snipe for those of us who don't live in a theoretical world is a practical, everyday problem which we accept and deal with from time to time.
Scrit
Scrit, you've saved me posting a similar reply to Jeff. I go along with your general analysis. In my experience snipe free wood machining with a prefectly set up machine in a busy workshop usually lasts anywhere between about 5- 10 minutes if you're unlucky, and perhaps as much as a day if the woodworking gods are looking kindly on you, ha, ha.
I've found it's easier and cheaper for the most part to just to cut it off, hide it, or plane/sand it out, etc., Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
As another who's probably laid waste to more lumber than most of you will see in your lifetimes I would agree with Sgian on this. While a machine can be set up to avoid snipe it's often just not worth it in terms of time for the professional. Having worked in quite a number of shops with varying degrees of sophistication they have all had snipe. Hobbiests have the advantage of more time to putter with their toys and more time to select board lengths to avoid waste. In my world as a professional the cheapest thing in the shop is the wood so agonizing over a few board feet here and there is folly. I can buy a lot of lumber for what an hour of my time is worth. My waste is probably 35% to 50% on most projects because selection is so important.So, there is no challenge to snipe hunting in my shop, both planers snipe and the shaper often does as well. Lee
Philip, it's probably as you say, "knowing a snipe when you see one."
Machines can be set up to go a long way to relieving snipe as RickL describes. I've set up machines that are darned good after my tinkering. I know my way around these machines thoroughly so the set up is nothing new and no mystery, but it takes time and some patience, and an employer, or even myself, prepared to allow the necessary time. Sometimes near enough has to be good enough and back to banging out the product.
One major problem I find is that no machine I've ever worked with is for my use exclusively. And the abilityof wood to be contrary can't be forgotten. By the time you get some rough and ready hacking going on from a multitude of users with a multitude of woods in varying conditions it doesn't take long for flaws to show-- the nicks in the blade, the gummed up tables, the chips under the anti-friction rollers, dulled blades, the wood that springs up, etc..
I've always found it easier to live with the fact that snipe happens and work around it. Either cut it off, or do some of the tricks Scrit suggested, e.g., incorporate it within the length of a tenon, thickness sand or hand plane it out, hide it at the back somewhere, etc..
A finely set up machine in a busy workshop doesn't stay that way for more than a couple or three days if you're lucky, so, on the whole, it's not worth chasing that last 2% or 3 % of performance.
Snipe's a fact of life. Live with it, move along, and put your energy into something you can do something about. That's the way I've come to deal with it during my time in the industry. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
but it takes time and some patience...........
And the average guy is not going to deal with it. That's why I asked if any manufacturer has an edge in that department.
Richard,
"One major problem I find is that no machine I've ever worked with is for my use exclusively".
I had forgotten about that- now I recall how certain chaps used to winge . Working on ones own has many advantages.
You are right enough- excessive tinkering and adjusting becomes counter productive, so knowing when to stop is the trick.
Or one can do what Ray does- stop, call a friend round with a 12 bore to shoot snipe.Philip Marcou
Well, I just thought I'd ask.
On lunchbox planers I rarely have snipe issues once infeed and outfeed tables have been adjusted to eliminate it. I use the 'ten cent solution' where the outer lip of both tables is about a dime's height above the platen. Remember, we're talking lunchbox planers here.
On larger floor standing or stationary machines I have no direct experience so add a large grain of salt to the following . . . From what I hear from users, snipe and surface dimpling are part of the tools natural existence. Someone stated it rather clearly; "don't try to make the tool what it isn't".
I have seen several folks that mount a lunchbox to the top of their floor unit, let the big beast do the lion's share of the work and then clean up with the little guy, width allowing.
LOL. Directed to all .........
I had no intentions of creating a 60+ post "argument" and I was not demanding every possible complicated fix to the problem. I was merely asking that, while in the market for a new planer, if any new machine had improved upon the problem of snipe.
Apparently not. And it's no big deal. And no, I am not about to go making adjustments to every piece of wood that flows through the table. To me, I'm not that good at mechanics, and secondly, to me it's not worth it. I was simply asking if any machine had an advantage. Nuff said.
Look at the SCMI and Minimax lines. I've worked the occasional ones over the years and it was never for adjusting out snipe. They have pretty much made them idiot proof as the feed rolls, pressure bar are preset and don't need to be adjusted. They use spring loaded knives which set in a matter of minutes with a special gauge or the newer have the option of Tersa knives which change faster than any knife. Basically you tap the gib down in the slot and either flip the double edged knife or put in a new knife as you have exhausted both edges. When you have changed the knives you turn on the machine and the centrifugal force forces the gibs to lock the knives in place. The tolerances are so close there is no dangerof a knife flying out. I don't think these heads have been accurately reviewed in any hobby magazine so most folks still have no idea of the ease of knife changing with the Tersa heads. I myself have never seen snipe on these planers. On the bigger SCMI planers they do have quick adjust bedrolls which will cause snipe if set to the higher settings. Your question did bring out the fact that most woodworkers believe snipe is a fact of life, which is a shame because I and a few other know this is not the case.
Rick, "Your question did bring out the fact that most woodworkers believe snipe is a fact of life, which is a shame because I and a few other know this is not the case."
Amen.
I am absolutely amazed at the number of people who, one would think, should know better than to take snipe as a given. Statements such as " I have laid waste to more wood than most of you would see in a life time" etc are no qualification or excuse at all-it implies to me that the person has not been using machinery correctly, or that he has a crap machine , or that he couldn't be bothered.... In similar vain the willingness to "cut some off each board": what an inefficient work method - I always thought time, labour and materials were connected to money and profits .
Roll on the fire brigade, but I am flame proof. Years as a factory manager in a factory that used mostly SCM Invincible, some Wadkin, Robinson and Pinheiro machines showed me that good well maintained machines will not give "nipped" or sniped boards: I refer to thicknessers. Not to mention the French Guilllet four cutter-imagine if "some had to be cut off every board" that went through that machine -in a 9hour shift that one could plane several thousand 6 foot long boards.That was in the 80's, when I was in a position to summon the factory tech.
Philip Marcou
Phillip and others,I find it utterly astounding that you and others would base assessments on such a thing as snipe.In my world snipe is truly trivial, in yours and others it appears to be the primary criteria for validity as a craftsman. Judging a craftsman based on snipe? You're kidding, right?Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
Edited 4/24/2007 12:09 pm ET by LeeGrindinger
Excuse me.... pardon...... some room here please!....... just smoothing out the mud a bit folks rake, rakeshovel sweep sweep sweepThere, all tidy again.Carry on!
LMAO
No need to snipe at me , Lee.Who said anything about judging craftsmanship?
Agreed- for me it is a trivial matter as I don't find it a problem to fix.
I would like people whose minds are not fixed to understand this and get the full benefit from their machines-since most on this forum work wood for enjoyment.
And for professionals there is the question of efficiency- notice that- somebody can still be a superb craftsman but work inefficiently. Think about it.The trouble with some craftsmen is that they can suffer from delusions of grandeur which prevent them from seeing the big picture.
Philip Marcou
This is getting kinda weird, I'll think I'll go drink with the big boys.
Toodles.Lee
Philip
I'm rejoining the fray here. I made mention of a snipe free shop environment, my own, and I was written off pretty quickly as a hobbiest, which of course, I am not.
My most recent commission(s) are a perfect example of the time and money saved by having my planer dialed in properly. I just made 3 tables out of cherry slabs that I sawed myself. Each table is bookmatched, and the slabs are filled with figure and crotch grain. They came from a short butt log, and they were only 50" long. The longest table is 48" long, and I needed every last inch to be able to use these slabs. 3" of snipe at each end would have precluded their use. Talk about saving time, because time is money. It would have taken a helluva lot more time to plane these slabs by hand to finished thickness, instead of just having to smooth them.
I saved hours in shop time if hand milling were required, and who knows what I would have had to pay for slabs of this quality. My milling expenses were roughly 50 cents per bf, and the log was a freebee from an excavating contractor that I get logs from for free, as long as I remove them from his work site pronto. What would 6 flitched 5/4 slabs of cherry crotch 15" wide and 4 feet long cost to purchase? A wee bit more than the 45 minutes to dial in the planer, wouldn't you say?
Jeff
Excellent , Jeff, that is exactly one of the points that I was trying to put across and also shows how it can be applied to hobbyists.
I could provide more examples that apply to both hobbyists and industrialists, but I suspect the subject is now comatose, plus some have elected to "go drink with the big boys".
The tables sound tremendous- can you post some pictures?Philip Marcou
Philip
The fine lady of the house has gone adrift with her lady friends, and hijacked my digital camera. When she gets back this weekend, I'll take some photo's, as the tables are still in my shop. I'm giving them a nice natural sun tan finish for color before I spray them and deliver them to the customer. I'll post in the gallery as to not disrupt this thread, even though I agree that this one is at it's end. It sure would have been nice if we were invited to go drink with the big boy's, don't you think?? I'd promise to leave my snipe-free comments at home, and I'm sure you'd ablige, as well! ;>)
Jeff
I am not familiar with SCMI.
SCMI is one of the largest producers of woodworking equipment in the world. Based in Italy. Minimax is a subsidiary. Their planers are made for guys like you. The minimax line is more affordable. Consider this...scrimping may actually cost you more in frustration in dealing with snipe not too mention the money you loose in trimming off boards.
You must have heard of Minimax!!!!
I've lost all respect of the professionals who claim there is no solution to snipe. A few of us know better. I always figured it was the few who didn't know how to get rid of snipe, not the majority.
Edited 4/24/2007 8:07 am ET by RickL
Hey Rick,
"I've lost all respect of the professionals who claim "
Are you sure you ever had it?
Har,
Ray
Okay, yes. I have a minimax 16" bandsaw. Not my favorite machine but heavily built. I just never heard the name SCMI before. I'll look into their planers. Thank you.
As to those who can or cannot get rid of snipe, I have to say that while I've woodworked all my life, I'm not profficient at mechanics and I could see myself screwing up a perfectly good machine in trying to fine tune it.
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=34&Itemid=26
You can look at the SCMI planers line but you will probably find the Minimax still more than you want to pay. They use the same technology on their machines as the more industrial SCMI line.If you want a no adjustement/no snipe machine this is one option.
http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/machines/standard_line/s520eseries.html
Edited 4/24/2007 9:35 am ET by RickL
Ya. LOL. I think 9HP is a bit over the top for me. LMAO. Thank you.
I've really missed the boat..,You mean I could be a decent a woodworker if only I'd tune the snipe out of my tools?Finally, enlightenment..., bliss..., what a relief!It's snipe that's stood between me and respect..., why didn't I see it sooner?Lee
"I've lost all respect of the professionals who claim there is no solution to snipe. A few of us know better. I always figured it was the few who didn't know how to get rid of snipe, not the majority."
I know the real answer to fixing thicknesser snipe Rick. Have at least two thicknessers, better still, three thicknessers available in a busy workshop and to employ a full time technician to go from one machine to the other every few hours and cure the problem as it arises. This way at least one machine should still be running whilst the other(s) is/are being tweaked to squeeze the last 2 or 3% of performance out of them.
The alternatives are probably cheaper and generally employed in all the busy workshops I've been involved in. These tricks have mostly already been mentioned, but include:
deliberately leaving the damaged and disposable split ends of planks on during machining so that the snipe doesn't matter anyway,
chopping sniped ends of good wood off,
incorporating sniped bits into joinery such as tenons,
hiding the sniped bits up in the back somewhere,
thicknessing overlong parts- usually sniped at either end- and later cutting these overlong bits into the shorter requisite lengths later or,
thickness sanding/planing/scraping/hand sanding the snipe out.
The above bulleted list is the reality for most of us professional woodworkers in the business, and whether or not you've "lost all respect for professionals" like me for having to deal with reality will change none of the techniques listed being used in any workshop I'm involved in. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
<<...and whether or not you've "lost all respect for professionals" like me for having to deal with reality...>>Richard,I can't speak for RickL, and I can see where the "lost all respect" thing may have ruffled some feathers, but what I got from his comments was simply that if you can tune a machine to work perfectly, why wouldn't you do that? I don't know RickL personally, but have used some of the equipment that he maintains, and it's always a pleasure to work with a machine that performs just as it should.Mike
if you can tune ....
Maybe therein lies the issue. IF....
I've met many professionals. Great builders. Great artists. Being professional (on either an emotional or commercial sense) doesn't mean to me they are experts in every aspect.
I'll make an analogy. I wouldn't lose respect for a guitar maker if he couldn't play like Eric Clapton. I wouldn't lose respect for him if he couldn't manufacture his own strings. I wouldn't lose respect for him if he didn't grow, cut and dry his own lumber.
There are those special indiduals who may have mastered every aspect of thing. My hat's off to them. However, they are uncommon.
<<I wouldn't lose respect for him if he didn't grow, cut and dry his own lumber.>>blewcrowe,I didn't mean to suggest that if one isn't capable of adjusting his equipment to aircraft tolerance that he deserves no respect. My point was simply that if a machine can be tuned to perform perfectly (by you or someone with the ability to do so), why wouldn't you want that? That's all.Mike
why wouldn't you want that?.................
I would. It's that I think many of us will not "get there" in that respect. I've only been on this forum a coupla weeks and I can see we have a very broad mix of pros, top amateurs, hobbyists, interested parties, and some like me who're dumber than a doorknob.
Wow, intense little argument going on here, insults, back stabbing....
I personally got sick of the problems with snipe relating to bed rollers, so I just lowered them below the table surface, and I have a sheet of 3/4" thick melamine coated particleboard in place as my new and improved table surface. It works great!
I've had the first one in my planer for probably 10 years, I keep it lubricated, and I haven't worn through the surface yet. And best of all, my planer doesn't flip the boards as they roll off or on the rollers.
Besides, isn't the purpose of those rollers only to make rough boards go through easier?
Hal
Hal, what make of machine are you running?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip,
I use a Delta 13", made by Invicta in Brazil. It's not perfect by any means, but I have had it for about 20 years and it will run all day long, or at least as long as I can stand the noise.
It would be an almost perfect machine if it was a new SCMI.
Hal
Hi Mook I can't believe this thread still has such legs. I haven't look at it since my last post on it, and didn't have time to read all of the post. I was just wondering if anyone has offered any tips that might really be helpful to someone trying to getting rid of it. One thing that I did a long time ago on my old Crescent 24" was to build an outfeed extension table that is attached by hinges to the back of the outfeed bed. It is about six feel long, and has a single plywood leg on its outboard end that can add or reduce its height by tilting it more or less, and or blocking under it. I try to have it set a little higher than a line straight out, so it automatically provides some lifting of the lumber as it comes out the back. This was an easy thing to make, and it allows me to be in the front of the machine to start the next board long enough to get it started behind the last one going in. I can then run back and take it off after it has cleared the back rollers.Since I am a one-man shop, I have to find ways to keep the work flow going
efficiently without being dependent on a good helper.If someone else has offered this suggestion, I am sorry for being redundant.
Good stuff and some impassioned opinions.
It's been a while since a thread hit 100 comments/posts, and here we are at 101.
And to think that I thought snipe were something you sent gullible younger Boy Scouts out chasing after.....
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
pz,
"snipe were something you sent gullible younger Boy Scouts out chasing after....."
We sent them to other campsites, looking for a smoke shifter, for the campfire. Your planer might need one of those, if it's way dull. I'm afraid you'll get no respect, if your planer doesn't have a correctly adjusted smoke shifter...
Ray
<<if your planer doesn't have a correctly adjusted smoke shifter...>>Mine works best with a henway.Mike
Hey Mike,
I like the heavy duty 18 pound model, the turkeyway. If you feed a board thru without taking off any thickness, that extra weight squeezes the stock, effectively making the planer a board stretcher. How 'bout you?
Ray
This to all, not to joinerswork (mistakenly addressed, and edited 4/27/07 12:56PM cst)
This thread in a nutshell.
Dude asks question about eliminating snipe.
Smart, experienced equipment dude gives excellent advice.
Old timer salty woodworker types show up touting stories of 10 billion board feet planed, and it can't be done.
100 posts poking fun at smart, experienced equipment dude.
Smart, experienced equipment dude gives no more GOOD advice.
Great thread, huh? Way to go, guys!
Jeff
Edited 4/27/2007 1:54 pm ET by JeffHeath
Hi Jeff, and all,
I think the various aspects of snipe, the degrees of, possiblities of reducing or eliminating, the economic aspects of cost analysis in comparing lumber cost vs labor costs vis a vis the diminishing return on time invested in adjusting, maintenance schedules, have all been adequately addressed. Now we are at a point where each poster's opinions are being analysed for the degree of consideration they have been given, and the seriousness of same, based on a sliding scale of whether feelings have been bruised?
Friends, it just never ceases to amaze me, the degree of animosity that is aroused by an expression of disagreement with another's opinion, on this forum. Man if you or your guru are tied to a particular tool brand, sharpening method, dovetailing procedure, bevel angle, bevel up bevel down, or whether you file saws yourself or send them out, to the point where you must lose all respect of someone with a differing opinion, then you are taking yourself way too seriously, and need a little perspective on what in this life is serious. But that's just my opinion, and you know what? You have my permission to disagree with me! Won't hurt my feelings at all.
My apologies to you, and the smart equipment dude, if my attempts to lighten things up were inappropriate, and caused hurt feelings. I just didn't realise snipe was such a serious topic to some folks.
Respectfully,
Ray,
Thank you. I guess I have the right to say that because I started the thread. And I too think this got way too serious. Admonishments, condemnations, finger pointing. Jeesh.
For one to say, "Well, my experience tells me ....", that is one thing. Any points beyond that are a bit over the top, IMHO. I think some wish to see their word on the screen so badly, they do not pay attention to the question. It's a ME world, I guess.
If you'll go back to the original post, almost no one actually answered my question. The whole thing went off into a tangent about adjustments. So in terms of did we help one another, the answer is, "No. We failed".
Some may get their rocks off with argumentation, but really, it comes out as so childish on the observing end. Me, I think life's a good thing and I have fun with my woodworking like I do with life.
Ray, and all:
I made a mistake when I posted my comment. It was supposed to be to "all", and not directed to you. I forgot to click on the drop down box, and change my reply to "all".
My comments weren't directed at you, or anyone else, in particular. I was really agreeing with you regarding a 100 post thread over something as trivial as snipe. I guess there's just nothing good on tv, anymore. Either that, or nobody is busy building anything in their shop because the economy is so bad that noone has any work. Either way, it's all comical.
I didn't intend on calling you out, just simply stating how funny a 100 post thread over snipe was. As usual, because I'm not good at expressing myself with written word, it was misunderstood. Sorry! I actually enjoy the funny stuff when you, lataxe, James(pzgren) and the rest of the crew get going on something humerous, as it's the only reason why I come here. My single attempt at levity in 2 months ended in disaster!
For the record, when RickL has something to offer regarding machinery, I listen and learn quite a bit. Also, for the record, I seriously doubt he's thin skinned enough to be bothered by a disagreement. And lastly, for the record, I found it extremely comical that Lee felt that the forum was so beneath him that he needed to go back to drinking with the big boys, and leave us trivial sorts to ourselves. Whatever! This is my 4th post in this thread, which obviously was 3 too many.
I'll continue to enjoy your posts in silent mode, as no offense was intended.
Jeff
I wouldn't touch this argument with a ten foot 6 inch board with three inches cut off each end, on the other hand, it's amusing reading.I definitely feel the spirit of the Geico caveman hovering over this thread. The Domino thread, as well.Other than that, as usual I have nothing to add. Waiting delivery of my 9 HP planer.
A 9hp planer? U du man!
I was just being silly, blewcrowe - I can't afford a 9 Hp planer! I'm still wondering if getting snipe while using bench planes is a problem!
I suppose I could buy a 9hp planer, but it would be such overkill for the likes of me. I don't do this for a living. OTOH, I've taken it a lot farther than the typical hobby.
Anyway, if you were havin fun, I only have one thing to say .........
U da man.
Just adjust that 9hp puppy to snipe deep enough to trim the last 3" entirely off, then it don't matter any more. Makes this whole thread null & void ;~)The Professional Termite
ROFLMAO!
I nominate that post for best in thread!
Rob
Ray, you are bound under contract to continue writing the Queen's English, and to supply unlimited useful information plus amusing stories.
"Friends, it just never ceases to amaze me, the degree of animosity that is aroused by an expression of disagreement with another's opinion, on this forum." It happens here on the edge of the world too- I spent the day attending the annual gathering of hot-rodders in a small coastal town here and witnessed a thorough bashing given - one fellow said that Holdens were better than Fords....Philip Marcou
Jeff,This from joinerswork:<<My apologies to you, and the smart equipment dude, if my attempts to lighten things up were inappropriate, and caused hurt feelings>>Ditto for me. I posted several times to this thread, twice in support of the smart equipment dude. My last post wasn't meant to poke fun at anyone. If the following unwritten rule isn't already in place, it should be: After 100 posts, a little humor should be allowed.Your assessment of RickL as an experienced, smart "equipment dude" is accurate, and I doubt he will stop giving good advice on this forum anytime soon.Mike
Edited 4/27/2007 12:30 pm ET by Mike_B
Ray, <<'m afraid you'll get no respect, if your planer doesn't have a correctly adjusted smoke shifter...>> Left-handed or right -handed?? ;-) (I dearly hope that this innocent question doesn't start another hundred-post argument on the virtues of right- vs left-handed smoke shifters.....heh heh heh!!!)
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Always needed the smoke shifter to clear the air so they could see how to tie a trailer hitch with the 100' of shoreline I sent them after. Fun times and fond memories.The Professional Termite
Mike, I have tuned many light industrial and dinky thicknessers and other machines per the book, and got them working perfectly. I've been around when the Wadkin technicians, Felder technicians and the SCMI technicians have come in and set up their thicknessers by their books so that when they walk out of door the machines thickness perfectly.
I can't remember in thirty plus years of furniture making for a living ever seeing one of these perfectly working machines working perfectly for more than a couple of days. I have seen the snipe habit reappear within twenty minutes of the service and for that snipe then to be a continuing on and off feature of the thicknessing process until the next service, which might be in a week, a month or it might be three months down the line.
I do know that for many business types it's not cost effective to strip a machine every few days and readjust the settings. There are, of course, businesses that change knives out a couple of times or more a day and readjust the machines because of the volume of wood going through, and for them it's cost effective.
I do know from experience that woodworking machines tend to go out of whack pretty quickly, and without going to what for many would be cripplingly expensive continuous maintenance they don't work right for long.
Over and above the issue of a technician walking away from a machine he or she has set up to work as it should there are factors that do cause less than stellar performance. The knives get dull, dust gets under the seat of the anti-friction rollers, chips get stuck in odd places. Wood releases stress as it's being machined and doesn't always stay perfectly flat as it passes through. This is especially notable at the beginning and end of planks which can and do sometimes spring up as the chipbreaker releases pressure at the end of the cut and before the pressure bar comes into play at the beginning of the cut.
I'm retiring as gracefully as I can from this thread. No-one needs me and my know-it-all bull-headedness to stir the pot any more. This forum doesn't deserve that. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
<< No-one needs me and my know-it-all bull-headedness to stir the pot any more.>>Richard,I didn't mean to imply that at all and am sorry if it sounded that way. And, I understand that in a professional environment, it's necessary to just keep the work moving, even when it means adapting to less than optimally performing equipment (which I often do). In a perfect world, I'd have a technician on retainer 24/7, and all my stuff would be dialed in exactly. But, my world is not perfect.Mike
Ah Richard,
You misread what Rick wrote. He didn't say he'd lost respect for professionals, he lost the respect of the professionals. Big difference in a small word, don't you think?
By far the worst sniping I've seen recently, has taken place on this board, not the ones out in the shop ;-)>
Cheers,
Ray
My 1928 Oliver 399 was professionally restored by a local guy who rebuilds old woodworking machinery for a living. He knew exactly how to adjust the machine to completely eliminate snipe. I had that planer for 3 years and never had snipe. I wish I still had it, but it had no dust collection, and my homemade dust collection hood mounted to it was only partially adequate, and I got tired of all the darned chips everywhere.
Jeff
Edited 4/22/2007 2:02 pm ET by JeffHeath
It IS out there, but you will not find it in the slick words from your tool dealer/distributer. The ONLY way to get a snipe free board out of your planer is to get all the alignments DEAD ON. If everything is PRECISELY machined on your machine, AND if your blades are ABSOLUTELY parrellel to one another AND the bed, AND you set your pressure bar and chip-breaker with accuracy to the 10th decimal point, THEN you MAY get a board to plane without snipe.
The reallity, as mentioned before, is that you really nead to waste the first and last 3-4 inches of each board that you push through the machine. We are routinely changing blades and re-calibrating the bed, feed rollers, pressure bar, chip-breaker, etc... as part of our maintenance schedule (i use thet term very loosly (: ) and even with a dial indicator you'll never get it EXACTLY right. I have never witnessed a machine that will plane a board without even a little snipe.
I hear you. Basicly, I just figure an extry 6 or 7" on each board so's I can cut off each end. I only wondered is anyone or any system had improved on it.
It is not clear to me what kind of planer you mean, but I have found that if I do as GaryW suggests, I have no problems. My planer is a Delta 22-565 "lunchbox" which has a head locking device. Never plane without one! In addition to GaryW's suggestion, I make my final pass a very light cut which I find improves surface quality.If you want a cast iron behemoth planer which is capable of removing 1/4-inch in one pass, you will probably have to settle for a surface more like a washboard. You might want a cast iron behemoth sander to go with it. Snipe should not be an issue in such a case.Cadiddlehopper
I adjust machinery professionally and none of the planers I adjust have snipe. Of course these aren't lunchbox planers. SCMI, Rockwell, Delta, Northfield, Oliver, even the inports like Northtech, etc. Snipe can be adjusted out. I do use a caliper to check.
Edited 4/19/2007 4:40 pm ET by RickL
Richard Jones couldn't be more correct: there's no such thing as snipe free machinery. However, you may reduce your planer's snipe. When you start feeding - before the the machine begins cutting, pick up on the opposite end of the workpiece; likewise, just before the piece exits the machine, pick up on the other end. Snipe won't be totally eliminated, but it'll be greatly reduced, and not visible without a micrometer. This is true at least on my cantancerous old, cast iron Parks, on the nearly antique, huge Solem I use, it was on the POS Makita I briefly owned, and I'll bet it'll work on whatever you have. Otherwise, add 5-inches to the length you want to end up with.
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Thanks. I was just wondering if the equipment itself had addressed it.
I also agree with Richard...but you can get close enough to sand away the snipe in SOME cases, depending in what you are making etc.
I got the two speed 13" Dewalt and that has made a huge difference..if your stock is flat....Dead flat, absolutely no twist, dead square are terms for tooling industry not for wood. That is why you get a lot of snipe as it moves around under the rollers...but the Delta has gotten rid of alot of it. As they have said, alot of the time it is better to waste the 5% to get 100% of what your after.
Edited 4/20/2007 10:10 pm ET by CoachB
Blew:
I may be tempting the fates here and risking the wrath of the woodworking gods; but I have yet to experience snipe on my Felder combination machine. I believe Felder owners,in general, do not experience snipe. Certainly, I have not yet had to cut off the ends of wood that I have jointed and subsequently planed.
If you are ever in the South Alabama area, I would be happy to substantiate the above with a demonstration!
Hastings
Not true in my experience Hastings. Felder owners do experience snipe on their machines.
Our old Felder spindle moulder sniped and, currently, our free standing Felder surface planer (jointer) and our two free standing 600 mm wide (I think) Felder thicknessers snipe. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
This has all the makings of a jihad! ;-)Here are the possibilities:1. I don't know how to recognize snipe (don't rule this out too quickly)
2. My Felder does not snipe, being new and well-adjusted
3. All Felders, properly adjusted do not snipe
4. All machines produce snipe and so refer to point 1. above.
5. Due to karma, or some other factor, any given machine may not produce snipe for a period of its working life.You have far more experience than I on this and so I defer to you on this.Regards,Hastings
Thank you, Hastings.
I am with you mate. I own Felder stand alones and I have never (to the best of my knowledge at least) experienced any snipe.
blew,
No snipe around my shop. A friend offered to help me get rid of mine, by chasing them into a bag that I was holding open, out in the field behind the shop. I must have stood there for 3 hrs, and not a one showed up. When I came back inside, my friend had already gone home. Next time, I'll leave him holding the bag.
On a more serious note, the snipe left by my old Parks is little enough that a couple strokes of the smoothing plane will get rid of it. I normally don't worry about the loss of thickness in hand planing afterwards, it's part of the process of eliminating machine tool marks, and falls well within my range of accuracy in workmanship, about equal to the thickness of those little marks on the tape measure. Holding up on the outboard ends as they enter and exit the machine helps too, as another poster noted.
Ray
Ray, if you have the persistence to try and catch snipes, then you are a better man than I am. They are illusive little devils. <g>
blew,
You are correct. They are as illusive (illusory) as they are elusive!
Delicious on toast point made from Lamello biscuits, tho...
Cheers,
Ray
We have a hunting season on snipe and other wading shore birds in the fall. Snipe are almost impossible to see in their habitat. When spooked, they take off like a blast, zig zagging in an erratic flight. They are one of the most difficult of all targets. Those that could bring them to market were known as "snipers". We use the term today as a sign of superb marksmanship.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
So that explains it. Youse guys shore is smart.
I sometimes eliminate snipe in this way. If I need several short cuts, I plane a long board, cut off the snipe and cut my pieces from what is left. However, you need flat stock to begin with. If you plane the first surface on a jointer, snipe will be minimal. If on the other hand, your long board is twisted, you are left with twisted pieces. I agree with the guy who suggested lifting on the ends of the board upon entry and exit. This will help also.
I've heard of something like that technique. Thanks.
I have the Dewalt 735 planer and have no problems with snipe. I do support the stock on the way out and I use the extension tables that are available for this machine. It also has a carrier lock mechanism. With the cost of wood, I can't imagine trimming several inches off the end of each piece.
I too have the 735 Dewalt. I get snipe from time to time. I am sure that all boards I run though have some but most are not bad. Just run boards end to end if you have a helper to take them off of the outfeed table. Most snipe I expreience is elimitated through scraping. sanding (random orbit) or the drum sander. Either way, it can be delt with if its not too bad.Cutting of 2 inches from each end is worth the time saved by using a thickness planer over any other dimentioning methods I know of.
I certainly don't run the amount of board feet through my planer that most people do here, but I was very surprised to hear that most remove 2-3 inches (or more as reported) from each end of a board. By the end of a project, that is not an insignificant (I am a computer programmer, double negatives are ok! :)) amount of wood.
Josh
I'm with Richard on this one. Snipe is something you live with - that's why doors and window frames are made with mortise and tenon joints (tenons hide the snipe, see) and traditionally came with horns........
OK, only joking, the tenons are done on the sniped ends, though and horns are there so the mortises don't split out at the ends (as well as providing protection in transport).
This is an area of contention where every tradesman (or professional woodworker) I know says the same - snipe can be reduced but it will never go away except in rare instances, Felder or no (and some of the people I know use modern heavy duty thicknessers against which Felders look like toys - and even they get snipe from time to time Whereas amateurs will spend hours, days even weeks trying to wring the last 1/2in out of that piece of timber, pro WWers are in the situation where time is moneyand it simply isn't worth the cost in time to get the last 5% of performance. So you compromise. The snipe can be taken out on the thickness sander, or with a hand plane, or it's where it won;t be seen - or you can saw it off. Where you compromise, however, can also depend on whether or not you're working pine or teak or cocobolo.
And for the record, I run a Casadei 16 x 9in planer/thicknesser, a modern machine with a long thicknesser bed and that snipes - not much, but it's there at least some of the time
Scrit
Scrittles, I can live with it as long as it is not so bad that some more has to be cut from the board AFTER thicknessing....
Maybe the pressure bar springs on your Casadei Fash Favore are ill (;)Philip Marcou
Nah. It just depends on the timber, For straight grained stuff it's minimal, but if the timber is a bit wild than I can feel it. Most of the time it sands out - or saws off (or becomes a tenon, or horn ;-) ).
For the record I am mechanically minded (anyone who spends any time running their own CNC rouiter has to be - or go bust paying engineering bills)
Scrit
Edited 4/20/2007 4:21 am by Scrit
That's all I wanted to know. Thank you.
I only have a 12-1/2" model but with all of the others who have machines that just can't be adjusted as perfectly as needed, or don't want to spend the time getting them that way, planing before cutting to length is probably going to be the most efficient way of dealing with it. Since the snipe will be in the same place anyway and it's not usually a huge amount of wood that is sniped, it shouldn't be a huge financial burden. Besides, some of the pieces are still useful.
On a thickness planer, snipe is a cut on the exiting end of a board that is a little deeper than the rest of the board. You'll find the size of the snipe is equal to the distance from the pressure bar/chip breaker to the blades. When the board first enters the planer, it is held and driven by an upper infeed roller, a lower infeed roller and the pressure bar. You have three points of contact. This holds the board solidly. As the board exits, it passes by these first three parts. On the outfeed side there is only the upper and lower rollers. Since these rollers are directly opposite each other, it creates a fulcrum. The pressure bar does just that, applies pressure as do the rollers. When the board is released from this pressure and held only by a fulcrum point, it often pops up into the blades. Cutting a little deeper into the end of the board.
Is there truly a cure for a machine that is built as it is? The problem is that we ask our planers to handle different species, sizes, lengths and degrees of surface roughness. It would be great if we could have several planers in the shop set up for specific uses. Instead, manufacturers try to choose settings that cover all the possible uses. This always makes for a compromise. Most stationary planers have a full range of adjustability on all these parts. Portable planers may have limited adjustments.
The bed rollers play a part. If they are high, it allows the work more range of movement. If they are too low, rough surfaces may hang up. Typically, bed rollers can be set between .001" and .005". The smaller the tolerance, the less it can add to snipe.
The infeed roller and chip breaker also play a part. The height of these are set in relation to the cutting circle. In order to set these, the knives have to be correctly set and the cutterhead has to be parallel to the table. Different planers may have different set ups as well as recommended settings. Often the chip breaker is set at .020" below the knife edge. The infeed and outfeed rollers are .040". The rollers are also under spring tension. Finding the right spring tension can help to control snipe. Too much tension and you can mark the work, too little and it may slip.
I think the release from the pressure of the front rollers is the biggest cause of snipe. That's why backing up the work with another board often eliminates it. Holding up on the board as it exits helps to counter act the jump, too. Spending a little time with the bed rollers and the roller pressure is the best place to fine tune for snipe control. I don't think you can completely eliminate snipe every time and still have a planer that does it's job.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I can see your point, and making those types of adjustments is simply going to be impractical. Thanks again for the explanation.
A long time ago, before the days of "lunch box" planers, I purchased an Hitachi 12" planer. This was the best I could afford at the time. It still works just fine, and I've never seen the need to replace it. But, way back then, I was sorely dissapointed to find out about its snipe. I called the salesman and he suggested to adjust the table rollers. Well, I'd already lowered them to a point below the table which had reduced the snipe to a minimum. So I then made the best adjustment I could: I accepted the 5" loss on every piece that went through it.
I have had some success with adjusting the in-feed & out-feed extensions on my Grizzly G1017 portable planer so that they are slightly higher than the main bed. I very seldom have snipe since I did this. I also use a Ridgid Miter-saw utility vehicle (Miter-saw portable stand) with adjustable rollers for infeed & out feed. This is a great improvement for those of you that have portable planers & need a good portable adjustable planer stand. You will need at least a piece of plywood to fasten to the stand to off set the planer to one side because the rollers ar off set for use with a CMS or SCMS.
Edited 4/21/2007 9:12 pm by OB
I guess I could include a picture.Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
I have a Delta 22-580 13" planer. Mine may be the exception but I have not experienced snipe with this machine after I learned to diligently follow two simple rules:
1) Engage the cutterhead lock on each and every pass.
2) Never take more than a 1/32 cut during the "dimensioning" speed passes.. and not more than 1/64 on the final, "finishing" speed passes.
And if the board is longer than 36" I support it (slight lift on the forward portion) as it comes through the final few inches.
I really can't say enought about this machine. It has a dead-on depth adjustment knob and it's zero blade clearance feature works every time.
I just ran 15 boards through it today for a cabinet I'm making and not one of them had any snipe.
Bill
I just live with snipe.
Mine snipes the end of the board 2.5 to 3"
I have other things to worry about.
Just me. Lol
Steve
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