So few posts from the folks that made our Knots REALLY great!
WillGeorge
| Posted in General Discussion on
I will leave it at the title of this post…
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Replies
Do you think it is because it is a controlled one-way system where no conversations are allowed to exist between the people commenting? I used to get a notice if someone had responded to a comment. Now there is just silence. There is no community that can be built. After a while, standing alone pissing in the river looses its charm.
Peter
Do you think it is because it is a controlled one-way system where no conversations are allowed to exist between the people commenting?
NO,, We could comment in the next message/comment..
The reader information aspect of this site is valuable -
We will build readership by continuing to help each other -
SA
Right on! I sure miss Mell..
Hello WillGeorge:
I feel that enough has been said about this new forum and I had resigned myself to living with it.
But, something intangible has been lost. I find myself checking in much more infrequently. Many of the familiar posters have gone or are not "visible". The sense of having a conversation has also been lost.
Maybe these things will return as the software evolves, but Knots no longer feels like the place that immediately caught my attention nearly 4 years ago, to the exclusion of the many other excellent woodworking forums. It's just another woodworking forum now.
Regards,
Hastings
Greetings Hastings!
I agree with your post. I am running into many friends (and a few foes!) from Knots over on SMC. My interests are gradually shifting to hand tools, and the group over at WoodNet is interesting, also.
Best to you!
-Jerry
Many of the familiar posters have gone or are not "visible". The sense of having a conversation has also been lost.
I agree,, My wife passed on in 1989... I still dream about her sometimes. WE NEVER forget our friends,, Even if just typing things!
Hello Will & All ,
It is like there is no sense of Community among the posters as in the past .
Some are still around but it is not as easy to follow them .
To those who felt new folks were scared off by the local regulars ,,I ask you where are those new folk now ?
Or is what they wanted scarce around these parts lately ?
50° and cloudy here in Paradise
regards ,dusty
To those who felt new folks were scared off by the local regulars ,,I ask you where are those new folk now ?
I have never seen us 'old folks' trying to make ANY young folks go away.. Very the opposite from that! I think we love new ideas.. As in we were once young...
Dusty,
Better watch out, I understand the weather police are out hunting. They'll get you fur too much coffee klatch'n! eh yup. Bob up in Kidderville better not mention that snow anymore.
It do seem somewhat sparseified round here these days. I think some will be here when our ancient an totally un-unique talents are once again called for. If not, theres always boxes to build and walnut (claro) to be 4 squared. That is if we haven't given up and gone fishin. -- after all, steelhead is only 7 months away.
....and I'm waiting for Ring (David) to ship over that slab of French Oak afor his Alzheimer's kicks in!
PS. 50° and cloudy here in Paradise
Take care,
The Boil
Perfect reply!
Knots has been jasoned and is now completely revzoned, I'm sure you can figure out the translation. I'm done here. See you all on other forums.
To Gina and Matt and David and the others that served us so well and are stuck with jason's droppings, Thank You for your service and I wish you the best.
Best regards to those that made this site what it once was, and a pox on those who destroyed it.
Don Green
Former proud Knots member and contributor.
I have also migrated to Sawmill Creek (SMC). To me, SMC has a better web site. I suspect there is more activity, but I don't really have any data to back that up. I haven't tried woodnet, but I will take a look now.
I often wonder who designed the Knots website; was it a techie or some suit who never visited a woodworking forum?
Bill
If you look under the posting... right before you can click to save/post it you can click the check box to "Notify me when new comments are posted" I think that the look and feel is all that is changed and we need the great posters to get with the learning curve.. Took me a few minutes to noodle out how to search. Becasue it moved for instance.
Rich
Rich
I don't think that's the
Rich
I don't think that's the problem as to why people are not coming to FWW much these days. Look around for someone in the process of building(not finished stuff for eye candy)who has posted pictures in a topic??. Try writing out a reply to a question and attaching photos to clarify the question a person has posted earlier.
On the same note, if you can post a photo in a reply.. maybe you could post some step by step instructions.
I think the decline in woodworking focused discussions and the increase in website difficulties messages is not an accident.
I wish I had a solution input but I feel like I planted corn to early in the season. I know the early bird gets the worm... I want corn and soon.
dan
testing 1 2 3 ... Seems to work fine...
Now to figure out how to tell you to do it..
Its
Lessthan p Greaterthan lessthan img src=" URL to Source" greaterthan Lessthan /p greaterthan
No spaces between anything.. and it seems to work like a web page..
View Image
OH and that is a stack of ash, 3" thick its grain wet with
DNA to show how I aligned the cut out for a crochet.
Hope this helps your guys and gals..
Rich
testing 1 2 3 ... Seems to work fine...
Now to figure out how to tell you to do it..
Its
Lessthan p Greaterthan lessthan img src=" URL to Source" greaterthan Lessthan /p greaterthan
No spaces between anything.. and it seems to work like a web page..
OH and that is a stack of ash, 3" thick its grain wet with
DNA to show how I aligned the cut out for a crochet.
Hope this helps your guys and gals..
Rich
Capt. Rich Clark
--DUCT Tape is the "force"... It has a Light side and a Dark side and it binds the universe together
(reply from RC)
OK Rich
Just what I thought might happen from looking at instructions posted in the past.
No picture visible and the instructions don't work for me and it looks like they didn't work for you??
No need to press this any further, I've tried with little
success and it feels like its time to move on.
I'm going back to the bench to do some woodworking..
adios
dan
later
dan
Hastings,
Like you, I tried to give the new forum a chance and didn't complain - I understand that change is inevitable. But I'm rapidly losing interest in the new format and don't check in with near the frequency I did before.
This is a real shame, as I liked (most of) the people I encountered here, got great advice, and was even able to dispense some myself from time to time. I'm a charter subscriber to the magazine and really believe in what the editors tried to do over the years. My woodworking skills grew up as a result of Fine Woodworking. The forum was a valuable addition to the magazine. Now it seems considerably less so.
I haven't visited Sawmill Creek yet, but probably will in the near future. I miss the continual stimulation I used to get by checking Knots at least once a day. Maybe I'll discover it again over there..
Zolton
Will, reluctantly, I have to agree with most of the comments. The only way I can explain it was that there was almost an intimacy to the old Knots that is totaly missing. It ws like visiting family, warts and all. Now, instead of visiting for a spell I find I knock on the door, peek through the windows but really feel like I'm being invited in.
Most of my adult life has been spent trying to manage change in the business environment so I'm aware of the difficulties facing management and end-users and I've tried to be patient and adjust but it isn't working for me.
And Rich, I've repeatly tried to be notiifed by checking the "Notify me" box and I've found it is very hit and miss, and mostly miss.
Doug
It ws like visiting family, warts and all. ....
GREAT reply!
Regarding the post notifications, it seems that i have the opposite problem to some other posters.
Once I enter a discussion I get an email FOR EVERY SINGLE POST made to the discussion.
I certainly agree that too many good people have vanished from here. How this helps taunton remains a mystery - at least to me.
The only way I can explain it was that there was almost an intimacy to the old Knots that is totaly missing..
Not sure anybody would come and hug me!..
But I hear,,,
there was almost an intimacy to the old Knots that is totaly missing.. YES! Old friends I miss!
Will,
There are some who are still here that will always give you a hug! Or at least a big smile.
How are those China Dolls doin? Bout time to make them some chests to go at the bottom of those beds.
BB
I could not agree more about the shortcomings of the new Knots format. It's unwieldy and ugly. The typography and layout are pitiful. Whoever at FWW thought this one up should give it a rethink -- not only is it bad for Knots it also has turned me off to FWW. The taste that the magazine embodied is not in evidence.
While I agree that some folks, posts from whom I enjoyed reading, have left. But, you have to wonder why they left, as well. Were they personally insulted that Taunton chose not to continue spending $thousands on a service and software they couldn't tailor to the needs of the site? Certainly, humans are resistant to change, and often don't appreciate other people's realities. Also, while user interfaces are very important, even more important are the attitudes of those participating on a forum. If folks have a negative attitude becuase of the different interface, that shows in the level and type of responses they make. Thus, I think the reduction in the level of "intimacy" that was present on the old Knots is more a matter of attitude than interface. If we all choose to have a positive attitude, combined with some patience regarding upgrades, I believe the "intimacy" will be re-kindled.
Part of the problem, in my view, is that many aren't taking the time to actually understand how the new software works (excluding aspects of it that aren't working well). Like on the old software, for example, many "reply" to the last post being displayed, rather than replying to the actual post to which their response is directed.
Additionally, there are now a couple of levels of response notifications. One can subscribe to the thread, resulting in getting notifications of all posts in the thread, or simply enable getting responses to one's own posts by editing your forum profile. Of course, the latter doesn't work if the person responding doesn't click reply under your post, instead of the last post in the thread. I get lots of notifications of responses that were actually intended for the posts of others. Response notifications under the old software had the same failing.
The other woodworking forums have similar disparities of interfaces compared to the old Knots software, but actually work similarly to this software at a fundamental level. So, again, one has to wonder about the reason for some folks choosing to leave Knots.
There have also been multiple threads explaining how to include images within a reply, pending software changes by Taunton to allow image uploads with replies in the same manner as with original posts. The work-around is certainly less convenient than direct uploads, but it works if folks are willing to go to the effort.
The Taunton technical staff seems to be dragging their feet on making bug fixes and changes to the new software. But, that, too, may be a matter of how Taunton is allocating resources based on financial realities.
I've really been trying to
I've really been trying to get used to this format... But I have to say Knots has lost some of what got me here in the first place.
The forum execution here just isn't as well done as some of the other sites I visit. The color scheme is poor, the screen is fairly cluttered... Posting pictures is more difficult...
In the end I'll give it more time. Taunton really hasn't made any noticable changes (at least to me).
I have watched this forum as a long-time reader, occasional poster. It's imminent demise as a viable and lively exchange is the result of either of two things;
Unintended - The folks at Taunton made a terrible mistake and are unable and/or unwilling to correct it. Whether they are aware of the mistake is not as significant as to whether they choose to do anything about it. This is pretty unlikely in this day of sophisticated web knowledge and action, but I thought I would include this position as an out for anyone offended by my characterization of the formerly benevolent provider.
Intended - Everything that has happened is the result of careful planning and skillful implementation. The Taunton IT people will get bonuses, and the world is fine.
The answer is in their metrics - the measure of the success of the site in advertising clicks, page change, etc. This is something participants will never know, since the participants have entirely different motives for site usage than does Taunton.
Despite the metrics, all open forum sites go thru a sort of dialectic, and Taunton hastened the final evolution of Knots with the change. Open forums tend to become dominated by a small group of heavy users that unintentionally drive off casual and first time users with their folksy familiarity. This is not good for 'business' - the reason for the forum. This site definitely had a color and flavor, and you either fit in or you didn't. Sort of like high school.
My money is on the Intended theory. All that has occurred is precisely what was intended. Beyond that, since the site is so difficult to use in a world of increasing user friendliness and savvy participants, the intention is to kill the site by driving away its purposefulness/profitability in order to justify pulling the plug.
It would interesting to badger Taunton a bit to post their metrics to see what is really going on. But judging by their level of concern and involvement, that will never happen.
So, I'd like to propose a pool for how long you think the site will last. A month? 6 months? We might as well make it interesting, eh? I have been watching with that same gruesome gotta-look-at-the-car-wreck curiosity every few days. While the complaint posts have predictably slowed, participation is way down, heavy users are moving or not taking the trouble to post or respond.
Heck, I don't even know what the weather is like in *___*___'s neighborhood, and that was always a given.
I think you are dead right.....Things just don't add up.
You are absolutely right. I stated my opinion that this was an intentional kill right when the change was occurring. We are all, basically, at the funeral for the Knots community as we speak. How long the wake will last is anybody's guess, but I imagine it won't be long. As soon as nobody else walks up to view the casket, the lights will go out, and that will be that.
It's sad and unfortunate, but just another casualty of the economic times....just like my own business.
For those of you who I "met" here, it has been an enjoyable run. I hope to see you at other forums in the future. For many of you with anonymous screen names, I will have no idea who you are at other forums.....make sure you wave a hand and say hello. I'm always just Jeff Heath, so I'm easy to find.
On another topic, I hope the forum lasts at least a little while longer, as I have a few items still for sale in the classified section.....ha ha ha.
A fond farewell,
Jeff
If Taunton was facing high costs associated with high levels of bandwidth usage, it's not difficult to figure out what part of their site generates the most bandwidth. If the forums were the culprit and a relatively small number of forum participants were paid subscribers, one could expect the kind of changes that were made here. I realize that's a lot of "if" but I would expect some serious effort at fixing the problems if it was the result of a software development silo or something. I don't see any evidence of anyone trying to fix anything.
I'm not complaining, I can take my marbles elsewhere to play. I didn't subscribe and it's unlikely I ever would so I guess I shouldn't be surprised the welcome mat disappeared.
See you around, where ever.
Ralph, You have more experience with this sort of thing than a lot of us. I did a bit of searching on the Drupal software and saw some comments that it is a pretty decent piece of software but the learning curve for the tech folks is very steep.
And in looking t a lot of other sites, certainly the former Knots was excellent, but to say that any of the others that a out there now are better is not true. Most are more mature, but I have yet to see any that gave the same feature as Knots did.
I certainly hope Taunton is putting its resources to the magazines first. I would hate to see the magazine(s) suffer for the discussion forums.
Don
When I first came to this site the forum was easy to search and to understand, even as a newcomer. Now it's this mixed up, uneventfully mundane forum. It's more difficult to navigate and to learn from, than the previous forum, possibly due to the loss of "posters," however more likely due to the removal of something that worked well and replacing it with something that doesn't work so well. It doesn't seem to be improving as time goes by either.
I'm trying to stick with it, however it's a bit frustrating.
I don't get notified when I check the box. My picture has been missing for a while, however I may have gotten it back. I kept messing with it so I'll know if it worked when I post this comment.
Jim
Remember, you need to enable response notifications in your profile, as described in item #2 of the "progress" panel on the right side of the screen. Otherwise, checking the box in the reply doesn't do anything.
Well Will, there is still a lot of good information flowing through Knots. You can't make people be here.
And, maybe if they cared as much about you as you do about them, they would have sent you a private note telling you where to meet up again.
You goto move forward.
How about that tigerwood you have. I picked up 80 bf of 5/4 last week for my main bathroom floor. There was one stick there 12 ft X 16 inches. I didn't need it, but it got loaded. Damn nice wood it is, damn hard on the back also.
Don
People's perceptions ARE
People's perceptions ARE reality. Looking at the "last post" date on so many threads - 1 day isn't all that common. 1 week+ is more common. I stop by maybe weekly now, and there isn't much new. The activity just isn't here, and it feeds on itself, for whatever reason.
But a lot of the old threads often digressed ad nauseum. Some liked that "coffee club" approach. In the new world, most discussions are quite to the point, minimal digression.
Each has its merits.
Don
I for one come here MUCH less frequently. It just isn't worth the hassle of navigating this site. Plus the "feel" that the new site has is just really lacking. I don't know what the cost difference is, or even if FWW cares about the traffic or not, but clearly the change has not been positive. I think they have to decide what it is that they want because people are obviously leaving this site in droves. Ironically, for all the complaining I have done about the magazine and its content in the past, I think that is improving, the website, not so much.
I'm taking care of my wood
I'm taking care of my wood jones at other forums. One in particular covers boat building, CNC, hand carving, hand tools, etc.
Someone recently posted a narrative (with pictures) of a gorgeous figured maple electric guitar project, and posted sound files, too. That thread (at last check) had 16,207 views...and in 250 replies, no one has posted government conspiracy theories, tool snobbery or troll-ish behavior.
It is a hard knock to Taunton management - woodworking encompasses much more that Mission / A & C / Stickly / Maloof / Krenov furniture, tool shootouts, and how-to-boil-water woodworking topics. A home made guitar - of superb craft, incidentally - generated 16,000 views; none of those views were on Taunton's forum, and none of those views were exposed to Taunton's products.
And they use vBulletin to power their site...which is easy to navigate, view 'n manage both posts and pictures....
One can't help but wonder why
One can't help but wonder why forums run by seemingly less well-bankrolled concerns are able to maintain their robustness, use what appears to me to be good software, have plenty of server capacity to accommodate multiple topics, photo, video, sound postings, etc. - very vibrant, broad, and deep woodworking forums.
This whole "it's too expensive" explanation doesn't make sense at all.
The whole Web hosting service paradigm has changed dramatically during the last few years. There are now hosting services that offer "unlimited" storage and "unlimited" bandwidth at fairly nominal rates. Previously, more than a couple of hands-full of megabytes of storage and a gigabyte or two of bandwidth cost dearly. One photography forum I used to participate on, for example, suddenly found itself racking up bandwidth charges of $2,000-$3,000 per month under their old-paradigm contract. Since the contract with Mzinga was initiated back in that time period, I'm guessing the contract had the old-style rates for both storage (e.g. for uploaded photos) and bandwidth (e.g. users viewing said photos).
Many other forums use the vBulletin software, which is excellent for stand-alone forums. But, like Mzinga, it's proprietary, so it's difficult to make substantive changes or integrate it with other site software and features.
I'm not new to woodworking
I'm not new to woodworking but I am new to chatting on-line about it and to this site. I also tried SMC but haven't made a post there yet.
.
The biggest disappointment I've experienced with this site is when I post something and then get no response, nothing, just silence. One posts with the hope of having meaningful exchange with peers. The silence is a let down and an empty feeling which causes one to think about moving on. I'm not sure whether there aren't enough readers or people just aren't interested in what I have to say.
.
I'm getting a complex.
BD
Don't get a complex. This
BD
Don't get a complex. This place is confusing right now. For the fun of it, I tried to find your posts to reply to one of them so you "would not feel lost in cyber space" too long. I can't even figure out how to get that done without getting frustrated. It has to get better than it is right now.
In the mean time, if you enjoy period pieces there is a site/forum called MLW or Major League Woodworking. The guy running the site is Tommy MacDonald. Just take a look at him and his podcasts as he builds a bombe sec/desk. The forum is nice and the theme is woodwork not chatting about subjects unrealated to the thread topic(thread departure).
If I figure out how to find posts by an individual, I'll check you out.
later
dan
b,
I see you are disappointed that you haven't been responded to. OK. I just fixed that. I have responded to you.
Things were much different under the old Knots system. There were a lot more participants, and they participated a lot more. I don't think that many posts went unanswered. The new format is a problem for "continuity" in following a thread.
There was a lot more "give and take" under the old system. I don't think that FWW is going to go back to the old system, so we just live with the new one, or go elsewhere.
I recommend you stick around and give it a try. Do more postings. Read a bunch, and get the feel of the place. Maybe your posts are not being answered because they are not in the zeitgeist of this place called Knots. Don't take it personally.
I once had a thread in Knots which got up to over 6000 posts. I think the next highest is around 300. It used to be that MANY threads went over a hundred. Things have changed.
Have fun.
Mel
Thanks, I feel better now.
I knew there was big trouble in river city when the new system is marked beta after all the hype about how it would be so great and then all the delays. This was a poorly planned and executed change. They tried to sell it as as new and better and it turned out only to be new and terrible. Certainly change is inevitable but unless it is for the better, it is just change for some other reason; most likely economical in nature. I think this is just part of the downward evolution of Taunton's electronic venture and maybe even the printed one. I see on the home page they are headlining something about either the Kindle or iPad. They can't make this work so why would we think they can do an eMagazine unless either Amazon or Apple does the work? I'm using SMC, LJs, and the WoodNet forums. There has always been a lot less ego on them and although they vary in content, there are a lot of great people, ideas, and commentary that is better than this redesign.
The previous post referred to the FWW headline about the iPad. The irony is that the iPad does not run Flash. Steve Jobs made a lot of nasty remarks about Adobe (most of them justified).
So we have a magazine that produces Flash videos praising a device which does not play them :-)
Will - I'm hurt, offended and
Will - I'm hurt, offended and depressed.
Your title says it all; "the folks that made Knots Really Great."
I've been posting in the new format on a regular basis and I guess that you do't consider me one of those who made it "Really Great". Sob. Sob. :-)
Hiya Will,
Got a new shooting board and it doubles as a cool ramp for the laptop. It's square to the fence too. LOL
I've been swamped this winter. Did a bunch of millwork in the house. Did I say Ash?
Think it's time to get this place goin don't you?
Regards,
Hiya Bob ,
Did you say Ash ? was it local , kd or ad or is it adhd ?
Hows those Acorns hanging ?
42°and cloudy here in Paradise
regards , dusty
I kind of like what the new system brings in a way. I am absolutely digusted with the this aqua color as I have to squint to read it... the post are much harder to follow and I can't figure out how to post a picture mid-thread which simply translates to:
More time in the shop with less time talking about it and more time doing it. Getting much done down there! So.. does that make me an optimist.. forum terrorist or just the village idiot I have always been? ha.. ha...
Off to the shop as I speak...
Hey old man,
Yes, local ash and some really pretty stuff too. A guy was building a pick-up truck body and had a lot of 4"T x 7"W x 12'L billets of it, a good amount of them q-sawn. Had them sawn into 5/4 boards mostly.
Since I had torn out a wall, impulsive as I am, :-) I decided it would be just the thing to trim everything out with. Came up with a finish recipe and it looks just like red oak, but some has a lot more figure. A few more embellishments (read fixes, coverups, features, et al) and final sanding and we're ready to put the finish one.
Now I know why you make so much money! Ha Ha Ha
15 degrees F on the Frost Patch in NH.
Regards,
I appreciate that, but maybe you're looking out for your interests just a little bit more. I mean you shouldn't be asking people to come down here and pay the dues on something they paid, it still ain't good enough, I mean you think that's right? I mean maybe you're doing your job but why you gotta stop me from doing mine? Cause if you're willing to go through all the battling you got to go through to get where you want to get, who's got the right to stop you? I mean maybe some of you guys got something you never finished, something you really want to do, something you never said to someone, something... and you're told no, even after you paid your dues? Who's got the right to tell you that, who? Nobody! It's your right to listen to your gut, it ain't nobody's right to say no after you earned the right to be where you want to be and do what you want to do!... You know, the older I get the more things I gotta leave behind, that's life. The only thing I'm asking you guys to leave on the table... is what's right.
Okay. It's official...I am
Okay. It's official...I am now on the Sawmill Creek forum, using my real name (Joe Ullrich) as you must do on that site. I do not post this to rub it in or anything. Rather, I post this so that the people in charge of this site have some sort of measuring stick of those who have left for other forums (or is it fora?) I appreciate all of the help that I have received here, and it has been a lot of fun. I suspect that FWW either doesn't care if this forum dies, or they are killing it on purpose. Either way, they are doing a pretty good job of it.
I rise a glass to the future and those of us who stay to hopefully breathe new life into this forum where there will be new blood to make this beta knots a good place to cyber-be.
I recognize that it needs work and in some respects a lot of it - but there is progress being made and I look forward to more and even times where there is stagnation on said progress.
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