Hello Knots,
This is my first time addressing your forum. I’m an architect working on a school renovation where I’ve called for 3/4″x1/2″ solid surface nosing on 3/4″ p-lamed plywood core bookshelves, and a 3/4″x1-1/2″ face on countertops. The millworker says it can’t be done, that the plastic will fall off, etc. He did a sample with a simple butt joint and hot glue, but indeed, they did fall off with very little provocation.
We took the sample home and biscuit joined it with polyurethane glue and it seems very strong. I have not been able to break it apart. I’m thinking to reject the millworker’s submittal and insist on
splined joint similar to a wood nosing using whatever adhesive the solid surface manufacturer recommends. It&
#39;s worth noting the solid surface manufacturers are not very helpful, like they don’t want to be blamed for anything. Also the AWI did not have anything to recommend, tho’ they welcomed a submittal to add to their book, once we answer this. We do have some fear that different expansion rates between the wood and the solid surface material may cause a problem down the line.
Can anyone say with comfort that this has been done before and how it held up? I can’t imagine this is new under the sun!
I’d appreciate replies to my email if possible.
Thank you,
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> William J. DeVos, President
>>> RFL Architects, P.C.
>>> 151 St. Paul Street
>>> Rochester, NY 14604
>>> phone: (585)325-2600
>>> fax: (585)325-1720
>>>
>>> email: <[email protected]>
>
Replies
He did a sample with a simple butt joint and hot glue, but indeed, they did fall off with very little provocation.
YEP! Hot glue is nothing like a spline and REAL glue! LOL
Try posting your question on the http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/lss.pl and the adhesives forum. The Woodweb is a more industrial based professional forum with a lot of great resources.
I think you will have a hard time with this. I was a certified fabricator for several brands of solid surface when I worked for a large custon kitchen shop. I fabricated solid surface nearly full time. As far as the mfgrs. are concerned anything other than EXACTLY as they specify how to use it is a huge problem. There were way to many problems in the early days where it was being used for all kinds of unapproved aplications and then failed. The material would get a bad reputation even though it wasn't a material problem, rather a fabrication problem. That's why these days they really want to crack down on unapproved aplications, some times even threatening to revoke certifications.
As to your situation my gut reaction is that it would work as you described, but I wouldn't want to be the one who has to back it when it fails a couple of years down the road. There may be problems with dissimilar expansion rates caused by heat and cold or humidity that over time will cause it to fail. If I was doing it for my own house I would give it a try, worst case I replace it. If I was approached by a client with this, I would try to convince them to go another route. If I couldn't, I would walk away. I have seen too many problems with solid surface being rigidly bonded to other materials by fabricators who played loose with the guidelines. I wouldn't want to stake my reputation on it. Just my $.02, take it for what it is worth. Good luck with what ever you decide.
Brian
Hi, YOu might also want to post this question in Breaktime - that's where the fine homebuilding people hang out.... (see the list above, breaktime is the second one and you don't need another account to access)
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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I've made quite a lot of furniture featuring SS materials including Corian and Wilsonart. When bonding to wood, I use 100% GE Silicone II, and have not had a failure as of yet. As silicone stays flexible, I would use a spline or T&G for rigidity. Cover the ply edges to be joined when finishing. I would use a WB finish that wou't be affected by solvents such as Acetone for removal of excess silicone. Run a tape bead along the ply edge to catch any squeeze out to minimize clean-up.
You could also rabbet both pieces slightly to give a "lock" to the edge and permit easier alignment in a production environment.
You should have no problem with this at all.....I'm a certified fabricator, and we were taught to do this during certification. We used the regular solid surface adhesive, and the spline is not necessary. On the countertop, it is best to add a buildup behind the SS so there is continuous backing, and more glue area. On the countertop, 1/2" thickness is standard......3/4 would give you room for a deeper routed moulding, but not necessary otherwise. Don't worry about the manufacturers warranty unless this is residential......no manufacturers warranty on commercial work anyway in most cases.
I'm more worried about your spec of p/lam on plywood......this is specifically disallowed under AWI rules (I think it's not permitted.....at the very least it is specifically warned against), and voids every p/lam manufacturers warranty that I know of. P/lam should always be used with MDF or particleboard.
edited to add.....you don't need to worry about the glueline being too rigid with solid surface adhesive....in the widths you are dealing with, different rates of expansion/contraction etc. aren't an issue.
cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Edited 5/18/2005 7:39 am ET by Adrian
First of all, in order to validate what I am about to submit to you, I am certified in every SS material on the market. Been working with it for 20 years. I have personally met the chemist who came up with the formulation for Fountainhead and had a hand in the fabrication and installation manuals for both Fountainhead and Corian.
The biggest problem I see with the application you describe is in the flexing of the shelves. No SS material is structural by nature, therefore stress MUST be kept to a minimum. The vertical members should pose little problem as there will be minimal flexing. The shelves, however, pose a significant risk of joint failure. Biscuits or splines would definitely be inappropriate as they create internal 90 degree angles known as stress risers. These are basically weak points where stress fractures are initiated.
Depending on the length of the shelves, you might consider making them thicker to eliminate sagging. Once this problem has been addressed, I would think that the edging can be adhered with either pure silicone or the manufacturer's adhesive.
Let me know if I can be of further assistance.
What is "SS"?
Solid Surface
Thanks.
Well, we certainly have generated some discussion. The Knots forum led me to Woodweb (laminating fabricators) which in turn led me to ISSFA (solid surface fabricators). Thank you all for your advice. It's impressive to see how many concerned people are out there. I've gotten replies, direct emails, faxes and long distance phone calls! I talked with our millworker and I believe worked out a compromise swapping out some of the SS for vinyl, improving the detail on the SS we are using, and changing the 3/4" plywood for 15/16" MDF.Wish us luck and best wishes to all of you.
Bill DeVos, RFL Architects, Rochester, NY
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