You got me hooked on shellac, but I do have some questions.
For practice, I’m doing an 18 inch square table top in maple. I apply three or four coat, let dry and then sand. But its not quite as simple as it seemed at first.
How long does it take for shellac to dry? I let it sit overnight and flipped it over (on a towel to protect it) but when I reinverted it, it had towel texture imbedded in it.
When all the coats are on and you begin to sand, do you sand until every dip is completely removed? I was starting at 220 and then moved down to 120 but the paper (Norton 3X) clogs so fast I spend more time cleaning the paper than sanding. I don’t even have that far to go, I used a 1# cut and a quality brush which gave a nice surface. Is sanding always to be done by hand?
Brushing and sanding a flat surface isn’t so bad, but I’ve got a series of spindle side craftsman end table coming up. Whats the best way to get the spaces on the strecher in between the spindles? There really isn’t enough room to go with the grain.
Thats it for now.
jeremy
Replies
jeremy, It sounds as though your shellac solution is old and needs to be discarded. Shellac should dry hard overnight. One of the shellac evangellists here, frenchy, uses a very dilute solution which dries to sanding-hard in less than an hour. Shellac should sand to a fine, dry powder. Anything less satisfactory than that and the shellac is either not yet dry or (if it has been overnight since applied), too old. Dry shellac flakes (not yet disolved in alcohol) last almost indefinitely, but when disolved undergo chemical changes which impair hardening after drying. Usually 6 months is the point where a shellac solution starts to degrade. I scuff sand (220-320) the first coat so I get the tops of the shellac "mountains" and the raised grain. The "valleys" stay a little shiny. With each coat, the surface becomes more and more uniform with the scuff sanding. When perfectly uniform (all the hills and valleys sand out with little effort to a uniform, ground-glass apperance) I know I'm done applying shellac coats and can begin the final rubbing out. Rich
It sounds to me also like the shellac is old. Shellac should be hard enough to produce sanding dust after a couple of hours. You should be able to sand with 320 paper--120 is way too rough.
Here is a something written by a friend of mine who works a lot with shellac both on new period projects and repairs of old furniture.
QUOTE
Applying a shellac finish is one part reading how (or watching a video demonstration) and ten parts practice. It is one of those processes in which you will one day reach what I call the "A-Ha" point in your journey and it will all simply fall into place. I would urge you to stick with the process and finish lots of test boards before you take the technique to a real project.
I can give you this simple pointer as a place to start. Forget everything that you know about applying other finishes. In particular, that means forget about the concept of "coats"! Every time you apply another coat of shellac to an existing shellac film you significantly increase the probability of failure, both near and long term. This is especially true if you are attempting to pad on a shellac-only finish. Padding (in my view, the best way to achieve a high quality shellac finish) is actually a continuous process in which a single coat is applied in steps until the finish is refined to a very hard film and a high luster.
I would also add (along the lines of changing your focus from "coats") that you need to change your view of what constitutes a good finish film. When we apply varnish, lacquer, or even water-borne finishes we think in terms of "building" the finish film. The best shellac finish is the thinnest film that you can apply consistent with good coverage and an even-depth film. One of my visualizations when I teach a class on shellac is to hold up a single flake of shellac (about the size of a quarter) and suggest that our objective is to dissolve this flake and then spread it evenly over the surface of our test board. Clearly, that is not possible; however, the image helps to reinforce the idea of a thin film. It helps students to think shellac and to loose the varnish or lacquer coat-building mind set.
As further evidence of this "think thin" approach I will simply hold up the shellac finish on 200-year-old antiques. Those on which the shellac finish has remained largely intact (and there are many) are those on which the shellac film is quite thin. The ones that have alligatored are those on which the finisher built up a thick shellac film. In using shellac, you increase the amount of resin by mixing a heavier cut, not applying more coats.
Finally, application of shellac is best accomplished by padding, not brushing. Attempting to appy more that the first application by brush leads frequently to uneven buildup and stickiness. Brush on the first application, sand flat and then pad on two to three more appliations. Sanding should not be necessary unless you messed up during your padding.
Steve
END QUOTE
HowardAcheson,
you made a rather clear statement of using shellac. I do have one issue which I would like to discuss with you, which is your statement that you put on the first coat with a brush and then sand flat, padding the following coats on..
(basically a modified french polish technique?)
Anyway I always sand the first coat simply to remove the nubs and fuzz that are raised. I also sand the second coat with a well wornpiece of sand paper/sanding sponge to ensure any nubs, etc.. are gone.. I don't attempt to make the surface perfect since the final coat melts the earlier coats..
I see you don't sand after the first coat .
frenchy, Sanding isn't necessary after the first coat sanding if all subsequent application (I'll call them sessions, not coats) is by padding. Padding applies and levels the shellac in one step. I always apply shellac in this way for small pieces. But for larger pieces, as I've said before I spray. Spraying, or using your very dilute shellac method by brush, always requires sanding (IMHO), if not between every "session," then between every few sessions. I'm glad the concept of "total number of coats" has come up in this thread. I agree that the number of coats (sessions) has no real relevance with shellac. There IS no predetermined number and the total number changes for different uses. As a "general purpose" method (whatever that means) I know I have enough shellac on the piece when very light scuff sanding with 320 grit on a felt block easily levels the entire surface to a uniform matte appearance. Before that point, each between-session sanding leaves shiny low areas (which become smaller and smaller) until that last sanding. Rich
Edited 2/10/2007 5:37 pm ET by Rich14
Rich14
Ah, you are using a modified color sanding approach. You're right it does yield a nice finish, better than my overthin it appraoch. However it takes a bit of skill and understanding to achieve,, very easy to over sand and go thru to the bare wood if you don't know just what you are doing..
Since I'm talking to mostly new people to finishing, I'd rather make it really simple for them to get good results and let wisened old vets show them the more complex methods..
I, for one, do not use shellac to fill imperfections or to fill the grain. If I want a glass smooth surface, I will first use a grain filler therefore I am working with an almost perfectly flat surface. An initial brushed on 2# cut will raise and wood fiber shards and fill in any remaining minute surface imperfections. Sanding with 320 on a sanding pad will provide the final flatten operation. Now the surface is ready for a padded on finish. Padding will not produce the very top quality surface and glass clear finish that is possible from a skillfully produced french polish technique, but it gets pretty close and is a lot easier.That's not to say that I don't sometimes brush shellac. Irregular surfaces get brushed and even some flat surfaces. But I generally resurve shellac finishes for reproduction of period peices. I would not use it for much of anything else. I nicely done wipe-on non-poly varnish consisting of no more than three-four coats will produce a finish very similar to a padded shellac finish and it is more durable.Howie.........
HowardAcheson
A wipe on varnish is more durable than shellac?
I'm sorry I simply cannot accept that.. I try to collect mahogany nautical items from the past. Most have a varnish finish of some sort and even if never used at sea, yet few have the original varnish in acceptable shape. I'm talking about interior household items like lamps and desks etc.. stuff that is not exposed to weather. 50 to say 100 years old..
Common procedure now is to strip the remnants of varnish left, and put on a shellac finish.. Shellac items in similar circumstances still remain in nice shape.
The history of shellac should prove the myth about the lack of durability..
OOPs!
I may understand what you are saying?
Are you refering to items used outdoors? OK then you are absolutely correct!
Shellac is lousy outdoors. All my black walnut timbers have several coats of epiphanes on them.. it's held up well for nearly 5 years now Too bad the UV light fades the black walnut..
When I use the description of "durable", I mean that it can stand up to everyday usage better. Modern varnishes and poly varnishes are much "tougher" than shellac. They do not scratch as easily nor do they tend to fail when subjected to a ding. Shellac is harder and therefore more brittle.I would agree that old time varnishes may not have been that long lasting. But todays synthetic resins and mixing formulations are much better than they were. The shop I was involved with did lots of work for a couple of high end custom yacht builders. We using high end marine coatings--not the consumer crapola available in the local big box--and I would put those finishes up to any shellac. Of course, exterior finishes are sanded and recoated annually with a complete stripping every 5-7 years. Nothing is long lived out in the sun and elements.My final point is that there is no single "best" finish. All finishes are compromises between ease of application, longevity, appearance and the abuse it must take. As far as I am concerned poly varnish is best left to floors and the everyday used kitchen table. Finishing is a skill--and to some extent an art--that must be learned and practised. There are no short cuts. After all, it's the finish that gets the "oohs and aahs" not the joinery.Howie.........
HowardAcheson,
I see that you don't subscribe to the hundred year rule then.. <G> I constantly read about the new formula this and modified formula that.
Yet shellac continues to be as it was created about 5000 years ago.. Hmmm,
I honestly accepted the idea that shellac scratches easily, except it doesn't seem to!
Hopefully you've read enough about my dog and his nails that I won't need to bore you, but the timbers inside my house don't show a single scratch and I haven't been kind to them either!
Can you scratch Shellac? Sure! Is it softer thn other finishes? Not in my experiance.. will it scratch easier? No.
Epiphanes is a good brand of varnish, at least a lot of wooden boat owners seem to like it.. I put 4 coats of epiphanes on my exterior timbers and where the wood was properly dried before appling it's still perfectly in place.. It's peeled off of wood that was still a bit green when installed but that's not the fault of the varnish rather my error.
But it's softer than shellac (not that I'd use shellac outside because like you say there is no one finish is best)..
However I wish you could see the ease which I can finish a hardwood floor with shellac.. I am not BSing, I can do 500 sq.ft in about two hours from start to finish. It looks great!
frenchy, How do you sand the floor, either the wood or the finish? Rich
I agree with Frenchy on this. My shellac floors have held up very well for over a year now with two cats, a dog, four children and guests, and two adults plus lots of neighbor children. Under that use -- less than commercial, but not like a retired couple, that's for sure-- we still have sheen and glow, and no more scratching that any other finish -- even under dining room chairs. All that, and scratches and dings are so easy to repair that it hardly takes any thought and effort.
It is reputed that Shellac is not sensitive to UV. Does anyone know about that?
BTW, no idea how Frenchy does it, but for floors I use very fine grit paper on the kind os stick and pad that is used for overhead drywall work. Keeps me from having to bend over. Just go very lightly.
Edited 2/11/2007 7:42 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
I've never shellaced anything as big as a floor. Thinking about the sanding is, um, daunting.
Rich:
You'd think so, but it really isn't bad. The main thing is to do a good job after the seal coat to be sure you knock off the nubs and raised grain if any. That sanding block on a stick thing I mentioned before takes a lot of the pain out of the process. That is not so effective if you have cupped boards, of course. even so, you ave not really bearing down, but rather, just doing come clean up and polishing as it were.
Rich14
Well I use those square pad About 18x24 random orbit sanders to sand the wood to flat. So much easier to use than those old drum sanders! No risk of gouges!
Then I clean off the dust, tack rag everything. Splash on the overthinned shellac and let it dry 15 minutes, I run a little 5" DA over the floor w/220 grit paper and have it all sanded inside of about 10 maybe 15 minutes. Tack rag again and splash on the second coat. lightly scuff the shellac after about 1/2 hour drying time. Tack rag and put on the last coat..
Its great reading your posts about shellac. Why do you think it is losing in the market place? Hype or what? Its not the easiest to find in a small town.
Any real hardware store should at least carry Seal Coat and probably a few other types of shellac. Even if they don't have it, they can order it for you.
John W.
Ahh, the dreaded "we can order it." Done quite a lot of that. Pretty darn tight with Lee Valley. I did find some locally (just the small cans) and followed Frency's recommendations for a couple of projects. What I was trying to say is that it has lost out in the market place, but it seems to be a great finish. The best part is the speed it dries.
Around here (Dallas, TX) Lowes carrys Bullseye in blonde and amber. HD hasa to order. Seal coat is available fairly widely, especially by mail order. I have bought about 3 gallons from Rockler in the last year or so, and have noticed other places that carry it.
Seal coat hasn't been out very long. THose who use it give it excellent reviews, but the word has not fully gotten around. That is not too surprising, as many people still think of shellac as a somehow inferior finish. My own view is that except for specialized uses and specific needs, it is a SUPERIOR finish. The supposed superiority of the newer synthetics is the product of good marketing stemming from the old "better living through chemistry" era -- the same kind of thought that gave us polyester leisure suits.
Joe:
I agree that shellac is a superior finish in many ways and I use it frequently, but it has a shortcoming...it can be dissolved by alcohol which makes it a poor choice for tabletops that could be exposed to spilled drinks. Lacquers and varnishes are not soluble by alcohol so they are preferred for tabletops.
Jim
A spilled drink has to be left for a while to have any effect. After all it is never more than 50% ethanol, and usually much less than that. Leave it overnight and you will have a repair job to use up half an hour.
Never more than 50%? Where were you when I was in high school chasing straight shots of Everclear with coke? You might have saved me a few brain cells.
;-)
Of course, in that case you deserve to have to refinish a table top. Using Coke as a mixer is pretty bad.
Well I wanted Pepsi, but was outvoted.
Jim:
What you say is perfectly true, to a point. However, the alcohol has to be there a while to do any real damage except to the most refined finish Alcohol does not dissolve it instantly even when it is new, and after a couple of months or so, the finish hardens and cures to the point where it would take considerably longer. Still, as you say, there is a possibility of damage-- but then, ANY finish will suffer from something hot or wet being on it for very long.
I suspect that the issue might be bigger for a customer who wanted a bar or kitchen table, or a coffee table in a room used for entertaining, etc, where a drink mightbe spilled and overlooked. For other kinds of furniture, I wouldn't see it as a problem.
Note that I said "customer." For me, or others who are familiar with shellac, the repair of damage that did not actually stain the wood woud be pretty quick and easy. A customer who knows nothing of finishes might have a bit of heartburn.
I agree with you, Joe. If the alcohol is cleaned up quickly, it won't damage the finish, especially if it has had a chance to cure. With that said, if you sell a table to a client and liquor gets slopped on the tabletop at a party, it can cause some problems if it isn't cleaned up fairly quickly. Customers may feel that the finish didn't provide the protection that they expected.
Jim
Undeniably true. I think we agree completely. It would be risky to put shellac on certain kinds of surfaces for clients, more's the pity.
brad805
In the absence of marketing, other products gain popularity due to sales reps doing demonstrations and hyping the product.. all that costs money which is clearly reflected in their pricing..
The very nature of shellac means that it should be massively more expensive than it is. The fact that it is so affordable at the present time should make those smart enough to buy it and use it now extremely proud..
Sort of like being in a very exclusive club that only allows smart ambitous people in.
Interesting continuing thread.
There is a lot of conflicting information about shellac for those of us with no experience with it to lend perspective. For example - "never touch it with anything with ammonia in it, such as Windex" followed in other threads with "cleans up nicely with a mild solution of ammonia". Frenchy, do you know which is correct?
Then, there is considerable discussion about how tough the finish is, so tough in fact that it is recommended as a suitable finish for wooden floors, but then definitely NOT recommended for use as the finish for the vertical surfaces of kitchen cabinets due to the expected high level of cleaning.
Keep it up, though, 'cause over time us new hands are learning, we're learning.
Mike D
Shellac disoves readily in an annomia solution which literally strips it from wood. "Cleans up nicely" probably refers to getting it off wood, not cleaning grime from a shellac finish. Rich
Rich:
Not disputing what you say, but have you actually seen the ammonia work this way? If so, how fast was the action?
I have no experience of it, but wonder if, as with alcohol, the action of the ammonia does not require a bit of time to work, especially on a cured finish. Straight ammonia will damage almost anything, of course, but I wonder if a dilute cleaning solution would be OK for the short time it is left on the surface. Any idea?
Joe Sullivan
Can you get by with using the wrong cleaner? Sure, but wrong is wrong.. Just like you shouldn't use oven cleaner to wipe up the spilt milk on your coffee table you shoudn't use ammonia on some finishes and shellac is one of them..
Oh, undoubtedly true. However, what I an trying to assess is the use of shellac on, say, kitchen surfaces, for use by people who don't know from finishes, and don't much care. Here is what we know for sure on the positive:
Shellac is easy to apply and will adhere to almost anything;
It is not very vulnerable to water rings -- in fact is better than some others;
Especially when cured for a couple of months it does not scratch any worse than other finishes, and is stronger than many including laquer;
Dry shellac is completely non-toxic and hypo-allergenic and has actually been approved bythe FDA as a food coating;
Shellac does not yellow or darken with age;
It is not easily damaged by UV light;
It dries quickly and can be applied in cold weather;
The carrier is alcohol, and therefore much less of an inhalation problem for those who apply it.
Setting aside all myths, we have a couple of negatives or possible negatives:
Spilled alcohol, if left in place, will cause damage;
Some finishes are tougher in high wear applications;
There MAY be a problem in the use of ammonia-based cleaners (though the extent remains to be seen)
Are there any other pros and cons?
"It is not very vulnerable to water rings -- in fact is better than some others"
It's not better than others, While water doesn't affect it immediately, most others can tolerate water much longer.
"Especially when cured for a couple of months it does not scratch any worse than other finishes, and is stronger than many including laquer"
It's hard, but it's not harder than well-cured lacquers. Well cured nitro stands up to abuse better and CAB-Acrylic and catalyzed lacquers are better than that.
"The carrier is alcohol, and therefore much less of an inhalation problem for those who apply it."
Alcohol fumes are toxic and are a risk for those who spray without proper protection.
"There MAY be a problem in the use of ammonia-based cleaners (though the extent remains to be seen"
There IS a problem with ammonia solutions. I have no experience with Windex or other cleaners of that type on shellac (yet). Concentrated ammonia cleaners, commonly sold and commonly used in the household, damage shellac on contact.
Rich
I don't doubt what you say about ammonia -- just asking about the time frame and dilution.
As to water rings -- there doubtless are some that are better, but shellac simply does not have much of a problem. Here I am speaking from actual experience. I just don't get rings in shellac unless it is left there for hours. Also, we commonly mop our shellac floors with household cleaners and water -- and have no problems ever.
Alcohol fumes are not ideal, but less bad that most other solvents -- not than water, though.
Joe,
I'm as ardent a fan of shellac as anyone here. I'm just discussing realities.
I'm glad to hear of your good experiences with shellac.
What "house hold cleaners" do you mop your floors with?
Rich
Rich:
There is no argument between us.
I am really just trying to calibrate the realities of shellac. I am beginning to think that this would be a good article for FW in about a year, after completion of a competently executed test of several pieces of wood treated with various finishes and subjected to conditions approximating the use they would recieve in the field.
My own experience has shown that there is little problem with toughness or water damage, either on furniture or on floors. My view is that is if the most traveled area of our floor (the walkspace between the kitchen and the dining room) has held up and retained its sheen for a full year, after being mopped a lot, toughness and water are not problems.
We all agree that alcohol damage is only an issue if a spill is not wiped up. It is generally agreed that ammonia is bad for shellac, but we don't know how long a normal cleaning solution would have to be in contact in order to do the damage. Might be seconds, might be hours. It would be worthwhile to know the answer.
We all agree that the alcohol issue would rule shellac out for certain kinds of furniture destined for customers. I really don't know about the ammonia issue yet. I believe you without reservation, but still want to know about time and dilution.
I am not sure what we use for floor mopping. I'll ask and get back to you.
Joe:
I think it would be a very interesting article. Especially if you support your conclusions with data from real world experiments.
Jim
Indeed so. Of course, although I am published a fair amount, I don't write for FW and would not know who to approach -- AND it wold be a long term project. I would think it would require at least a year.
Fun idea, though.
Well cured nitro stands up to abuse better and CAB-Acrylic and catalyzed lacquers are better than that.
Hmmm... not sure I can agree with respect to nitro versus CAB lacquer. It's situational.
According to AWI they're rated roughly equal for both wear resistance and impact resistance. CAB lacquer is rated a bit better than nitro for abrasion resistance, but it's rated lower for adhesion. And adhesion plays a really crucial role in some forms of durability. The best evidence of that is those cars and trucks you occasionally see on the road with the paint peeled off in large strips on the hood and the top of the cab. It doesn't matter how tough a finish material is, if it loses adhesion to what's underneath it then it's going to fail.
I will say that in my own experience with CAB lacquer my only complaint has been adhesion failure. As long as I don't lose adhesion then I've been very happy with it. But once it comes loose in one area the finish all around scratches off exceptionally easily. I recently had to refinish a piece that I'd sprayed CAB for this very reason.
Kevin,
Fortunately, I've had no adhesion problems and wasn't aware of any (and dread hearing of any, since those finished pieces are thousands of miles away).
What were the conditions that caused it? Did you use a sanding sealer? I've used only Sherwin Williams CAB Acrylic and their companion high solids sealer.
Rich
Well this most recent one was an unusual case in that I changed my mind on the topcoat midway through. I started out with Shellac and then changed my mind (still having a bitch of a time getting sprayed Shellac to level out decently with any build at all) and topcoated with SW CAB lacquer (which leveled out beautifully!). At the time I figured that since Shellac is so highly touted as a great barrier coat between dissimilar materials that I should have no problem shooting CAB over it. And I didn't... at first. But then a couple days later I absentmindedly picked at some goober in the finish on one end and the CAB came right off. Further inspection revealed that the surrounding CAB came off super easily. So I stripped it and reshot it with vinyl conversion varnish.
It was a personal project rather than something work related otherwise I would never have started out with Shellac nor would I have used CAB. I only stock a limited amount of CAB because SW recommends it as the best field touch-up material for the "M" vinyl conversion varnish.
One difference that I've noted between AWI's description of CAB as having "good" adhesion, compared to nitro's "very good", and Sherwin Williams' description of their own product is that in SW's commercial coatings book they don't say diddly about adhesion with the CAB. But on the previous page the 24% solids nitro is advertised as having "excellent adhesion". Reading inbetween the lines I would take that as a tacit admission by SW that it doesn't consider CAB to have all that great of adhesion... and perhaps AWI is slightly overstating CAB's case with respect to adhesion.
Sounds like your shellac may have had some wax in it. I have used nitrocellulose and CAB Acrylic over dewaxed shellac. The oldest piece is about 3 years. No report of any problems.
On the piece I put the CAB Acrylic over shellac, I could not get delivery of the sanding sealer and had to finish the project for christmas presents. (I now start Christmas presents in July). But when a manufacturer recommends a particular combination of their products, I listen, until I have been able to get enough experience otherwise.
The Sherwin Williams high solids sealer goes down so smoothly, and sands so easily, it's easier to use than . . . shellac. I started using it after reading glowing reports by Dick Boak of Martin Guitar. He used to be in charge of their finishing department. If he says it's good, it's good!
Rich
It was Zinsser "Bulls Eye" Shellac. My understanding is that this is a dewaxed product. But perhaps not.
Zinser Bulls Eye is not dewaxed. Their Seal Coat product is.
Ah well there ya go. Mystery solved.
Let me add a bit of nuance about the Zinsser shellac products. If you look closely all of their shellacs carry the Bullseye brand label, though the I believe the graphics de-emphasize it on the Seal Coat label. So I think the technical answer is that the product line includes Bullseye Clear (bleached shellac with wax) and Bullseye Amber (orange shellac with wax) and Bullseye Seal Coat (which is a lighter orange shellac (blonde, but not super blonde) that is dewaxed. There is even Bullseye Polyurethane.
Thank you very much, Steve. That helps! Consulting the label on my can I can see that this is Bulls Eye "Clear" which means it has wax. And that little tidbit of info puts some past work related adhesion failure issues into a whole new perspective.
I wish Zinsser would more clearly label these products or, failing that, include a warning on the back label concerning the wax issue.
The can that I used is actually from my work. And we'd purchased it expressely for the purpose of using it as an adhesion-promoting barrier coat on a funky oddball project we did last year. When it spectacularly failed to perform as I'd wanted we ended up reinventing the whole thing and found another way to accomplish the same task.
Rarily using Shellac I had been under the impression that Zinsser products were dewaxed and thus hadn't specified any particular type of Zinsser shellac when our driver was sent to pick it up.
So this is valuable feedback.
Thanks!
Kevin:
Steve is spot on correct. The whole attraction of Seal Coat is that it is completely dewaxed. It is also a pre-mixed 2# cut that has been processed to have a shelf life of a year or two -- but those are pretty secondary issues.
thanks, joe
Joe Sullivan
pretty good sumation, I might comment about #2 a little because water rings can be a problem... it depends on how long they are left in place.
and on #2 in the negative, some products are tougher in high wear applications..
that can be true but doesn't reflect just how easy shellac is to repair. if you put some of those tough durable finishes on at some point you'll need to remove them because ,,,. well it's a high wear area!
So out come the sanders and grinders etc.. and the dust flies and the fumes are created and drying time and etc..
Or you bring out your lambs wool applicator mop and wipe another coat on and it dries inside of 15 minutes!
As for inhaling alcohol, I'm not sure that I can say that.. I mean it has never bothered me, but some people are really bothered by it.. If you go into a bar and the fumes really affect you in a negative way then probably you should wear a respirator when appling shellac.. (also because the actual ingrediant used to denature alcohol varies some denatured alcohol could bother some people while other brands/ mixes might not!
Mike_D
Ammonia isn't good for hardened shellac but it can tolerate a little bit if quickly removed. My windows are shellaced. I try to control the overspray because I suspect long term it will cause problems..On the other hand it goes on so easy! I mean Butt simple! and repairs even easier so if damaged it's barely any hassle at all to repair!
That's where shellac really shines compared to other finishes. if any other finish is damaged it's a big messy deal to repair it.. Not shellac.. In all honesty I wouldn't hesitate to repair it in a tuxedo! (and I'm the worlds sloppiest painter!) If I spill some shellac on my clothing, as long as I can wash it, it will come out!
By overthinning shellac you avoid runs,drips,brush marks, and typical amateur mistakes.The second coat mets into the first coat and the third coat melts into the previous two coats..
One of the ways to remove shellac from a brush is to dilute all the shellac you can with senatured alcohol and then spray windex into the brush the ammonia in the brush then rinses out with warm water.
(or you can just let the brush harden and next time you use it it will quickly soften)
I intend to use it on my kitchen cabinets, she who must be obeyed will simply need to learn not to use oven cleaner or windex as a cleaning agent.. <G> Wipe them off with a damp cloth? Sure but then dry them, don't leave them wet!
Hi Frenchy,O.K, I finished my first test piece with shellac over the past two days.
I used Bulls-Eye clear, waxed, 3# cut from H.D.I cut it 50/50 with DNA from HD, and started learning!My test piece is a 2 foot by 1 foot yellow pine "top" made up of 2x4 stock, jointed, planed, and glued up. Sanded to 220 grit.I flooded the piece with the 1.5# cut with a brush, and sanded lightly with the 220 sponge after 15 minutes. Looked like heck, but proceeded to repeat after 15, 30, and 90 minute intervals. That looked "o.k." after drying overnight, but I definitely had high and low spots, so I continued with 3 more coats over the course of the day and let dry overnight. Still looked "o.k.", but nothing to write home about.Then I took 0000# steel wool and Johnson's Paste Wax and really rubbed it down hard. Then buffed it out with a t-shirt. Finally, it looks terrific!From your earlier posts, I get the impression that I worked too hard to get to this final finish. Can you tell from this post what I should change to get to "terrific" earlier-on in the process?Thanks for your help.Mike DEdited: Hummm, the little grey cells grow tired. I forgot to mention that the day before I started in with the shellac, I wiped on a good coat of BLO to improve the color and figure of the rather drab pine stock I'd chosen, let sit for a few minutes, wiped off thoroughly, and allowed to dry overnight before starting the great shellac experiment.Could this have added to my problem with achieving a fast finish?
Mike D
Edited 3/24/2007 9:45 pm ET by Mike_D
MikeD
I'm not a fan of BLO, In my humble opinion shellac brings out the color grain of the wood perfectly.
So I've never compared a BLO first coat to a shellac bare coat. It would be pure conjecture for me to assume that you either did something wrong or could improve it without the BLO.
I use shellac that's thinner but that's because I'm a lousy painter.. If you can paint without going back over then you can probably do better than I.
I suspect that if you wanted the really deep gloss you can get with shellac you could have stopped with the first three coats you put on. Then color sanded it.. rubbing down with steel wool without color sanding would be the wrong move in my opinion..
Do you know what I mean by color sanding? If not I'll be glad to explain. It's fast and depending on the size of piece you are working with can be done in a short time..
I'm too lazy to rub hard (which is why I don't french polish) I do like deep and shiney so I will if the piece is worthy color sand.
Hi Frenchy, thanks for answering!Yes, please - what is color sanding.Mike D
I added the BLO step, as some report that it really improves the depth of wood. If I hadn't already put the "top" to work, I'd be tempted to finish the flip side without the BLO for a direct comparison.However, the top is now part of my table saw. I bought an Excalibur saw blade guard to help keep my fingers on my hand, and I had to make the saw 10 inches wider to make it fit without major reworking. My shiny new extension looks great! Why waste time making a shop piece "just to work" when you can learn something new about making something nice at the same time?It seems that I bought a table saw, rather than a cabinet or contractors saw, to save space in my shop, and since then I've been adding modifications to it to make it large enough to make furniture with (you know, extension tables, etc.) This seems really odd to me in retrospect, since my father-in-law made great looking furniture using an old sears 8" table saw that I'm sure he bought, used, in 1930. It had a top about 10 inches square.
Edited 3/24/2007 10:24 pm ET by Mike_D
I've been following the shellac posts on Breaktime. Thanks Hastings for pulling the how-to posts together. I'm ready to refinish some decent Ethan Allen solid maple bedroom furniture. I need to stain it darker to match a new Louis Phillip style sleigh bed - a reddish brown satin. Here's a photo of the bed finish that I need to match.I have one nightstand with all the old finish removed, bare maple sanded to 220. Question is, what type of stain do I apply before the shellac? Minwax oil-based? How long for the stain to "dry" before shellacing? Blond or amber shellac? Will the shellac further darken a stain finish?
Will shellac be too glossy?I know I should do a test area, but want to get on the right track, when choosing shellac.
Thanks
Southbay,
your last question first.. Will shellac be too glossy?
NO but you can make it glossier if you want to.. It will never be plastic looking like polyurethanes are. Instead it will have a deep rich look no one ever seems to find offensive..
Stains are an extremely personal thing.. some stains which I find offensive have found favor with others while the rare case when I use stain for stuff others comment that it shows the grain too much and isn't "the right color"
Stains differ so much in their application drying etc. that you really must test the piece before deciding.. and yes shellac will add some color to wood so what appears perfect will seem a little darker once shellaced..
I kept shellacing simple because I don't want people afraid of it. It's too great a finish to be frightened from.. however there are all sorts of permutations you can do to shellac if you're inclined which further complicates matters.
I'm afraid test peices really are a must if you want to match something. As A general rule stain things a shade lighter than you think you should let the stain dry according to instructions and then do my three quick coats. adjust from there.
Frenchy is right that finish will darken stained wood. However you can get a fairly good approximation of what it'll look like immediately after you've applied it - i.e., before the stain's solvents have flashed off. Once the stain is even partially dry you won't get a very accurate idea of the final color.
Also keep in mind when choosing a stain/final finish that the higher the sheen the more it will bring out the warm tones in the stain/wood. Conversely, the lower the sheen the more that the warm tones will be muted. And a wet stain is really going to give you an idea of what it will look like under a glossy finish. So if you are wanting a low sheen then samples are a definite must.
To my eye that sample picture looks like it has a toner on it. A toner being a layer of stain that is sprayed on but not wiped off... so that it's sitting literally on top of the wood. Assuming that you don't have spray equipment I think you are going to need to do at least a two-step finish (the number of "steps" is how many layers of color are applied), maybe even a three-step. I know that sounds complicated and in a way it is. But in a way it's actually a lot easier because no single step has to get you 100% of the final color - which affords a degree of control.
To replicate a toner without spray equipment I think you'll probably need to use a glaze, which is basically a wipe stain that's applied over the initial coat of finish material - in this case I assume that's going to be shellac.
Maple doesn't take color all that easily because it's so hard and dense. So if it was me I'd probably go with a three-step color process starting with a dye directly to the wood, followed by a wipe stain (I'd go with a gel I think), followed by an initial coat of shellac and then glazed to get the final color match (a gel stain again ought to work well).
Full disclosure time: I'm a professional. That doesn't make me any better. What it means is that I use spray equipment to achieve color matches - which is why I recognize that color sample for what it is. So you're going to want to seek out more detailed info from a finisher who has more experience with hand-applied techniques to replicate the factory finish. I know that I've seen episodes of The New Yankee Workshop where Norm uses strictly hand-applied techniques such as I've mentioned above to achieve a final finish that looked remarkably similar to your sample picture. It's not a matter of being complicated or difficult! It's more a matter of bypassing a lot of frustration trying to replicate that look with just a single type of stain. Once you're done I'm very confident that you'll realize that it wasn't nearly as difficult as it seemed before you started. So take heart. I'm actually trying to help here. :-)
If we can coax him out I'd bet that Peter Gedrys could give you much more useful feedback on a suggested finish schedule to meet your needs. Or you could just contact him via the "Ask The Experts" interface.
Thanks Kevin, and Frenchy.
Yes Kevin, a production finish that would minimize steps would be appropriate for the bed.
It is a new, factory made piece, discovered a Made in Vietnam label on the footboard.
The bed is sturdy and appears to be well made. Solid wood and veneers (on solids I was told) of unidentified species. Here is a closer photo of the bed finish. I gather you could apply shellac and then add tint between shellac coats if it's not dark enough? So stain - shellac - glaze - shellac - shellac.Thanks
southbay,
That certainly would be my approach!
There certainly are a wide variety of colored shellacs available and I'm sure one or more of them would get you much of the way there. And tinting between coats could get you the rest of the way, colorwise. But if by tinting between coats you are referring to dyes then I'd have to say that while you could probably get most of the color match it still wouldn't look the same. I'd bet whatever you paid for the bed that the Vietnamese finishers used pigments rather than dyes and the only way to match a pigmented finish is to use pigments. Dyes are too transparent. So I guess it is a question of how closely you want to match the bed.
Here's a good test to help you determine what the existing finish is: As you view the bed do the oblique angles look more like a solid color than like a translucent finish, whereas head-on it looks like a translucent stain? If so then that's a sure sign that there is pigment on top of the wood - as opposed to a dye or a pigment soaked/wiped INTO the wood. Whether it's from a sprayed toner or a wiped glaze over a sealer... hard to say. Likewise, this test won't eliminate the possibility that there is a dye and/or wipe stain underneath. But that's the easiest way to break down at least that one aspect of an existing finish you are trying to match. And most of the time, but not always, a glaze or a toner is used as a second color step. So the odds are that if the bed has pigment on top of the wood then there likely is another color step underneath it.
Hi again, Frenchy.To answer your question, no, I don't know what color sanding is, so if you don't mind explaining, that'd be great.I really like how the shellac finish came out on my test piece. Mike D
MikeD
Color sanding is simply the process of using finner and finer sand paper to flatten a finish to get as much depth out of it as possible..
If you look into a smooth lake you can see the bottom much further than if you look into a choppy lake.
This may cost a bit to start but if you keep your sand paper in a baggy so it doesn't get grit you can use the same piece over and over and over again.
Go to your great hardware store and buy sandpaper in every grade from 220 right up thru 4000 (I keep going but then I'm extremely anal).
Now the "trick" is flat.. your hand isn't so don't use your hand.. use a block of wood or a firm rubber sanding block, whatever.
I start in most cases with 320 but if the surface isn't level I might shift back to 220.
All I want to do is make everything satin.. I stop just as soon as it's satin. Be darn careful around edges and corners.. extremely easy to put too much pressure on a corner or edge and go thru the shellac and into the wood. IF you do stop and reapply the shellac same 15/30/1 hour.
If you had a really powerfull microscope and you looked right now you'd see what appear to be 10,000 foot mountains and valleys.
we're going to grind off those mountain tops without going into the valleys..
Select your next grit paper and sand lightly to remove those 10,000 foot mountains down to 5,000 feet. then select your next grit and remove them down to 2500 feet. etc. keep repeating right on thru the 4000 grit.
You'll be amazed at how little pressure and effort is really required. That's why you can save the sand paper and keep it for years.
If you aren't happy a light polish will add depth and if you're as anal as I tend to be you polish in various grits starting with a medium.
Cool!
Thanks, Frenchy.
Mike D
Hey Frenchy, have you ever used felt blocks? I've never used a sanding block that I liked better than the felt ones. Hard to find, though.
Kevin
I used to use them sanding cars before they came out with the rubber ones, I was taught by a real old timer who thought bondo was a mortal sin (lead is the only thing)
I haven't seen any in decades.
Yeah, I was taught to use them by an old timer too. Although he was a finisher rather than a car painter. What made me think of them is that I just saw some for sale a couple weeks ago at a Portland woodworker's store called WoodCrafters (not to be confused with the national chain, WoodCraft). That means that someone somewhere must still be making them.
Hi again, Frenchy,
I went back to my test top and thought about my process while I looked at it. 1st, let me say that it looks terrific. I'm really sold on shellac as a finish.
2nd, your description of color sanding and reflection on my part leads me to conclude that the very soft pine that I used resulted in the softer parts of the grain sanding away faster than the harder parts, causing the hard parts to stand proud. Then, as I sanded between coats, I took all the finish off the high parts as I attempted to degloss all the finish, high and low grain, both. That resulted in a lot of extra work until I got the surface actually flat. At that point, things started to look up!
I'm going to try this next with maple and see if my guesses are right.
Thanks for your patience!
Mike
Mike D
I'm glad it's working out for you.. I seldom ever work with pine so you may very well be correct in your assumptions.. See, now I've learned form you, isn't this place wonderful?
To Frenchy (and Rich and Hal and all of you shellac experts out there) - another shellac question from another shellac newbie.
I'm having difficulty getting that even, glass-like shellac finish. I've read as many of the shellac posts as I can find (and read Flexner's and Jewitt's books), and thinning the shellac has certainly helped a lot (thanks for all your instruction Frenchy). I'm using Zinsser's SealCoat de-waxed shellac (already cut to a 2 lb cut in the can) and cutting that 50% with DA. Should I thin it even more?
I'm applying with a good brush and really forcing myself to walk away so that I don't keep trying to "touch it up." Applying thin layers and not thinking of "building up" a finish like with varnish, has been helpful.
And I've tried sanding with 220 or 0000 steel wool between every session, or every 2-3 sessions. But I'm still left with some ridges - not huge, not as bad as when I first started - but still there. I've even gotten a couple of "bulls-eyes" - I'm assuming that I got a drop of concentrated DA on the finish?? Jewitt's book states that this is due to to silicone contamination but I don't know how any silicone could even be on the wood ....
So ...... should I keep going with more coats (sessions)? Seems like many of you don't think that more than 2-4 sessions are necessary, right? I think Jewitt said 7-8 coats though ..... ? Or would your color sanding and then a polish fix this?
Frenchy - how many coats/sessions do you put down before you do the color sanding?
Or should I pad rather than brush? I've wondered if I couldn't pad on a 2nd coat over the 1st brushed coat during a session and use some pressure to smooth out the finish? Probably not, eh? - 2nd to the fast dry time, etc.? But ...... wouldn't a very dilute shellac/DA mix padded on cause the ridges of shellac to go back into solution with the DA and then flow into the valleys ??
I think that I'm going to try some padding this week. But on those pieces that have ridges do I need to strip the shellac and start over? Or can I sand and pad the ridges away?
I've sprayed shellac on as well and gotten a better finish, but I have a very small shop and a small compressor and can basically only spray outside and spray slowly (so, on a rainy, windy day like today, I can't spray).
So .... a long post - please work your way through all of my questions and let me know what you all think. Thanks for turning me on to shellac.
aj kelly
aj, You need to get the entire surface of the shellac level. You need to level all those brush marks and ridges. Use 220 grit on a rubber or felt sanding block when sanding flat surfaces. When sanding curved surfaces, "break" the back of the paper by pulling it over the edge of a workbench a few times so you can get it to conform to the curved finish as you lightly scuff the surface. Once you can easily get the entire surface to look evenly "matte" or "satin" you are done applying shellac - there's enough on the wood. If you can't easily achieve the even "ground-glass" look, you need a few more applications AND scuff sanding. After the entire surface is even, you use finer and finer grits of abrasive, starting with 320 water proof paper up through 400, 600, 1000 (using mineral spririts as a lubricant). Then automotive rubbing compound (red) then polishing compound (white), then swirl remover depending on how glossy you want the surface. Or, you can learn to fo "false french polish" (padding) after leveling the shellac to a perfectly uniform appearance. Rich
Edited 3/26/2007 11:18 am ET by Rich14
OK, thanks. I think that the color sanding and polishing is what I need. I've been trying to get a perfect finish before moving on to those steps. And I haven't tried the wet sanding with mineral spirits, so I'll try that. Also, I was cheating and not always using a sanding block.
I'm now getting to a point where I am getting that even ground-glass appearance, so it's time to try the wet "color sanding."
aj kelly
ajkelly
The first question I need to ask is how smooth is the wood? Are those ridges the result of imperfections in the wood or application of shellac?
If it's the wood then the solution is obvious, smooth out the wood. Now I'm gonna chance offending some here but if you've carefully hand planned and hand scraped the surface you're fighting a battle which I've never won. Those wonderfull grooves the result of real skill in hand planning will battle you throughout the finish process and you've dramatically added to the difficulty of doing a deep glass smooth finish..
IT's been done. I've seen it done, just not by me.. Maybe Rich can explain the process which I strongly suspect involves the dreaded french polish. (I say dreaded because I don't have that level of energy or dedication)..
If it's the result of your application of shellac, then the solution is two fold.
First do it really fast and never go back over anything, second flood it on. If you don't have lots of runs you are most likely brushing too slow. If it's thin enough the runs fix themselves. Start on top and let it flood it's way down.
This is scary stuff. if you tend to be a neat person who likes to control things it's really hard to let go like this. I'm anal as heck and the idea of virtually dumping a can of shellac on my project scared the heck out of me, but in effect that's what works best.. If it's thin enough it will work.
Rich is absolutely correct about color sanding.. he gave a good description which I won't try to enhance.
The sanding block is the key.. you want flat? you can't get flat with your hand.. look it it, your palm.. Is that flat or are there grooves between your fingers? Do your fingers curl and bend? That's why you need a sanding block. Don't sand without one..
PS chances are you won't need to strip back what you've applied. sand with a block adn follow Richs advice to the letter and comeback with further questions. We like to help..
Edited 3/26/2007 11:48 am ET by frenchy
Frenchy,
The wood was sanded very smooth - so that's not the problem.
Your instructions to thin it out and apply quickly and leave it have been helpful. But I still think that maybe I'm being too stingy with the shellac. I'm not flooding it on (not as much as it sounds like you are), as I was afraid that it would set up in ridges - as that's what it was doing before I thinned it enough.
So, can I flood shellac onto a vertical surface? I'm finishing my bookcase and I've been doing one side at a time - while it is horizontal. Won't gravity pull the shellac down and cause runs/ridges - even if it is thinned?
And, how many coats do you guys put down before you start color sanding and polishing? 2, 3, 8? And, correct me if I'm wrong, you just put down one coat at a time at 15"/30"/60" intervals - you don't keep adding coats per session until the shellac tacks up (as some of the books state)?
And, as I stated in my post to Rich, I wasn't always using a sanding block - so I've taken your advice to heart and I'm now using one.
aj kelly
ajkelly,
I flood horizontal and vertical surfaces with equal abandonement, I mean I really want it to run because that assurses me I'm getting enough on. Thinning it keeps the runs from being a problem. If you use thick shellac of course you will get notable runs.. however wash coats like I apply just disappear.
I think if you understand that I shellac all the timbers in my house with shellac you'll understand that some are vertical some are horizontal and I even apply some upside down. (Lately I cheat and spray those since I really don't like all that shellac running down my arm and into my armpit)
But that should indicate just how much shellac I apply.. look at the pictures just to get an idea of all the surfaces.
Nope one shot, that's all I get!
if I miss something well I got two more chances to get it don't I? <G> no I don't deliberately skip spots but I have missed them and by the thrid coat you can't tell.
I go for durable gloss, which means in most cases I stop after the third coat. However if I'm going for furniture gloss I might add a fourth coat depending on....
(gut feeling, weather, how much I have left in the can etc..) The real idicator to me is can I sand it to a matt finish without breaking thru. Once I can do that I've got enough paint on. More depth doesn't come from thicker paint but flatter paint (ie sanding) I refer you back to my original post where I compared the apparent depth of water between calm days and choppy days.
This is a separate but related question (and I think that I'll create a new post also): What finish should I use for my daughters storage locker/bookcase?
Here's a link to the Ikea product that I'm using as a model: http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?topcategoryId=15567&catalogId=10103&storeId=12&productId=47813&langId=-1&categoryId=15664&chosenPartNumber=S49819508
My wife wants it built like yesterday and I don't want to spend a lot of time on finishing it. It is going to be baltic birch ply and I've got some purpleheart that I was thinking of using as a face-frame.
I'd like it to be somewhat water resistant. I can spray or brush (or even use wipe-on oil/varnishes for that matter).
So, second to my concern about water exposure and not wanting to spend lots of time finishing this, I'm leaning away from shellac. What are your ideas?
aj kelly
ajkelly,
If water exposure is a concern then spar varnish a good grade of marine spar varnish. I prefer Epiphanes because I've had the most durable finish with that brand and the best as well.
Spendy as heck but what the heck if cost is a consideration there are other less expensive brands on the market..
I don't know of any way to do a proper Varnish finish fast.. a day drying time if there isn't a lot of humidty present per coat and that's still rushin it. The guys who do boat show finishes leave it a week or more per coat.
Good morning Frenchy .
I read some where above something about shellac over tung oil . What would be the point in that approach, and is it sound?
Thank you for your reply
Amox
Hi all,
I have never used shellac. I would like to try it. Is there any supplier that is better than another. Where do you all buy your shellac ?
Thanks, Paul
colebearanimals,
I assume that you would like to do things as easily as possible? If so I buy Zinzzlers at the local big box stores. It's a three pound cut which means that you should add about two gallons of denatured alcohol to a gallon of Zinzzlers and then do three coats, wait 15 minutes after first coat sand apply second coat, wait a half hour and then apply third coat..
Thanks frenchy. Is there any advantage to using it in flake form, or does the hassle out weigh the benifits?
Paul
The advantage to flakes is you can get them in a dewaxed form,and in different "colors" blonde,amber, garnet , etc. The shellac you buy at stores includes wax, unless you get the zinzer sealcoat. You can tint the shellac with dye( like trans tint) if you want to.
Thank you for you're imput,
Paul
colebearanimals,
Your question is pretty well answered.. for me the hassle and expense of mixing flakes far outwieghs the advantage of doing do.
3# Zinzzlers is about $70.00 cheaper than doing the same thing with flakes. plus you open a can give it a quick stir and add your denatured alcohol. inside of a minute you can be putting on the shellac. With flakes you've got quite a bit of work yet to do,...(not to mention the difficulty of finding the flakes you want, ordering them, waiting for delivery, etc.....
frenchy, The price is about the same comparing Zinser's standard "Bullseye" or the blonde, dewaxed "Sealcoat" and mixing from flakes and denatured alcohol. Here's a page of prices for various types of shellac flakes and alcohol: http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/ShellacPricing800.html It comes out to about $36-40 for a gallon of 2 lb cut blonde dewaxed (similar to Sealcoats's price) or about $10-15 cheaper for an amber waxed variety either Zinser or roll-your-own. There are advantages both ways. The advantage is definitely with the pre-mixed Zinser types if you have a lot of area to cover all at once (although a gallon is a LOT of shellac, and the premixed WILL expire). If there are many smaller projects in your future, buy the flakes, keep them in a tightly sealed jar, and they'll be ready for mixing up small quantities just about indefinitely. Rich
Thanks rich 14,
As you can see looking at my house I keep thinking in big numbers, I want to contact Zinzzlers and find out if they sell shellac in 55 gallon drums. <G>
I need to remember most of you work in tiny numbers..small pieces not 1000 bd.ft. lots and massive equipment.. <G>
But I compared the prices I saw at my local Rocklers store to what a gallon of 3# cut costs for my numbers..
frenchy, I wish I had that house and the wood in it to finish! I am about to embark on a 3000 sqft maple flooring project, a bathroom remodel, a bedroom with built-in furniture/cabinets, a large kitchen remodel and about an equal amount of built-in cabinets in a hallway/living room area. Lots of maple and LOTS of exotic tropical hardwoods. That's a fair amount of construction and finishing to keep me occupied for a while. I may need to look into buying finish in 55 gallon drums for this one! Wanna help? Rich
Rich14,
anyplace nearby? (lake Minnetonka) IF not I might be able to help in other ways.
Just kidding! BTW, I had a strange reaction between some "blonde" shellac and cocobolo today. I bought the Liberon shellac flakes from Woodcraft in Chandler, AZ a few days ago. It looked a little more amber than I like. When I applied it, the cocobolo (a decorative egg-shaped "object d'art) turned from its very-slightly-reddish tan-browns and blacks and yellow streaks instantly to a vivid over-all reddish-purple hue as though I had stained it with a concentrated red-purple dye. I've never experienced that kind of "color reaction" with shellac and a wood before. Interesting, but not desired. I've ordered some ultra blonde (platinum) shellac and I'll try again after sanding back to bare wood. The same shellac is just about colorless on maple, which is what I anticipated.Rich
It sounds like a reaction caused by the denatured alcohol. Not the alcohol itself but rather whatever denaturing solvent was added.
Where I buy my cocobolo they typically will slather blond shellac on one surface to highlight the coloration and everything - they cater to instrument makers who care a great deal about these things - and it doesn't seem to faze the cocobolo. But I know that acetone will readily dissolve the color in cocobolo and that means that MEK probably does just as well since it's extremely similar to acetone. I'm told that some denatured alcohol is denatured with MEK. So that could be the source of the reaction.
An easy way to test this would be to moisten a rag with your denatured alcohol you are using and wipe the cocobolo with it.
Kevin,The entire object is now covered with shellac, so I can't try the alcohol alone on unfinished wood. I think you're right that it's the alcohol causing the coloration as the shellac solution is very dilute - somewhat less than a 1# cut. Over time, as the shellac hardens, it seems to be less red, so maybe the MEK theory is right and the denaturing chemicals are evaporating. I'm going to let the shellac fully harden and then rub it out to see the final effect. Then I'll sand it down again and test with the denatured alcohol alone. I've always finished cocobolo with lacquer. I want to use CAB Acrylic but I have none on hand right now and decided to experiment with shellac.
Hmm . . . the can says, "contains methanol." No telling what else might be in there, or it might just be methanol as the denaturing agent. I'm guessing they would list additional ingredients, if any, for the poison treatment warning for medical personnel.Rich
ForestGirl started a discussion in I think the General Discussion folder about DeNatured Alcohol and what all is in it besides the alcohol. I think you'll find it interesting. Apparently trace solvents aren't all that uncommon an ingredient besides the usual ethyl and methyl alcohols. An MSDS from the manufactorer is likely the only way to be sure what exactly is in yours.
After reading your previous post I grabbed a rag, doused it with the brand of DNA that I have and wiped a piece of Cocobolo with it. I got a little orange but not so much that it couldn't simply have been mostly dust from when it was milled. Which is why I suspected that your problem might be more driven by other ingredients besides the methyl and ethyl alcohols since that's what my can of DNA lists as ingredients. In any case, the surface of my Cocobolo didn't seem to be affected by my DNA other than that it got wet. Although in all fairness the alcohol in Shellac stays in contact with the wood longer than it would just being wiped on the surface. So my test might not necessarily eliminate the DNA itself.
Edited 2/19/2007 1:21 pm by Kevin
The same shellac solution causes no color reaction at all with Brazilian rosewood or Santos rosewood. The shellac behaves exactly as I exprected it to do. It simply makes the wood darker when wet, then dries down to barely perceptible. The color reaqction happens only with this piece of cocobolo I have. Although I'm pretty sure it's cocobolo, it could be some other exotic. Interesting. Rich
Cocobolo is a member of the Rosewood family. So I wouldn't think it'd react all that differently.
It is odd.
It is odd. Santos is not a true rosewood, that's why I tried the shellac on both it and brazilian which IS dalbergia. I wanted to see what would happen with disimilar species. At any rate, I've removed the shellac from the cocobolo and can now say it's the wood itself that behaves uniquely. Any wetting agent, alcohol, mineral spirits, Deft nitro lacquer, lacquer thinner, but NOT water, causes the intense apparent color. In it's sanded state, the wood is mostly light tan, just a hint of pink, very close in appearance to the Santos. A solvent, or finish just makes it deep redish-purple and it stays that way under dried finish. It returns to light tan when using solvent alone and that flashes off. It must have something to do with the waxes and oils in this sample and light scattering on the sanded vs wet or finished surface. Rich
Rich,
Just out of curiosity, what brand of DNA did you use?
Peter, Klean Strip S-L-X Denatured Alcohol. On the back of the can - Barr Products # QSL26, W. M. Barr & Co., Inc. Memphis, TN 38113, http://www.kleanstrip.com
Edited 2/19/2007 10:48 pm ET by Rich14
I've been trying to perfect the shellac finish on my box. I've layed on 10-12 applications and can't quite get it "streak free". I'm using blonde sealer, right out of the can, application from a squirt bottle onto a muslin "pad". It just will not go on without streaks. Its close, but not close enough. What do I do to eliminate the streaked appearance after padding the shellac?
KB
KB,
Allow the shellac to harden for at least 48 hrs. Lightly level all the unevenness with 320-400 grit on a felt or rubber sanding block (assuming the surface you are working is flat). Use sandpaper without the block over curved areas. Make sure the suface is absolutely even because ridges or unevenness will become exaggerated again with padding. Also, once unevenness or streaking starts, you must stop and let the shellac completely harden, because the wet pad just picks up the soft streaky shellac and makes it worse.
Dilute a portion of the shellac to a 1# cut or even 1/2# cut. Don't squirt it onto the surface of the applicator (rubber). That will also deposit undisolved shellac and other "stuff" in the solution. Apply the shellac to the inside material of the applicator. The outer wrapping should be completely clean and act as a "filter" for the shellac.
The outer covering of the applicator must have no creases from folding or any seams.
Apply a drop of mineral oil or linseed oil to the applicator for lubrication. It makes a big difference in the padding action and helps to thin out the film of shellac as it's being applied. Add alcohol to the pad as it gets dry, not more shellac solution, until there seems to be nothing left in the pad. Then add a little more shellac and a little more lubricant.
I've used a product called Qualasole from Behlen with very good results. It's a "padding lacquer" containing nitrocellulose lacquer, solvents, lubricants (linseed oil). alcohols in a propietary formula. It produces a glass-like sheen and goes down in a microscopically-thin layer. I think it's easier to use than trying to pad shellac. But after I got good with Qualasole, I found I could then do the same thing with dilute shellac as I described above. Once you finally "get it" (the padding technique) it's hard to make it go wrong.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks! I had it about 3/4 right. I've ordered some "rubbers" from Homestead to get it right. THanks again for your advise.
KB
Frenchy:Well you've convinced me to use shellac for a project that I have just started! It's a pity that Knots doesn't have an area where members could post files, instead of leaving these nuggets spread all over the place. In this thread and others, you have created a great beginners guide to shellac.Any chance you could save me, and perhaps others, the time of hunting and pecking through the forum to aggregate your advice into a one-pager that could be e-mailed?I realize that I'm on dangerous ground here and giving a periodontal examination to an excellent horse that was just gifted! And should you not want to, I would quite understand and will cheerfully go to Plan A.Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and enthusiasm.Cordially,Hastings
Hastings,
No problem..
glad to help..
I don't know where you are coming from so just ask and I'll be glad to elaborate.. same if I'm too basic for you.. just skip over what you already know..
OK go to HomeDepot, Lowes, your local hardware store, paint store or some other place and pick up some Zinssers Bullseye shellac. (it's a yellow can says clear on the bottom)..
Pick up some denatured alcohol in a three to one ratio (three quarts of denatured alcohol to one quart of shellac, three gallons to one gallon)..
while you're there buy a good paint brush probably bigger than you would think you need and a 3M sanding sponge 220 grit (the yellow one)
Now it's important if you want a really deep finish that the finish be really smooth. 150 grit is too coarse. I go at least 220 and if it's something that will be displayed I don't think it's possible to go too fine..
Remove all dust etc. open the can and stir it for a bit 60 seconds is enough, 30 seconds if your lazy, go ahead use the paint brush and get everything off the bottom.. (it settles) now mix at a better than two to one ratio. two parts of denatured alcohol and one part of shellac.. make sure that you use denatured alcohol not paint thinner or something else..
pour it into a container with a better than 2 to one ratio.. three to one is fine.. there is no such thing as too thin shellac!
When you paint it on.. you must go fast.. Fast!fast is real important carefull is not what you want to do.. don't worry about runs drips missed areas and etc.. cover everything fast.. Shellac dries real fast and if you go back you will have all sorts of problems..
15 minutes after you're done the shellac is dried. now you'll want to sand the nubs off.. that's what that 3M sponge is for .. just a light hit and a lick.. a second, second and a half per square foot maximum.. run your hand over it to ensure you got all the nubs off..
Don't try to "fix" things.. just remove the nubs..
Wipe off the sanding dust and give it it's second coat..The new shellac melts into the first coat and "fixes" everything for you..
this one will take 30 minutes to dry. feel if the nubs are still gone, if not sand them off with the same sanding sponge.. (I use one sponge in 500 sq. ft. of hardwood)
after a half hour is up give it the third and final coat..
Now if you are happy with the results you'll have a great finish that repairs extremely easily and is very durable.. you can if you want color sand and polish or french polish if you have a lot of ambition..
Frenchy:That's great! Just want a wanted. I think as it as "Shellac for Dummies".I will copy this to a word file for reference.Thank you again for taking the time.Hastings
<!----><!----><!---->Hastings<!----><!---->
You had better save #83 of 86 in this thread too because that info wont be found anywhere outside of this thread (and a Thank You to Rich). I followed the 3 coat Frenchy process, which got me started, but my project demanded a little more finesse.
Regards,
KB
KB (and Rich):Thank you for drawing my attention to this. I have added it to my reference file.Hastings
Another newbie question...What's the difference between using waxed/de-waxed shellac? Why would I choose one over the other for a specific task?Thanks in advance..
huskerinVA
Well if you intend to put some other finish over it use dewaxed and if you intend to finish it in shellac use waxed..
(overly simple but should help)
Frenchy has it right, but I would add, unless you want the color of seedlac (dark and not very clear) for antiques, you might as well always use dewaxed shellac since it can be had in essentially all colors from garnet to ultra blonde. Dewaxed is slightly (very slightly) clearer and a bit more water resistant than shellac with wax. (And, just for completeness, Zinsser Clear has been chemically bleached to get its light color (not just refined like super blonde). The process does reduce the durability of the Clear (which used to be called White) compared to the other "Orange" shellacs.
Husker,In addition to frenchy's and Steve's responses, I use dewaxed, simply because I use very pale shellac and it's necessary to remove the wax along with the natural dye to get the paleness variety (ultra blonde, platinum) I like to use.Shellac is unique. It's hard to describe how satisfying a finish it is to use, and how beautiful it can be in the various ways there are to "finish it." There is simply nothing to dislike in the way it handles when you get used to its characteristics.Sanding waxed varieties of shellac to level them between applications is unlike sanding any other finish (except specialty vinyl sanding sealers). Waxed shellac sands very easily and completely. Dewaxed also sands easily, but not quite like the waxed varieties.The best way to get any feel for the stuff is to get a few different kinds and carry out a complete finishing schedule on a few different woods. I suggest either mahogany or walnut, maple, padauk, and either koa or a highly figured rosewood like cocobolo or brazilian. (Or use all those woods) Use a dark amber waxed shellac, a blonde waxed shellac and a very pale dewaxed shellac.You can fill the woods or leave the pores open.Finish those woods with those shellacs and you'll know why finishers love shellac.Rich
Why some finishers like it.
I'm not knocking it. And I would readily agree that a properly done French Polish yields a finish that brings out the inner beauty of wood in a way that nothing else does... or perhaps can. But even so I personally don't like it and I know other experienced finishers who also don't like it. As with every other finish material ever used by mankind, there are trade-offs involved, even with shellac.
Kevin,I should have said, "shellac finishers love shellac!" Which is almost doubly redundant.Of course, there are different finishes for different purposes. I've used CAB Acrylic lacquer more than shellac in the last several years.But I'm curious. Why do you dislike shellac? It's certainly not suitable for some applications (it would make a terrible bar top finish) but aside from limitations having to do with suseptibility to certain solvents and certain environments, do you actually dislike the stuff?Rich
Why do you dislike shellac?
Because I can't spray it and get a decent looking finish. Every experienced finisher I know who dislikes shellac cites the same exact reason.
Strange, I always spray it. In fact, I've always sprayed it. I've never really experienced the most common "problem" with shellac - difficulty brushing it due to its rapid drying characteristic.
What percentage of it do you later rub out? I'm talking about strictly "off the gun" - no rubbing at all.
The first coat looks great... lays down nice... flows nicely, regardless of how much I've thinned it. Every succeeding coat looks progressively worse - i.e., second coat alligators slightly, third coat alligators worse, etc. It pulls away from every pore in the wood. My helper finished some Macasar Ebony a few days ago - actually over a period of several days - and I've honestly never seen ebony look so ugly because of the way that all the pores were accentuated by the shellac. Just looking at the reflection from an oblique angle it looked like Oak because of the pores. He was very disappointed, sanded it all off and refinished with pre-cat lacquer. Looks fabulous now!
Thin, not thin... dewaxed, not dewaxed. It all behaves the same in my experience in terms of how it alligators once the wood is sealed and it begins to build on the surface. I've rubbed some pieces out and they looked great. But strictly "off the gun" it doesn't even come close to the appearance quality of lacquer, conversion varnish or any other clear that I've ever worked with.
As I said before, shellac looks great under certain circumstances. French Polish in particular looks simply amazing and I've never seen another finish that can match that amazing look. Rubbing it out looks fabulous too. But off the gun I have been consistently disappointed with shellac, as have other finishers I know. So we don't use it. It's just too easy to get a vastly superior off the gun appearance from any number of other finish materials - particularly lacquer.
Kevin,
I rub out every finish I use. And I level sand betwen allmost all applications. I cannot imagine leaving a finish as it comes out of the gun. I know some finishers can, but that's not my idea of a fine furniture finish.
I've seen final coats of automotive acrylics sprayed over the previous layer which has been meticulously fine sanded, and that final, untouched application looks great, but that's not the look I'm after.
To me, shellac is just another resin that I put onto wood and rub to the look I want. I admit it's my favorite for a lot of reasons, but it's not the one I use the most.
Rich
To each his own.
Kevin,
It's funny, I'm with Rich here, I started out with shellac spraying.. (because I'm a lousy brush painter) But found that I could brush it as fast or faster than I could spray it..
I tend to over thin paint of any sort because I've never found a down side other than the slight added cost of the denatured alcohol in shellac's case or thinner in the case of paint.. That seems to help even with spraying..
The same basic rules apply with shellac spraying that apply with shellac brushing, go fast, don't go back and realize that shellac dries nearly on contact when sprayed..
If anything dries faster than shellac, it's lacquer. So fast drying isn't a problem that can't be handled.
I don't know what problem Kevin had with spraying shellac, as he hasn't answered about that. But, I can't understand what problem spraying could have introduced into the final appearance of any shellac finish.
Rich
and realize that shellac dries nearly on contact when sprayed.
No it doesn't, Frenchy. It flashes super fast, but it does not dry that fast. In terms of drying fast enough to be scuff sanded, shellac doesn't even come close to nitro lacquer. And it's about on par with vinyl sealer - i.e., an overnight dry is required before it sands decently. Before that it gums up sandpaper very easily. Which means that it's not dry yet!
"And it's about on par with vinyl sealer - i.e., an overnight dry is required before it sands decently. Before that it gums up sandpaper very easily. Which means that it's not dry yet!"
That's my experience with shellac and vinyl sealer. I sand the following day. I always wonder how some people are able to scuff sand within an hour or even 2.
Additional shellac applications in an hour - yes. Meaningful level sanding - no.
Rich
Meaningful level sanding - no.
Exactly! Meaningful and especially level being the operative words there. It can be sanded much sooner. But getting it level is another issue entirely.
BTW, I know that you've previously mentioned using SW's 24% vinyl sealer. I used to use it all the time until I got tired of having to wait overnight to sand it. I complained to my SW rep and he told me about a new hybrid vinyl/nitro sanding sealer they came out with that's supposed to dry and sand like nitro. I tried it and it did indeed sand better with less dry time required. But still not like nitro sealer. It still required a fairly significant dry time before it really powdered up nicely without gumming up the sandpaper. You could spray the hybrid sealer in the morning and get it to sand decently later in the afternoon, though. Which is better than having to wait overnight. If you haven't tried it you might give your local SW outlet a call and see if they carry it.
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind. Although I don't find waiting overnight to be objectionable. I just don't hurry any part of the finishing process. Not having that kind of production schedule is one of the luxuries I insist on keeping!
Rich
Believe me, there are times when I envy you the lack of a schedule. Job shops like where I've worked for the last 11 years are the worst. At least in the furniture factories every other department was focused on the finish department getting what it needed, when it needed it. But in a job shop it's not like that at all. I'm at the end of the food chain and no matter who else drops the ball I have to suck it up and still make the ship date, come hell or high water. But it's a double-edged sword. Specialty job shops are where the money is at for a finisher/painter. I could quit and have a much more predictable production schedule at a cabinet factory or something like that... at less than half the pay. As a single parent that's a non-starter even if I wanted to do it.
Kevin,
?
What? Honestly I can sand shellac 15 minutes after I apply it the second coat takes twice as long so I don't sand for a 1/2 hour and the third coat takes an hour to dry.
What are you mixing it with?
Denatured alcohol straight from the can.
Kevin,
Well there are two other potential problems. First is Not enough denatuured alcohol so the cut is too thick but you've said that you are doing about 1 1/2 pound cut which I used to do myself and never seem to have that sort of trouble. (I just found it hard to apply fast enough to not get ridges)
The second is the shellac is too aged, personally I've never had that problem even though I've applied shellac well past it's three year life.
I do believe that fresher premixed shellac will gum up if the can has been opened and it's not a 100% seal. This is pure speculation on my part but I think what happens is the light ends of the alcohol chain, the extremely volitile ones will evaporate leaving only the heavy ends present..
frenchy,As enthusiastic as you are about shellac, I think you have to admit that your methods and your advice fall well outside the experience of most other lovers of shellac. While you advocate literally swabbing the stuff on in very dilute mixtures, your insistence that this does not result in problems of drips and runs just can't be taken with blissful, unchallenging acceptance. Frankly, your advice requires complete abandonment of disbelief.I can't see your floors and your woodwork, so I can't comment about the nature of the shellac surface and the presence or absence of irregularities on flat, vertical or oblique surfaces, but, my friend, shellac just not behave as you describe it to. Your method of application simply will not do for any kind of fine furniture finish.Varnish in an absolutely dust-free environemnt will self-level and flow out to a glass-like surface during its long wet time. Shellac will not.For all its endearing qualities, it's a resin that needs a significant amount of hands on work, after the application. It does not flow. It does not level. It does form all kinds of ridges and irregularities. Some additives such as isopropyl alcohol and turpentine will reduce these characteristics, but they are a reality of shellac and diluting it, flooding it on or swabbing it like water are never going to change that.Rich
Edited 3/29/2007 12:03 am ET by Rich14
Rich,
I think we are failing to connect.
If you were to watch the way I flood thinned shellac on my timbers you'd think I was insane!
Now a vertical timber acts exactly like any vertical surface anyplace, wouldn't you agree? Yet if you look at my timbers with a microscope I doubt you'll find a trace of a run. I've looked as carefully as I can and I honestly don't see a single run on anything.
The reason there isn't a run is none get a chance to dry, seconds after the run trickles down the beam I'm there with my big 'ol house painters brush slathering shellac right over it, so in a sense you can say it's all runs! *One big giant run! Oh the floor is coated with shellac, but who cares, that's just subfloor right now and in the shop so what if you are into tidyness there is newspaper or other things to clean up the spilt shellac..
If you are saying that to achieve maximum gloss and depth of shine you must color sand, well I certainly agree there with you. I do say that often newbies or beginners are pleased enough with the finish to let it be, if they choose later to go for the gloss it wouldn't hurt to let it dry a day week month or few years..
* part of my technique requires a larger than usual sized brush to allow floods of shellac to be applied. No dainty tidy brush strokes are called for. Slathering gobs of shellac quickly applied.
As I've said some can apply shellac in a tidy neat manner and not have problems with it drying or causing problems.. I'm not one of those and I suspect that many who have difficulty brushing things suffer from a similar problem..
Frenchy,
With all due respect, I don't think you're being intellectually honest about this. You use a super thin cut which means that the resin percentage is low. When the alcohol flashes out you are left with a relatively thin dry film. Even so, as you yourself note, each succeeding coat takes longer to dry before you can sand it. The reason is obvious: the dry film gets succeedingly thicker AND because shellac will bite back into itself so that with each succeeding coat of shellac you are effectively dealing with a lower cut of shellac... it's just taking you more coats to get there because of the way that you thin it. But once it starts building up you are dealing with the same dynamics as everyone else. The laws of physics don't get suspended just because you like a thinner cut.
As for the light/heavy ends of the alcohol chain... the heavy ends are in there whether the lid has been opened or not. That can't possibly explain longer dry times. The more volitile solvents in any finish are never, ever what determines dry times. It is always, always, always the slower solvents that determine dry time.
Kevin,
I do agree with you to a point.. I'm not so sure that I add that many extra coats. I typically stop with the third coat.. only if I intend to color sand and go for the really deep finish do I maybe add the 4th coat.
Now as I've said I'm not fastidious about the exact cut I use since I pour the old mix back into the new can and count it as just alcohol.. (am I to 1 1/2 pound cut at the third coat? I don't know, I've never treated shellac like a chemistry test)
I also don't sit there with a stop watch carefully timing when I can put the brush to the next coat. To me that's part of the beauty of shellac.. it's tolerance for differant approaches.. Heck some experts here poo-poo my approach, it won't work for them.. OK I can accept that.
But I've shown some people who are absolutely terrified of a paint brush that shellac isn't the same as that latex paint they can't get smooth and brush mark free. It's more like water. Anybody can paint water evenly, if there happens to be a little resin in the water that's not a big deal..
Maybe that should be what I tell people, slop it on like water and it will level itself just like water will.
Kevin, I'm not the worlds expert on the problems of shellac. For some reason it's always behaved like a proper lady for me.. You mentioned that you had a problem with your's not drying, as I said I speculated that It was evaporation of the light ends of the alcohol chain that were causing the delay in drying..
I know it's not the age of the shellac itself. I've stripped off shellac that was over 70 years old, the rag that I used to do it would dry out and become stiff as a board inside a day. So age of the shellac doesn't affect drying time.. if it's not the alcohol then what would you suspect it is?
Please, that's not a wise azz remark, I honestly don't know.. slow drying shellac has never been an issue with me, ever. While I've only got a couple of decades putting shellac on, I've probably applied maybe 50 gallons of shellac over the years, maybe 100 (I don't keep records so it's pure guess work) You'd think as cheap as I am, (I have paint that is decades old and I still use it!) I'd run into a problem by now wouldn't you?
O.K.,
Continuing the saga of The Great Shellac Controversy, I've continued in my exploration of shellac using Frenchy's directions.
My daughter asked me to finish a stained oak quilt hanger she'd scored on ebay. I thought "why not", and out came the Bulls Eye, the DNA, and the good quality, but currently stiff with dried shellac, finishing brush.
Cut the Bulls Eye 50/50 with the DNA, and literally slopped it on. De-nubbed the first coat and quickly slopped on three more coats.
Looked like heck, nice film of shellac on all the wood, but hardly a furniture-grade finish, and there was shellac drool, everywhere on the undersides. Smiling happily, I left it to dry overnight.
This morning, I fired up a pad of 0000# steelwool and Johnsons's Paste Wax. The still soft shellac drool on the undersides disappeared under stiff application of the steelwool. Bearing down stoutly, I scrubbed the remaining surfaces with the wax/wool combination until the wool quit dragging, and let the wax glaze over. Then I buffed out the whole thing with an old t-shirt.
Fantastic! Looked like I'd spent days on the darn thing!
Clearly I don't have Frenchy's method down pat, but my own variation is quite satisfactory. Another convert to shellac (OMMMMmmmmmmnnnnn.....)
Mike :)
Mike,I'm glad you're enjoying your re-finished Ebay treasure, and I hate to bring you back to the Real World from your Zen-like reverie, but I'd like to point out a few realities about the finish you've just applied.From your description of the "still soft shellac drool on the undersides," and the vigor with which you abraded the very thin shellac with your wax-laden 4-0 steel wool applicator, there are very likely areas that are now devoid of any new shellac and simply have a nicely lustrous wax finish, little more.A newly-buffed wax finish looks quite nice, even on raw wood. But it's not at all durable, nor protective at all and will need re-application from time to time to maintain the luster( paste wax does not come off the surface, but gradually dulls with time).Those of us who have criticized frenchy's "method" of shellac application have simply pointed out that there is far too little shellac on the surface to permit proper leveling and rubbing out. Even he describes some use of sand paper on a sanding block, (although I believe his description of the effort is "a lick and a promise") and further shellac application after that.I think if you wash the piece with some mineral spirits and a rag, (to remove the wax) and examine the surface under oblique lighting, you'll see what I mean about your very thin shellac coating and the places where you rubbed away soft shellac drips.There is nothing at all difficult about obtaining a beautiful shellac finish. But I don't think this is the way to get it.Rich
Edited 3/31/2007 9:32 am ET by Rich14
Hi Rich14,
Ah, Zen. Nirvana is so elusive.I'm familiar with simply rubbing a piece with wax and 0000# steel wool, and while it does indeed yield a nice finish, it hasn't given me the apparent depth that I got following Frenchy's method. I'm under no illusions that it's not thin, but it does yield a nice look in a hurry.Since I'm learning about shellac, I think that my next small project will utilize a 1.5# cut for the first two coats, and then revert to a 3# cut for the final two. It should be instructive.I have to give Frenchy his due regarding getting me to try shellac again. My previous experience was in shop (lo, many moons ago), and the recommended #@!!%!! shellac finish that I put on my nice craftsman desk-top book case turned to orange gum. BAAAAD karma, that.Mike D
No magic in 3 lb. cut. 1 1/2 or 2 lb. always seem to be more tractable. But if you are willing to experiment its worth trying. The joy of shellac is that mistakes are always pretty easy to fix. Personally, I like a number of "coats" of lighter cut, though coats is probably a misnomer. Applying shellac done more in "sessions" based on how each application melts into the lower coats. Sessions end at the first hint of drag of either brush or pad.
I have just caught the tail end of this discussion so I apologise if I am missing vital criteria. I love shellac. I love wax, and I love BLO. But I wonder if you have tried Shellawax? This is a product that combinds the best of all of these, and is has great durability in addition. My only connection to it is that it is Australian (as am I), but I noticed that it is now sold by Lee Valley, so more outside Oz have the opportunity to try it out. Basically it was developed for turners and requires heat (friction) to set it off. This is where I started using it. It is a mix of shellac and wax (hence its name). It sets hard, and gets harder over the course of a month. After wiping it on I buff it on with a mop. It ends up with a moderately high gloss finish, but I cut this back to matt with a little 0000 steel wool. So if you are loooking for a product that takes little time to apply and set, put this one on the list.
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,I believe there is another product here called Crystal Coat, used in the same way - on a lathe, while the work is spinning.Rich
O K Thanks again frenchy
Paul
jermemywillingworth,
Four coats? Never!
Three at most and they should be thin coats.. Mix one part shellac with three parts denatured alcohol..
it will be extremely watery.. which is the real secret..
Put on the first coat and it will be dry inside of 15 minutes.. Sand..
Put on the second coat and it will be dry inside a 1/2 hour, Sand...
Put on the final coat.. it's dry inside an hour..
please note that you sand between coats not when you are done!
Did you use three parts of denatured alcohol to one part of premixed shellac?
You need to start over.. grab some denatured alcohol soak a rag and the old shellac will come right off.
follow my directions carefully, ask and I'll walk you thru it.
If you have runs you simply didn't thin it enough!
Thin, watery,, thin,, thin,, thin!!!!!!! brush or wipe real fast because shellac dries inside of 15 minutes hard enough to sand..
a table the size of yours should take about 4 seconds of sanding to be done. per side.. a few extra seconds to carefully sand the edges) . use 220 sand paper (I prefer to use the 3M sanding sponge, yellow 220 one)
Thin, thin is one method for applying shellac that yields a very close to the wood finish that can be attractive.
But, it is not the only way, and it is not the way if you are trying to reproduce a finish on a high style antique. There a great many coats--20 or 30 or even more with significant sanding after every six or ten works very well. (This is the approach taken by the Hay Shop at Colonial Williamsburg, by the way.) The total film doesn't get very thick because of the sanding, but considably thicker than three coats of 1 lb. cut. That proceedure allows the shellac to fill any pores, and gives a very smooth film that can be rubbed to any sheen you desire from satin right to high gloss. With three coats of 1 lb. cut shellac there isn't sufficient film to really rub out the finish, especially over dyed or stained wood where cutting through has more consequences.
Fast, fast, fast remains appropriate because you never want to run a brush or a pad over shellac that is at all wet. No going back to pick up a gap or to smooth an imperfection. Stop immediately when you feel the first hint of the shellac dragging. The drying time does get progressively longer, from 15 minutes on the first coat or two, to and hour or two in the middle, with an overnight dry a good idea somewhere during the process.
Steve Schoene,
I've done the multi coat and sand between appraoch and when working on small furnature pieces it can be done if you've got the skill, patience, and desire..
I'm simply trying to get people to use Shellac who are afraid of most finishing.. I make it butt simple in an attempt to reduce the fear and then let them explore their options as they feel more confidence.
My appraoch yeilds a decent finish, something to be proud of. Something they won't be ashamed of. can it be improved? The wonderful thing about shellac as far as I'm concerned is it's ability to start over!
Simply wipe off the old finish with denatured alcohol do it another way and compare the results.. Heck you could make a career of finishing just one piece if you wanted to, (and were so inclined).
I agree that the thin washes make for a very simple and nearly fool proof finish. Much nicer than oil/varnish finishes and a very good starting place for new comers to shellac.
But in addition to the congregation needing to be saved from life without shellac, the choir is out there too and need reinforcement of their decision to use shellac instead of ... "poly" or conversion varnish. So thin and simple is one choice, but building the finish with lots of quick coats is another choice. And, there is even the French polish option to be tried sometime before one dies since, in my opinion, that yields the finest formal finish of them all, bar none.
Steve Schoene,
Ahh!! french polishing ,
everybody should be forced to do it at least once as penance for their sins.. <G>
twice would be too cruel! ;-)
I have found that the third and fourth coats of 3# or 4# shellac take a long time to dry. I have done floors with a wash coat of a dewaxed 2# cut, and followed with two or three coats, four in very high wear areas, of "out of the can" Bullseye. This is a bit different from what I would do with furniture, but it is an approach I began after extensive corredspondence with Zinsser. I wanted shellac floors for a variety of reasons -- and am glad I did it. My floors look just wonderful, and wear well by residential standards.
HOWEVER, I found that while the 2# cut dried for use within 45 minutes, and the first top coat did more or less the same, later coats could take a long time. For example, I let one floor dry overnight and then some, and walked out to change bulbs in a chandelier while it could be easily reached. I left sock prints in spots.
That was brand new Bullseye, well within its date. So, I redid the spots by wiping with alcohol and retouching, and from then on have left thick shellac for 24 hours or longer and tested carefully before stressing it.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled