Replies

1. 
   Eef | Nov 06, 2009 08:30pm | #1

   j,
   although many here on knots are expert finishers, i have made enough similar blunders to maybe make a suggestion. the first place i would venture toward is finding a solvent that removes everything you've applied to the wood. this has all the hallmarks of a "needing-to-start-over" type deal. next, did the maple absorb any stain? if so and you have dissolved and removed the errant mess, you may now get to sanding off what stain you'd want removed.

   eef; not done learning either.

1. 
   Jimma | Nov 06, 2009 09:49pm | #2

   I agree that a new start is likely and just emailed General finishes to get their recommendation. In the meantime I'm stuck. Thanks for the suggestion. Jim

1. 
   Eef | Nov 07, 2009 12:25am | #3

   jim,
   ya know, maybe you could play/test whatever solvent type stuff you've lying around and you might hit on something and not have to wait. with out a doubt, you're going to literally bathe that project in solvent to begin your learning/penance process. i might think to start with mineral spirits. hopefully it won't have to come to lacquer thinner, i hate that ####.
   let us know how it works out.
   eef

1. 
   Jimma | Nov 07, 2009 06:56pm | #4

   Penance indeed! About the time you sent your last message I heard from General Finishes again with the statement to forget about using strippers. They only work on build up, apparently, not stains. After following their scrubbing suggestion using a Scotchbright abrasive pad and mineral spirits, it looks like I'll be spending the day sanding and sanding some more. Evidently that will only remove MOST of the stain. Their clear instructions to follow up with water-based dye, then water-based stain (pigment) will result in a relatively blotch-free color that will be ready for a top coat. This is the same process recommended for all tight-grained wood, and they admitted that maple is the worst to deal with. However, the guys I spoke with at a local Woodcraft recommended the opposite. Bad counsel that has cost me a couple of wasted days and money for the oil-based stain and conditioner. What about this stands out to you as a moral . . .?

1. 
   gtieszen | Nov 07, 2009 08:18pm | #5

   Don't know if this will work since it's an oil stain, but you might try using Clorox on it.  I've been using a water based dark walnut dye and if I get it too dark, a little clorox will remove virtually all the dark walnut color almost instantly.  Wash with clean water, and let it dry.  Now you it's ready for a re-application of the dye.

   As I said though, I'm using water based dye.  But hey, it's a cheap, easy fix if it works.

   GT

2. 
   Jimma | Nov 07, 2009 08:31pm | #6

   Good suggestion, but Clorox won't have any effect on the oil-based stuff. I did know about it, but the manufacturer clued me in. I'm on lunch break right now having scrubbed the trestle with a Scotchbright pad and mineral spirits, then washed it off. Now I'll wait for it to dry before starting the sanding at 120/150 per their recommendation. They did say there would likely be a small amount of color left after sanding, but that the dye and stain would take care of it. (Hide it?) Thanks for your suggestion. If only I knew what I was doing!

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 07, 2009 10:44pm | #7

   I don't know who you talked to at General Finishes, but they are just plain wrong about strippers.  Strippers will work on the pigmented part of the stain, which is held in place by a little bit of varnish (usually).  That is very much affected by strippers.  And will be a pretty easy task for the stripper.   Stripper may not remove everything--it won't get dye which has penetrated into the wood.  For that you need to use chlorox bleach.  But you can't bleach until the binder has been removed.  Trying to sand off stain usually gives bad results. 

   Waterbased stain over water soluble powdered dye is going to cause a problem since the stain will redissolve the dye, causing it to smear with the stain.  Water based stains are very hard to use anyway in my opinion since they dry so quickly that it is hard to apply and then wipe off evenly. 

   Watersoluble powdered dye, flooded on with a sponge makes a good starting place to establish the basic color.  It will blotch less than most alternatives, but maple is maple and "blotch" is just nascent figure.  Then you can seal this dye with dewaxed shellac (2 lb. cut is OK so you could use Seal Coat).  Then you can apply your oil based stain (preferably pigment only which would include a gel stain) without getting additional blotching. 

    

4. 
   Jimma | Nov 08, 2009 01:07am | #8

   Looks like GF knows their own product, Steve. I tried your Clorox and stripper remedies and neither one had much effect. In fact, the project is even now drying from having been thoroughly washed off after the stripper (methyl chloride and a bunch of other stuff) was applied. (It's so caustic it turned the concrete yellow where it dripped off.) What can I say? My experience didn't jibe with your recommendation. In any case, tomorrow will be a day of sanding to be followed by the (1) dye and (2) stain and eventually (3) a top coat. Since the table top (birch ply) has not been completed yet, and since there are plenty of cutoffs, I'll definitely follow GF's recommended schedule and see what happens. I'll also keep this thread open for updates. Thanks for your interest. Jim

5. 
   SteveSchoene | Nov 08, 2009 01:53am | #11

   I'm sorry that you are still having problems.  There is nothing unique or special about the General Finishes products.  The stripper undoubtedly removed the binder from the stain.  Getting dye out of the wood is much more problematic and is probably your problem.  Good luck.  Report back on your progress.    

2. 
   YesMaam27577 | Nov 08, 2009 01:16am | #9

   I'm betting that the conditioner sealed the wood. (Most of them do)

   But the stain needs to be absorbed by the wood.

   Sand off the conditioner, and start over.

   I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
   And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
   I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
   So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)

1. 
   Jimma | Nov 08, 2009 01:36am | #10

   You're probably right even though you'd think the stripper would take it off (or out). GF did say maple was the hardest to coloring process to control. Had I not started with oil-based products I would be way ahead. I looked up staining in Dresdner's book (only after the screw up was made) and he seemed to favor the dye plus stain approach on bare wood, only he mixes his own brew.

3. 
   Jimma | Nov 24, 2009 11:10pm | #12

   Hi, Steve -- here's the completed product, oil-based sealer and stain removed and replaced with water-based dye and stain . The maple trestle still shows slight blotching, but the birch plywood top matches quite well after five coats of oil/urethane top coats. All in all a fairly satisfactory outcome with lots of hand holding by General Finishes. I'm sure you're right about their products being pretty much like others, but I've been impressed with their willingness to offer counsel and customer support. They are even sending me some of their proprietary wax finish gratis. However, I'll be glad to return to "natural" finishes and forget stains and the compatibility issues.