My sister wants me to help her refinnish her solid oak floors (running and hiding is not a option) What finnsh is the best and eazy to use? Any thing out there without major fumes Can we do small sections at a time.
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I would get something in writing that she won't hold the results against you if she's not happy:). Joking aside the sanding is the hard part depending upon the condition you should sand to bare wood and put on 4 or more coats of oil based poly this can take a week with one day to sand and 1 coat a day for the finish. The HD in my area has the sanders as well as all of the finishes and applicators. I think oil based polys look better than the water based finishes although I am sure others might disagree. You might consider Shellac I think Frenchy is an advocate of this finish:). I have been itching to try this on a floor someday. Anyway what ever you do do a small test first you don't want your sister mad at you.
Troy
I used BonaKemi, a waterborne finish, on my oak floors. It's popular with floor finishers because you can get two coats on in a single day, it doesn't smell, and it's indestructible.
A lot of old timers just won't consider a water-based finish, but in the final analysis the convenience and performance matter more to me than ideological purity. With kids and dogs and a generally high traffic house I wanted something that would hold up for years and still look good, the Bona finishes have not disappointed.
My only suggestion would be to take into account what kind of use factors are in play before selecting a finish.
Woodman,
Excellent choice. We used this product in commercial stores all across the country where obvious high traffic was the norm.
http://www.bona.com/en/US/Country_Start_page/
Another great resource for hardwood (engineered or solid) flooring:
http://www.nofma.org/
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I assume you will rent sanders. You can now get them with pretty good dust collection, which reduces the interminable cleanup. Otherwise, the dust is everywhere.
As far as the sanders go, you can rent ROS type floor sanders. These don't have the learning curve of the big belt floor sanders which can, in an instant, make very nasty divots. The ROS type will take a lot longer than the belt sander, but that's before considering the time spent fixing problems that the belt sander have cause.
Also, check out the cost of having it professionally sanded. With a housing slowdown, you might be surprise at the affordability.
The suggestion to use the waterbased is not a bad idea. I am one of the "oldtimers that used mostly oil" but the water based dries faster and the smell is a whole lot easier to live with.
My input: before you sand, look at the wood. Is the existing finish really bad and the color really a mess? Many refinish jobs I have done did not include the heavy sander. Like Woodman said there is a learning curve and you can do some damage without trying with that big belt type sander. If you go that route, get some adult supervision before you turn on the switch. It is not a No-Brainer.
What else might you try? I have used a circular floor polisher. You can rent them. What you do is ask for a screen pad and scuff the existing finish so it will help the new varnish grab good and tight. In reality you are not going down as deep and taking wood away as aggresively. It has worked for me and the results are really nice. Its best to try a small section and see what you get. This is a good option in many cases.
Additionally, I might add that you are better off putting down a good gloss finish with no dulling polymers as your base coats. If you want a satin look put a final coat of this on the first gloss coat. Satin finishes by their mixture can not be as hard and durable as clear varnishes: OIL OR WATER. Keep that in mind if you want max durability and you don't want to be doing it again.
Edited 8/24/2007 8:38 pm ET by danmart
My favorite floor sander is my Porter Cable Drywall sander. You can get the paper for it in 80 to 220 grit. They are available for rental from Home Depot in some locations.
They are designed to capture drywall dust, and do a great job on the dust from sanding a floor.
One of those flash of insight, coupled with necessity, events led me to try it on the floor.
I moved to booney booney land, there is no tool rental. The previous owner of my house had been in the process of remodeling when she decided to get married and sell the house.
She had new oak floors put in, then painted every room in the house with water based paint. Then she closed up the house, got married, went on a honey moon, and didn't come back to the house for a month. The humidity caused the new floor to buckle, heave, shove, and otherwise try to destroy it self. The floors all settled back into place once the windows were opened up and the humidity dropped, but there was enough compression of the edges of the strips you could stick a quarter in some of them, and a dime in many of them.
I had to redo the floors before I could move in, and since I own a drywall sander, and the nearest place to rent a floor sander is a two hour trip one way, I tried the drywall sander with wonderful results.
I have oak floors, four children, dogs, cats, and dozens of neighborhood kids. I have a shellac finish. It has held up beautifully for two years even in very high traffic areas, and when it wears, the repair will be a snap. it is fast, easy, and the fumes are not bad and go away rapidly. It does not add moisture to the floor. If your brushes dry out, you put them in alcohol and they are good for the next coat.
Joe
dear joe
hi as can see my name is merv and im from western australia down under i would like to know a lot more about the shellac that you folkes have been using i would have thought that it would not be hard enough wearing and how have you been applying it look forward to your reply
regards
merv
I'm a big believer in shellac for floors as well, given the experience I've had with it on the stairs to my basement. I sprayed three coats on the treads about 15 years ago, and have done nothing to them since - aside from sweeping the dirt and grit off whenever I get around to it, which isn't very often.
Through those years we've used those stairs hard. In particular my 185 pound stepson, whose bedroom was down there, and who never used to wipe his feet on a mat after being outside. Come to think of it, now that he's 25, he still doesn't do that. But I digress...
The shellac has held up amazingly well. It's got a little wear in it now, right down the middle of the treads. But it shows as scuffing, not erosion down to the bare wood. I might throw on a couple more coats this fall if I can muster the energy, and that will take care of it. Overall, for the minimal time and money I put into the job initially, it has worked out more than satisfactorily. I'd recommend shellac as a floor finish to anyone.
Zolton * Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Zolton,
That's the beauty of shellac.. you don't need to strip the old off to add new.. A few more coats and zap! a few hours later and it's ready to go.. . do clean all the mud "n" gunk off though before putting the new coats down. I'd hate to see you staring at it for the next 15 years <G>
swervyn.
Shellac is shellac pretty much the world over. the quality varies for sure as does the color but shellac itself is pretty tough and durable.. The reason it get's this image of being fragle is because it's commonly used to restore antiques and they can be very delicate (or the way they are treated is very delicately).
Nothing could be further from the truth.. it's tough and durable and holds up well on floors.. two things damage it.. leaving water stand on it for hours, or ammonia or ammonia based cleaning products..
Oops alcohol but you should be drinking alcohol not pouring it on the floor! <G>
Since shellac fixes so easy, and blends in perfectly repairing areas that are damaged. I honestly don't understand why it's not more common.. It seems to me it would be a whole lot easier to put another coat down rather than waxing and buffing a floor to get back the shine. I mean you just mop it on and it dries quickly..
frenchy,
i thank you very much for your reply to my question one thing i forgot to ask does it matter if it is 1 2 or 3lb cut look forward to your response and i thank you once again for your response it seems funny to be able to talk to someone on the other side of the world
many regards
merv edwards
The choice of the cut depends on how you apply the shellac but since each shellac application melts into the shellac applied earlier it ends up being essentially one coat, no matter what cut is used to apply it.
I find three pound cut is a bit more difficult to brush and has more tendency to leave "fat edges" but takes fewer applications to cover. Two pound is generally easy to apply and builds pretty well. One pound is too light for most of us, and just doesn't build very quickly.
While I like shellac you do need to be aware that it does scratch more easily than polyurethane varnish, either waterborne or oil-based. It does this because it is much harder than the varnish, but that hardness means brittleness. It is easy to repair, but the basic reality is that you need to like the "patina" that the shellac finish will develop on floors.
Edited 8/28/2007 8:54 pm ET by SteveSchoene
steve thanks very much for that info i will deffinetly give it a go as im building a set of spiral stairs now , i useually put on my floors a waterborne finish on my floors as well stairs so many thanks to all that have replied to my questions
thanks
merv edwards
Steve,
You mention that shellac scratches easier than polyurethanes. I'm not sure that's a fact.. polyerethanes are softer and in my experiance shellac wears longer and more scratch free. Plus the ease which scratches can be fixed with shellac compared to polyurethanes makes it a natural for floors in my opinion..
What really sold me was this summer. I had a air conditioner plug up and water overflowed onto the floor.. I don't know how long the water was there before I caught it it. Most likely was hours and yet when I wiped it up with towels (note plural) it never turned white on me as I expected. We tend to leave windows open and it's normal for rain to come in occasionally and yet no damage has been done yet in spite of the floors being soaking wet for some time before we remember that a window was left open.
I agree that shellac, especially dewaxed shellac, is much more resistant to water damage that most people seem to realize. And, while you wouldn't want to leave a spilled martini on it overnight there isn't an instant disaster either.
I think the abrasion difference is pretty well documented, and conforms to my experience. It's poly's softness that allows it to give a bit and not scratch so readily. But being a bit more scratch prone than poly doesn't mean it's a disaster in that regard either.
Steve ,
I've looked at a number of Items that I've put polyurethane over during the last few decades and compared then to somewhat similar items that have been shellaced. This sure isn't scientific and there has been no double blind back to back comparisons made but it seems like polyurethanes instead of scratching leave smallish dents in the finish unless really gouged by a sharish item, while shellac doesn't seem to dent as easily unless the underlying wood is damaged.
Even still, If you look at my floor ( 8666.13 I think) you'll see the black walnut has a deep dents in it from my dogs toe nails but the shellac isn't damaged at all, it conforms to the dent in the wood, but the finish isn't broken (which is what I'd call a scratch)
Looking at furnature that's been shellaced and comparing it to the few bits that I polyurethaned I can't definatively say that the poly is in better shape.
This is only my opinion but I think that the softness of polyurethanes actaully makes things worse.. Grit is placed into the poly because it's softness allows the grit to be "captured" while shellac because it's harder forces grit to be on the surface to be swept up.
Merv.
I buy three pound cut but reduce it to one pound cut. It goes on easier, dries faster and helps guys like me who are really miserable painters..
Just flood it on and it will smooth itself out.
birdie7556
Please look carefully at shellac as a finish.
First it's insanely easy to do, if you want you could safely pull a Tom Swayer on neighborhood kids and wind up with a great finish.
Second you can start it at noon and move furniture in place by nightfall
third the "Fumes" are like spending about an hour at the doctors office.
fourth it's really really cheap! $50 bucks will do a decent sized room
fifth darn few finishes are as hard. see number 13 and if you'd like to look at my floor done in shellac go to 8666.13
sixth it can be repaired so easy if damaged that a deep scratch will take less than a minute to be perfect! You will never have to sand the finish to spot fix it. just wipe on some more, it melts right in with the old shellac and blends perfectly..
seventh it's the absolute safest finish there is, you've been eating shellac all of your life (pills and a lot of candy is coated with it)
eight. it's a natural product mother nature makes it
ninth no other finish has a long a history, it's been used for thousands of years..
tenth any shellac that you get on your clothes washes right out.
eleventh, it's a rich and deep shine without looking like plastic.
twelfth, Fine antiques are usually done in shellac to bring out the richness in the wood.
thirtenth is an extremely durable finiish that withstands all the running and jumping my 150 pound dog can give it.. while he can manage to dent the wood the actual finish istelf is unharmed..
fourteenth I'll be glad to talk you thru the steps required and what's more if you don't like it, you can simply wipe it away at any time (my own actaul experiance has been limited to 70 year old shellac but I'm willing to bet that if you want to remove it a 100 years or more from now you can wipe it away just as easy.. no sanding required..
I have to admit I was pretty dismissive of the shellac suggestion initially but after reading the replies I think I will be seriously considering it next time around.One last point is that I have been in recent years trying to reduce my environmental impact. I'm no tree-hugger but I figure that reducing solvents and waste is just a good policy to implement. I went to water-based finishes for all my needs, and shellac is about as green as one can get. I love the warmth of shellac as well.
That shellac is something I use all the time on furniture but I haven't used it on floors other than as a color and sealer. Is it tough enough to stand as the final coat on a floor??
Dan
Man made polys
God made shellac
Who do you trust?
(Words from "Frenchy's Theme" in the musical comedy "Shellacing on Oak Street"
Dan,
look at 34866.1 and 34866.5 for pictures of my floor after my 150 pound newfoundland who absolutely refuses to clip his toe nails and loves to run & jump around has done his worst for about six months..
Shellac is harder than most other finishes..
That's right, harder!
there was a post earlier about someone trying to remove a finish off an old floor. He'd used most removers without luck. Shellac is tough!
Plus it can be repaired so darn easy you can't believe it.. Get a scratch in it somehow and all you need to do to make the scratch disappear is a rag slightly dampened with denatured alcohol. Say the magic words, rub-a-dub-dub and scratch be gone!
Two things damage shellac, water left on for a long time and ammonia. Oh and alcohol but what are you doing spilling single malt scotch anyway? Have you no respect? <G>
Water takes a while to damage shellac.. I had a airconditioner leak all over my shellaced floor for quite a while before I caught it. I quickly wiped it up with a towel and no damage resulted.. actually the floor was now dust free <G> several times I've had windows open and it's rained it a bit before I remembered oops! that window is open.
Even if you pour windex on the floor, leave your split drink on it and etc. shellac can be repaired without sanding simply by wiping up the damaged area with denatured alcohol and reapplying the shellac. It blends together perfectly.
So your answer is yes! Shellac is great for floors!
This has me scratching my head??? For years I have used orange shellace on furniture and lots of boat objects. Don't cringe. The orange shellac was strained and "dewaxed" by eye in the old days. I used it to get the yellow/orange color back in to the new sections of 2 1/4 red oak I installed. It helped with matching real well but then I would varnish to "give it protection. Now Yankee Logic followed the rule of using gloss varnish(oil with some japan drier in it) and go from there.
Now I have a job coming with about 1500' of red oak and the floor had one coat of gloss followed by a coat of satin. It is a bit dull and scuffed in places to the point where the owner wants refinishing.
In the past, I have scuffed it with a floor buffing wheel with a screen pad to give the new varnish surface to grip.
I am at a crossroad: use shellac on top of old varnish or continue with the varnish schedule. The shellac sure has some advantages- for one I like the smell and it is dry in no time.
I would have thought water would be a big concern but reading some of your earlier discussions, it seems like others are not hindered by the nature of shellac. I'm wondering: what do you do to mop/clean the floor? I use a damp mop and soap and water. Have you done this with shellac??
Let me know when you have a chance.
danmart.
I don't flood the floors with the mop, a slightly damp mop get's up dust and some dirt. I wipe up dirt that doesn't get picked up by the mop. a little water doesn't affect it at all as long as it get's wiped off completely.
I've never thought of doing things the opposite way, putting shellac over polyurethane.. I can understand why he went from gloss to satin with polyurethane. It looks real plasticy and satin just looks dull no depth. Strip off all the poly, start from scratch and have him look at the floor when you are finished.. No combination of polyurethane will ever look as good as shellac does.. IMHP
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Dan said varnish. That doesn't mean poly does it? If not poly, then a thorough cleaning and I would think a cost or few of shellac would be ok.
If it is poly under then I'm not so sure. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Trying to understand what goes with what, and in what sequence.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
fifteenth - It dries really fast so when you get the first coat on more than likely you can start over again with the next coat.
sixteenth - If last coat is dry go to fifteenth else continue
seventeenth - Sit back and have a cold one or five!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That is the beauty of shellac. It will stick over anything. You don't have to take the old finish down.
J
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