Is everyone liking the new Forums? I for one do not like the removal of threads capriciously by sysops who for one reason or another dont like our topic and feel the need to censor. We are not children and our comments are not lewd. If there is a disagreement WE shold be allowed to work it out and not get a “This discussion does not exist” message when logging in to here. I know this is the new state of American freedom but in here? Thanks and aloha, mike
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It's a woodworking forum, not politics or whatever other stuff you argue. Does it make sense to talk woodworking at a politics forum?
That was my point exactly and we were guiding the message back to there when -poof- it all disappeared without explanation. We are adults and should be able to manage our own affairs without someone interfering. I DO discuss woodworking and the importance of establishing our own parameters for the forum is important for ALL the members even with the occaisional side chatter. Its after all how we keep decorum going in our offline lives also-by talking about it. aloha, mike
We are adults and should be able to manage our own affairs without someone interfering
I have no idea what you are talking it and don't really care, BUT you do post here under rules you agreed to. This is Taunton's site. They can run it the way they want and most especially, to keep things civil.Gretchen
I think this thread should cease to exist.
Cheers. Walker1
<I have no idea what you are talking it and don't really care>ah, my point is made again....... aloha, mike
LOL, sometimes I wish the politicians would talk woodworking. Might be a lot less traumatic on all of us in the long run?
Not to be terribly picky here, but we are playing with THEIR toy. I'm all for freedom of expression, but I also act differently in someone else's house than mine. (Nobody hears me in mine. :-)
< we are playing with THEIR toy>without us its nothing......and, this is America...used to be any way. aloha, mike
Tell them you want a refund of your Knots membership dues.
Walker1
Edited 9/5/2005 6:22 pm ET by Walker1
Mike I agree with you, but, I also know why they do it. It got really ugly in here a year or so ago. Looks like a bunch of folks left, I know I did for quite a while. It got where there was no line between woodworking and politics. I personally like to debate issues, but I also like woodworking, and that's the point of this forum. I don't like having a "big brother" watching what I say, but if everybody leaves because the liberals and conservatives can't get along for a common "cause" then we loose this venue.
Folks,
Surely if the politicians stick to the cafe there should be no problem. Anything can be said, and blamed on Jim Beam.Philip Marcou
Hey, Philip, excue me while I derail the string!
Have you ever made chairs? Rockers? The chat about migrating rockers stirred up a latent interest, and I think I'm gonna have a go! Not a Kiwi tradition, as it is in the US, but Trubridge has been playing around with things that rock (and probably roll) ... maybe there's a markey for $5,000 art rockers?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
No worries Malcolm, as long as you make them out of Oak!
No, I have not had the urge to make rockers as such.
When I was at the Auckland Wood Expo recently there was a chap there with Maloof like rockers made from superb walnut and other exotically figured timbers fro N.Z. His prices ranged from $1200 to $7500- he was in a depressed state-no sales or interest. He was even less impressed when I said he was giving away unique timbers and very good workmanship....
Now a good rocking HORSE-that's another thing altogether. I think there are folk making these here, though.
How about a Rocking Sheep? (you know, new thinking , outside the square etc,<g> )
Or what about a Mechanised Migrating Rocker, with forward and reverse controls, for special export to the States?Philip Marcou
Malcom, I have made rockers. Koa rockers with all kinds of detail custom fit to the customer are not a profitable thing as one offs. If you make a few of them and can wait for the sales you might be able to fend off starvation until you get famous for it. Its a tough row to hoe and dont quit your day job......my 2¢. aloha, mike
Kia Ora Mike
So what do you make that does make money? I'm a recreational studio furniture maker, but interested in an 'exit strategy' for when I might be more than that!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
What makes money? Put on your thinking cap and go there. Lots of nice jewelry boxes ready to sell the week before Thanksgiving-gift shops, tourist traps, etc. Nice wood items for wholesale distribution (ideas needed of course) are always good. Demilune (half round) hall tables of outrageous materials if you have gallery access. And of course, whoring yourself out to construction/contractors as a shop support keeps money coming in.
Malcom, I just went to your website. Very nice work you should have no trouble making a transition to your next career. I have been a candidate for US Congress myself and can appreciate the calming effect of woodworking. Aloha, mike
Mike
For about 6 years I did ONCE make a living as a bespoke furniture maker (in the UK), and may try to again if I'm spared!
I'm always curious about what makes people money - lots of us can make cool stuff, but only some of us make a living! I'm always fascinated by why!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm, I hope you get the chance. Your work is excellent.Making money is an odd thing for some people. Some aren't as diligent about their real costs as they should be before they bid. Some aren't as diligent about their work habits as they need to be to accomplish on time and as we know time is no friend of finances. Its the one thing time won't fix. You can naively lose money occaisionally but learning is imperative on making a living.
I know working class guys with great skill who have an issue with charging what it takes to make it in their craft. In the end their materials get paid for, the landlord gets paid, usually the help gets paid and the most important people, their own families, go wanting. It causes divorce, anguish and host of other things that we all know about. I know this because I have done it. I now make a living, have a savings, own my house and machinery and am working on the retirement plan while I have a kid in college. Life can be good as a craftsman-its up to you. aloha, mike
Thanks Mike
WillGeorge is right, of course, it's a silly question - 'how do you make money?' - we all do it differently!
It's a subject that FWW has looked at - sort of - in the past, and it has - again, sort of - been thrashed around here on knots in the past.
It is interesting tho, eh? Some people in the 'studio furniture' space seem to try to be good at everything, and do on-demand one-offs. Some pick an object or line of objects and concentrate on that one skill set. There seem, for example, to be a number of rocking chair makers who do little else, and have long wait lists, and at several thousand dollars each, presumeably make money.
In the UK, I operated a bespoke business (one-offs, 'made to fit') that took on anything from church and shop fitting to tables and chairs ... and also made a signature line of small treasure and display cases. Looking back, I think I should have focussed on boxes, and tried to build a reputation, allowing me to grow demand and raise prices.
If I start a commercial operation again, that's what I think I'll do. I'm looking for something to specilise in ... something for which there will be consistent demand, at good prices.http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcom, just as an aside, James Krenov, who is revered as a master around the world admits he never made it in woodworking. First, he married well and his wife supported his habit and then he finally did really well writing books about woodworking and thereby establishing his "style" to a wider audience. I find this interesting and it explains the woodworking school thing that some people in the biz do now. I do mostly contract kitchen and stairbuilding for wealthy Maui homeowners and occaisionally get to make a nice piece of furniture. Its a life....... aloha, mike
The Krenov story is interesting, eh. When you look at his books and articles, and read about how he works, there's no evidence of 'commercial speed', or batch work.
Maloof - by contrast - has a 'factory' (five assistants, best heavy-duty gear, consistent production techniques), and seems to operate at a commercial pace.
I've always thought in production terms, and do many of the standard woodworking operations the same way, whatever I'm making. And although I'm setting up a recreational shop, my gear is production-capable (MiniMax Euro slider, MiniMax planer/thicknesser, big Mak SCMS ...).
Cheers
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Some aren't as diligent about their real costs as they should be before they bid. YEP! I have four children.. I still LOVE EM' ALOT! anyway!
<Some aren't as diligent about their real costs as they should be before they bid.YEP! I have four children.. I still LOVE EM' ALOT! anyway!>snort!! aloha, mike
I would like to see some pictures of your work.Rick
Couple of recent pieces - made for auction at a fundraiser.
http://www.macpherson.co.nz/auction_items.html
This weekend - if I get time - I'll photograph a couple of the pieces around the house! Been meaning to for some time.
Cheers
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Very nice work! Here is one of my latest ,you might have seen it in the Gallery.Thanks for the pics.Rick
So what do you make that does make money? LOL... LOL...I have been workin' since I was about 15.. I never went Hungry.. BUT Never made Money!
Reading this thread, one thing bothers me.
Why is it only controversy that gets muted?
I've seen perfectly good threads go south
while people talk about waning eyesight or
something completely off topic and better
suited for offline or private discussion.
Personally, I don't think anything should
be censored, but at the same time, this is
probably the last place I would expect ####left vs right battle to occur. Especially
when there are so many other forums out
there geared towards just that.
Why can't we get a couple user-moderators,
delete the clear violations and preserve
the rest?
<Why can't we get a couple user-moderators,
delete the clear violations and preserve
the rest?>Hear hear!
Self governance threatens some people but it is the only responsible solution.
aloha, mike
"I've seen perfectly good threads go south while people talk about waning eyesight or something completely off topic...." This generally happens when the original topic has been pretty much exhausted and the participants get interested in something else that's come up. IMHO, it doesn't cause any harm and tends to build the sense of community. It's pretty easy to tell when all the relevant stuff has been said and the thread's off in another direction. If you're not interested in the new "OT" stuff, it's easy to just skip over the thread.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
(1) It's not a "new forum." The main thing that changed was the mechanical guts of the registration.
(2) Have threads actually been deleted? I know several have been moved to the Cafe when they were non-woodworking subjects. Was not aware any had been deleted.
(2b) 99.9% of the time we can work through our differences with a minimum of bloodshed. However, there have been occasions in the past when a member has consistently gone way over the line and been censored.
(2c) Remember, you are in Taunton's house and they pay big bucks for this little playground. It is totally their prerogative to set standards and enforce them, and while we certainly can whine about it, we really have no right to insist that they change something. Based on my experience at other WWing forums, I'd say they are amazingly tolerant.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
mikegagne,
I probably agree with you on lots of political issues, but Knots has nothing to do with the current state of American freedoms! Knots has a right to make sure discussion here comply with what they see as part of their corporate image. Actually, the Taunton folks were pretty generous to create a place for political rants (which I do not attend).
Keep in mind also that Taunton is not forcing onerous policies on a caucus of disgruntled members. Quite the opposite, they usually are responding to members' comments about inappropriate posts.
In these cases, I always like to make an analogy between Knots and a real-world venue. Imagine if you went to a woodworking show, and instead of talking about tools, you started walking up and down the booths provoking political discussions. If the exhibitors complained, and the management asked you to stop, would you call that censorship? I don't think so. Lots of exhibitors might agree with your views, but they would say that's not the place for it. They'd say you should go down the street, where the local town meeting is in session. Even there, they would expect you to stick to the subject being debated that day!
Edited 9/9/2005 8:02 am ET by MatthewSchenker
mike
When you are invited to someone's house, do you walk in with muddy boots, sit down on the furniture with greasy pants, and plop your feet up on the nearest table. We are all guests here, free of charge. A while back, Taunton made it perfectly clear to all that off topic discussions just wouldn't be permitted, and would be either moved to the hidden cafe, or scrapped all together. It really makes me laugh that some people don't seem to get this concept.
I was an advocate of hiding the cafe behind closed doors, because I really don't like to be preached to about ANYTHING. If we're "working out" a better way to join side rails to the back legs of chairs, I doubt that sysops will move or delete the post. But, when the topic of discussion gets political, which MANY people here like to do, then it should get tossed into the burn pile.
If you don't like the restrictions, perhaps you should find a new sandbox to play in.
Jeff
BTW, that table out of Koa and purpleheart you showed was very beautiful.
<If you don't like the restrictions, perhaps you should find a new sandbox to play in.>Jeff, that was my point, that we should police our own discussions which was all I was suggesting and trying to get people to accept that it was not practical or acceptable to make political remarks. I believe we should police ourselves but when I kept getting "message notification from Knots" in my email and the topic had a heading "This discussion does not exist" when I clicked the email link I felt that I had been at least used by the sysop in charge. Maybe they could have sent a warning out to the participants or just deleted the offending messages rather than remove the topic completely. WE are adults and the forum does not exist without us. It isnt just Taunton's sandbox here. And what do they do without sand in it? Its high handed and unnecessary in my view and needs a new protocol.Thankyou for the compliment on the Kamani and purpleheart piece. aloha, mike
Mike, what does one have to do/say to get a msg saying that "this topic does not exist"? I have never got one.
I thought that that was the purpose of the cafe-for folk to talk b/s, politics and related stuff?
Philip Marcou
Edited 9/10/2005 2:10 am ET by philip
Philip, that message was in Knots not the Cafe. I dont care for the cafe at all but I got 4 messages from Knots about the discussion and got the "This discussion does not exist" message when I got here. Its too much like our government now and unnerved me. Just me i guess. aloha, mike
Mike, I really think you're just encountering some kind of software glitch here. If you got an email notification that someone posted in a particular discussion (per your preference settings), then obviously the discussion does exist. Please write to Mark at [email protected] and explain what's happening so he can troubleshoot and fix it.
BTW, the Cafe is part of Knots, just as the Tavern is part of Breaktime.
Ah! A question here. Do you have access to the Cafe? (i.e.g, did you ask to be given access, so that the Cafe appears on your folder-list when you log in??). I have an idea of what might have happened, but need to answer to that question to decide if the idea has merit.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I see the cafe in my list but only went there once. It reminds me of an aol chatroom..... I will find the email and post a screen shot of the "This topic does not exist" message. As I mentioned it seemed a little Twilight Zone ish. aloha, mike
mike
Perhaps I misunderstood your post a bit. I was under the impression that you were totally against the censorship that sysop is invoking on this site.
Personally, I have never gotten the "this topic does not exist" heading, so I can't comment on why it is happening to you.
Maybe it's my military upbringing, but I've always abided by the "rules of the house" when it comes to parties, forums, hockey games, fights, etc..... I feel they have the right, since they're providing us with this great forum free of charge. I know my work has improved greatly by my participation here, and would hope I've helped a few along the way.
When I run into a post that has a bit of a rant, or any sort of preaching involved in it, I simply exit it in discust.
Jeff
Jeff, I am against the removal of the topic completely, the censoring of an out of control posting is okay and as in the past, they should just tell us that a post has been removed. It is too Twilight Zone like otherwise. I agree with you about the enhancement of our work through this forum. Thanks for the reply. aloha, mike
Maybe I caused it... I say Dang ALOT...
<Maybe I caused it... I say Dang ALOT...>its the gawl dang they hate..... ;-) aloha, mike
Personally, I have no problem with the moderation in this forum. I come here for information and advice and conversation about woodworking. The few times I did venture into the Cafe, I was out again pretty damn quick. If I wanted to read the same old Dem vs Repub crap, I'd pick up a newspaper.
< wanted to read the same old Dem vs Repub crap, I'd pick up a newspaper.>hear hear......or turn on the tv. Thats not what we want here..... aloha, mike
Get use to capitalism - he who has the gold makes the rules. This forum is benefit to woodworkers: owned, operated, and paid for by someone else - get use to it but don't complain or look a gift horse in the mouth!
<get use to it but don't complain or look a gift horse in the mouth!>I refuse to be a wimp and would rather leave that to others......be my guest however. The gift, as you put it, is the ability (necessity) to speak (write) the truth as we see it. I didnt harangue anyone and played by the rules. I will continue to speak out as I need to. aloha, mike
look a gift horse in the mouth.... I DID THAT AND got bit on the nose!
Will,consider yourself lucky-you could have got kinked in the nunts.Philip Marcou
mike,
I'll say again that on larger political issues you and I probably agree on a lot of things.However, your reactions here are more appropriate to a state or federal government action, not the decision of a private organization like Taunton. I think your statements are a bit misplaced when you say that this forum is here to give you "the ability (necessity) to speak (write) the truth as we see it."If this were the federal or state government telling you what you could print in a newspaper or a magazine, you would have a strong case. But this is Taunton's domain -- it's owned, designed, and maintained by them. And I'll remind you again that the rules of the forum are there not only because Taunton people like them, but also because most members want politics and bickering to be kept separate from woodworking. Hey, I used to be one of the bickering parties, but I have since opted out of the Cafe. I'm happy I did, and I'm happy Taunton separated the Cafe from the rest of the forum!Bottom line: if Taunton did not spend the money to keep Knots running, there would be no forum. You have the option of playing by the rules envisioned by the creators (and benefactors) of Knots, or getting out.
Matthew, I dont believe I have broken the rules. And if someone in here gives someone bad advice on how to do/make/finish something, they get reamed for it and should. Now what rules does that break? And why is it wrong? Am I lying? I saw fit to say (write) this....is someone going to get their panties in a knot and report me? I doubt it...... I dont believe that Taunton gives a flying splinter as long as decorum is maintained.
I do believe someone could get upset at what I just wrote and appeal to the sysop to censor this and then get the topic deleted as I have seen already. Is Taunton protecting itself or its upset member of that happens? and does it really matter. I think, again, we are adults and should govern ourselves. It behooves us to do so in order to preserve the orderly exchange and discourse. THAT is what I am saying....... aloha, mike
Mike,
In my view, as long as the topic is about woodworking, and as long as people are still being constructive, Taunton tends to have a hands-off approach. The only time I have seen them intervene is when the discussion turns political, or when people start getting personal or insulting. I'm not sure there are hard-and-fast rules here. Someone is watching the discussions and using his/her judgement to determine when things have gotten out of hand. These are usually people with other editorial tasks at Fine Woodworking, and I have to assume the job of monitoring Knots is less than enjoyable. I run the Festool Owners Group over on Yahoo, and my least favorite part of that is having to intervene when people act inappropriately.I don't know what you wrote exactly, but perhaps you were upsetting people and did not realize it? Is there a way for you to recall the actual text you used that you feel was censored?
Edited 9/13/2005 8:33 am ET by MatthewSchenker
<I don't know what you wrote exactly, but perhaps you were upsetting people and did not realize it? Is there a way for you to recall the actual text you used that you feel was censored?>I dont believe I was censored. Another member was and we all lost out on the thread. I asked that we stick to woodworking, albeit maybe a little indelicately and had 4 responses from members but no thread when I logged in. I have no complaint other than we should at least be allowed to govern ourselves.... aloha, mike
I have been watching this thread from afar, and I am writing now to say that I agree with the main points you have raised and the spirit of your intent. In the past I have often found myself offering these same arguments. I too have found posts deleted and entire threads removed for absolutely no discernible reason, at least none that I could see; and certainly, none violated the so-called "House Rules."You used the word capricious (in your first post) to describe these actions, and that is same word I would choose. If the editorial overseer gets out of the wrong side of bed one morning, he can hit the delete key -- and there is absolutely no avenue of appeal. It's just gone, and that's it.I think what bothers me most is the willingness of so many to meekly accept all this --i.e. "it's Taunton's toy and they get to decided how and when we play with it." To me, that's like the old saw from the Vietnam era -- "love it or leave it."No, I think all of us have an obligation to speak out and question the stupidities and injustices -- big and small -- we encounter within those institutions we care about. And that includes Knots, and how it is managed. Finally, I don't think Taunton has given nearly enough thought to how these policies affect the composition of the Knots audience. In the last year or so, I think Knots has lost a whole cadre of professional woodworkers. These were thoughtful, opinionated people, and it is my theory they stopped around to chew on politics and other controversial issues as a respite from a hard day in the shop. While here, they would dip into the various wwing threads that piqued their interest and offer us the benefit of their experience and knowledge.Well, the hobbyists and newcomers screamed and hollered that politics and wwing shouldn't coexist, and Taunton listened. They moved the Cafe behind a curtain, and apparently decided to wield a heavy hand in removing any thread or post that could conceivably offend somebody. And that includes Taunton -- since they have removed posts critical of them.This place is not nearly as interesting as it was a year or two ago. And without the cadre I mentioned above, many of the wwing threads now have a quality about them of the blind leading the blind.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
No, I think all of us have an obligation to speak out and question the stupidities and injustices -- big and small -- we encounter within those institutions we care about. And that includes Knots, and how it is managed.Nikkiwood, thought provoking post-thank you. aloha, mike
Mike, my 50cents worth on this is that I can't see the need for any censorship as such, apart from re-routing cafe stuff to the cafe. If people write offensive stuff in particular the perpetrators will acquire a reputation and people will just not read it i.e click on -it will be self censoring.Others may generate humorous or rhetorical responses, which some people also enjoy.
If I were Taunton, or whoever is Big Daddy, I would be lurking in the shadows-who knows what useful stuff is said when people are uninhibited-or it could be a double edged sword. Obviously unethical stuff (advertising, slander etc) would need attention of some sort.
Anyway, if people think things are boring or offensive, the choice is theirs-ignore it, or brighten it up or move on.Philip Marcou
Phillip, well said....... aloha, mike
he who has the gold makes the rules. OR the biggest guns..Dang.. Why can't we just get along!
Hi; Personally I think there has been way to much ranting in this thread. But I have a little story that seems appropriate for this discussion.
I was on another WWing forum, where there was a discussion going on about the use of guards and splitters on tablesaws, and some of the posts were pretty sanctimonious, and condescending in there claims that they would never go near a tablesaw without these safety devices in place, and anyone who did must have rocks in there head. This was the general flavor of the posts so far.
Well I decided to respond truthfully to this discussion, and admitted that the guards and splitters that came with my last two tablesaws were still in there original packages, and wouldn't be seeing daylight anytime soon.
Well as soon as I posted my response, it was deleted. I decided to post it again to see what would happen, and you guessed it, gone again.
Now you want to talk about big brother, that was ridiculous! But I didn't take it personally. I had a good laugh, and moved on.
By the way I am planning on putting a good splitter on my saw, I just have'nt put the time into finding out which one is the best and most convenient to use. I don't want it to end up under the bench like the other ones. Any suggestions
Cheers. Walker1
Edit; Well I see my post didn't get deleted from this message board.
Go Taunton!
Edited 9/13/2005 2:07 pm ET by Walker1
And, if you watch Norm's NYW shows, his table saw never has a guard or splitter!
Mhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
I don't want it to end up under the bench like the other ones. Any suggestions.hmmm you got me there. You might end up building a larger bench for them? ;-)Congratulations on getting your post thru. My guess its a complaint generated behaviour on some editors part. I know what you mean about the blind leading the blind, there are a few threads like that. It as if they take an average of the advice offered and make that the answer. Whether it will work or not appears to be immaterial. aloha, mike
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