I have a great long time customer who wants new kitchen cabinets built from solid book matched cherry. They will be traditional face frame construction . A large (16″wx 36″h) slab door inset in the frame seems like a recipe for disaster. Any advice?
Thanks, Brad
Replies
queets,
This may shock you but large paneled doors have been made since colonial times out of cherry, solid cherry..
care must be taken when working to adjust for wood movement but it's frequently done..
frenchy,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a kitchen environment I would think the finish would be the major concern as opposed to the wood.
Also, I've had real good luck pre finishing the parts before assembly, no matter what the environment is going to be their home, except the joints.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 6/20/2007 12:09 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Yea, they've been making doors this big a long time, but these are to be inset doors. If they warp or twist just a little bit, it'll be very noticable. Overlay doors are much more forgiving.
Edited 6/20/2007 3:35 pm by BarryO
Barry,
These doors are solid slab doors, not frame and panel. Warp and twist are exactly what I am worried about. I have suggested overlay doors......maybe this discussion will help. Thanks for taking the time! Brad
Queets,
Breadboard ends and battens perhaps might help keep them straight.
I remember reading an article in FWW about battens for doors and some very inventive methods were employed. One was actually invisible. Maybe someone else can chime in with the issue as I am not near my collection of FWW.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Actually I don't think overlay doors would really be much of an improvement, if the cherry goes out of flat it will still look bad, it just won't expand and get bound in the opening. I think bookmatched veneer is the way to go for this configuration. RonIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
BarryO
I understand that you worry that your skills might not be up to the task.. There are little tricks and tecniques that ensure success to prevent warpage in assembly I'll assume that you are capable of making all the parts square true and even. there are too many books on the subject to list any particular one and if I recommend one someone is sure to be offended because it's not their favorite one..
Frency's right -- large frame and panel doors have been made for centuries.
The biggest problem I would have with this request, would be finding book matched cherry that is more than 8" wide to start; or finding 8/4 material that wide. But such wood is readily available depending on location.
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
Frame and panel doors of this size would not be a problem, however if I understand your post correctly you are talking about a door made from a glue up of resawn bookmatched cherry that is a solid slab of wood. If that is correct, then yes it would be a problem. It would be hard to keep the door latching properly because of wood movement and keeping a suspended slab of solid cherry flat in any environment much less a kitchen would be a tall task.
Ron
Why don't you veneer the doors? You'll attain stability and save a piece of a tree to boot. Since these are inset doors, the end grain of a slab door wouldn't normally be seen anyway. Bookmatching across the bank of cabinets is a piece of cake with veneer. Certainly Woods has cherry veneer in 1/16" thickness which ought to provide plenty of durability if the client is adverse to having that "woosy paper thin veneer."
Our kitchen cabinets are solid wood cherry inset doors. At least 2 are about 5 ft tall. They are a full 1" thick in the middle and then taper to the edges with a pillow shape. There are battens across the inside to keep them flat. They have not changed in almost 5 years now.
Your project shows that it can be done. We have wide swings in humidity in Seattle. Is this true in your area? Thanks for the info! Brad
We live in Ann Arbor (southeastern Michigan). The summers can be humid, and we try not to use air conditioning if possible so the humidity can go to 90% on some days. In the winter we use the furnace where the humidity can be as low as 25%.
There seems to be some confusion with the terms solid, slab, panel, etc.
Solid wood doors would be vs veneered doors.
Slab may mean all the grain going one direction, with battens on the back (or front).
Panel can mean slab, or it can mean frame and panel, or veneered.
Now, Slab doors have been around for centuries, and will move with the seasons after acclimatizing to the room. You need to do your homework and prepare your customer for the inevitable refits that will be needed. After a year or so, they will then just move within the seasonal humidity range of the installation. Design fasteners, pulls, latches to accommodate this.
Frame and panel doors - made from perhaps 5 pcs of wood - were developed in the evolution of wood construction to limit the width expansion typical in slab doors. the expansion is still there, but limited to the two stiles. The movement of the panel is isolated. These are easier to fit on inset applications, but still require you to do your homework and have some experience at fitting them.
Most constructions of veneered doors will have no expansion or contraction, so inset is easy.
In the craft continuum, overlay is lower craft than inset. Inset implies knowledge of wood movement and accommodation of same, and therefore of a higher level of craft. Fine Woodworking vs mediocre woodworking. But that's just my opinion.
Dave S
In the craft continuum, overlay is lower craft than inset. Inset implies knowledge of wood movement and accommodation of same, and therefore of a higher level of craft. Fine Woodworking vs mediocre woodworking. But that's just my opinion.
QFT. I usually save the effort of "fine woodworkinh" for things other than kitchen cabinets, though.
But heck, what do I know. I'm currently building an aquarium stand, of all things, with inset doors and Brusso knife hinges!
Queets,
Quartersawn cherry will move less than plainsawn. The tangential movement (in a flatsawn piece of cherry) is 7.1%. The radial (quartersawn) movement is only 3.7%. It will still be a factor, but you should be able to get an idea of how much movement there will be. I would make sure the wood does not have any twist or cupping before it's milled up.
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the numbers. I am planing on quartersawn cherry and am considering using battens (stainless bar stock?) on the backside of the large doors. Brad
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