Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 04, 2007 05:09am | #1

   Starting with a dye, instead of pigmented stain, is the first step.  This can generally be used to establish the basic coloring, with the concentration of the dye determining how dark the color will be.  Assuming you aren't using spray equipment, dye mixed with water (distilled) is by far the easiest to use. 

   Dyes generally tend to blotch much less than the stains you commonly see at local stores because the color is at a molecular level that penetrates dense and porous parts of the wood quite similarly.  The much larger size of the ground pigment in stains means that penetration varies between dense and porous portions. 

   Gel stains also "blotch" less than other pigmented stains because they don't penetrate as much.  They can be useful to add "depth" over dye, but if used by themselves to achieve a dark color can end up looking rather paint like. 

   The key with tricky woods (actually for any project) is to make samples on decent sized pieces of scrap of the same wood prepared in the same way as the project will be prepared.  Make sure you carry the finish all the way through to a top coat.  Dyes in particular look quite different before a top coat is applied (often quite awful) but come alive when the first coat of the top coat is added. 

1. 
   kandrewk | Jun 04, 2007 05:31am | #2

   Thanks Steve
   I had planed to use sherwin williams sherwood bac wipping stains wich I was told has a lot of dye in it. Would that work as well? I have never used dye before, is it hard to work with? Would it be better using both?
   I plan to top coat with lacquer. Also does premisting the wood solve the fuzz problem?

1. 
   mapleman | Jun 04, 2007 05:40am | #3

   andrew,

   some of the bac stains I have used don't look so hot on maple. And my local sher. williams only mixes it in gallons - so you could wind up spending a good deal for a color you don't like. I bought a brown color that looked good in the samle pamplet, but looked more like brown paint than stain on soft maple.

   For a nice medium brown color try general finishes gel stain - Java. Looks very nice by itself, but if you want it darker, then a coat of brown dye first will darken it nicely. I find dye can be a little tricky sometimes to apply, and I prefer to spray the coats(alcohol based). If you don't have access to spray equipment, then the water based dye as Steve suggested is the way to go.

   Good luck, and post some pics when you finish to let us know how it turned out.

   Lee

1. 
   kandrewk | Jun 04, 2007 06:22am | #6

   Thanks
   I think I have a small can of java jell stain , I'll give a sample a try.

2. 
   mapleman | Jun 04, 2007 05:48am | #4

   Andrew,

   FWIW here is a pic of the Java on soft maple

   
3. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 04, 2007 06:02am | #5

   I think dye is easier to use than stain with binder and pigment.  You can even lighten it up quite a bit if you get it too dark as long as you do it before a sealer goes on.  Pre-raising grain is useful, but doesn't totally eliminate the problem.  While you can sand off the fuzz directly on the dyed wood I usually don't de-fuzz until the first coat of sealer has been applied.  Sand throughs with dye are usually less traumatic than with stain, but can be avoided with care. 

   However, if you are using lacquer as a top coat, you must have facilities for solvent based spraying.  If so, that changes things.  You can spray NGR (non-grain raising) dyes directly on the wood.  You can also build some depth of color with toned finishes--as long as you don't go to extremes (think Bombay as the limiting case).  Kevin is clearly the expert here on spray finishes, I hope he pops in. 

   Edited 6/4/2007 8:55 am ET by SteveSchoene

1. 
   kandrewk | Jun 04, 2007 06:28am | #7

   Thanks Steve
   Are you saying that NGR stains would be better than dye if so why.
   I do have spray equipment but finishing is a art and definitly my weakest link.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 04, 2007 06:42am | #8

   NGR is a dye, not a pigmented stain, I mispoke earlier. (edited by now)  An example is Behlen Solarlux.  It is basically a spray only product because it dries too quickly for wipe on, wipe off.  You'd get overlap streaks if you did that.  Spraying, you can control the darkness in two ways.  First, is by how concentrated you mix the dye--with NGR you thin with the solvent specified by the manufacturer, and often with water, but if you do that you lose some of the NGR properties.  In addition you can "work up to" the desired darkness by spraying multiple light coats of relatively dilute dye.  Lots of control that way.  (You can't do this with wipe on finishes because the slower drying solvent would redissolve some of the earlier dye levels and the mechanical wiping action would move it around.)   

   Edited 6/4/2007 8:54 am ET by SteveSchoene