Help.
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I am a hobbyist woodworker, contemplating the workshop of my dreams. I need some help thinking through whether I am being realistic.
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The current plans call building a two story, 16′ x 32′ garage. The size and shape of the building is limited by the lot and required set-backs, etc.
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I live in a typical suburban neighborhood (my lot is 50′ x 150′) and, if possible, want to soundproof the building so I could run a TS or router after 10 PM without waking up the neighbors. I’ve done the research on soundproofing, and am planning on insulating the walls, using acoustic resonance furring and a layer of thin foam between two layers of drywall on all of the surfaces.
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As this is the shop of my dreams, I also want lots of light. So, ideally I’d like 4-5 skylights and 2-3 windows along the south wall (32′) wall. I understand that they make special sound-reducing windows, but don’t know much about them.
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I have four questions:
1) Am I being realistic in thinking I can add enough sound proofing to a building like this to use it at night without being too much of a nuisance to my (generally well-tempered and cooperative) neighbors.
2) How much of the soundproofing will be lost due to the windows? Do I have to make the trade-off between windows or soundproofing?
3) Roughly, roughly, roughly what cost will all of this soundproofing add to the cost of an otherwise normally (to code) constructed building.
4) Where can I get information about soundproofed windows (how well do they work, how much do the cost, etc)
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Thanks for the help,
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Cheers,
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<!—-><!—->Eric<!—->
Replies
I know low E douible glazed windows are inherently quieter than single glazed, but I haven't heard of specific windows for sound proofing. You also have to consider doors and other openings. Since you'll be running all buttoned up you'll need HVAC and you'll have to consider it as both a potential sound leak as well as a source. I suppose it's possible, but be very, very careful. You are going to spend serious money on your dream shop, it would be nuts not to spend a couple of thousand on an acoustic engineer to ensure you can use it as intended. We hire them to the requistite sound studies and attenuation design for cell sites in San Diego where the City requires a max SPL of 65 dB at the property line.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Complete soundproofing is very difficult to achieve. Sound gets transmitted through air and the vibrations will travel through walls regardless of the material that is used if it is one mass. The best way is to build a room within a room and keep the walls and ceilings isolated from each other. The addition of absorbent materials in or on the isolated walls is also needed. It would make more sense to build absorbent shutters for the windows, you would have to do the same for your overhead doors. Higher frequency sounds, like those produced by power tools, are easier to stop than a bass drum or sub-woofer. A shop in a poured concrete walled basement is very quiet on the outside. Building double walls in a garage with living space over may give rise to fire code issues.
I often use 1" of Styrofoam under the sheetrock in the homes I build. My own house is done this way and it is very quiet. If you were to build your exterior walls with 2x4, add a resilient channel to the studs and cover them with a material like homosote, then build a second interior wall with as much air space between the exterior as possible, insulate with fiberglass, cover with 2" Styrofoam and then 5/8" fire code sheetrock, I think you would get pretty good sound isolation without breaking the bank.
Another option would be to build your walls out of poured concrete using the ICF systems, stay in place insulated concrete forms. Lie Nielsen just built a shop using these forms. You could combine these on the first floor and build conventionally on top.
If you Google 'soundproofing a room', you'll get lots of information, materials and approaches. I tried to build a soundproof wall in a business where conversations about money didn't want to be heard. I layered materials on a stud wall because I didn't have room for other methods. Sheetrock with 1/2" foam under and fiberglass in the stud cavities couldn't stop whispering from getting through. The owners just didn't want to spend what it would take to do it right. What they had me do was a waste of time and money.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The hardest things to soundproof are the high frequency whines of your router (My wife comes down and complains about router noise more often than TS noise). While low freq noise will vibrate through stuff, the TS does not have the same energy as a Semi-truck on a major highway. (plus if it's sitting on concrete, not much LF vibration will be transferred...)
Do some tests. Have someone run your router and walk to the neighbors, across the street etc... then do the same with the tablesaw. That will give you an idea of how much soundproofing you'll need.
Mark
" high frequency whines of your router (My wife "
Danger! Danger! Don't use whine and wife in the same sentence, even paranthetically separated :)John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
LOL. Thanks for a good chuckle.
Mark
Visit my woodworking blog Dust Maker
Specify (or build with) laminated glass at 1/4" thickness on your insulated glass units, and set these in foam glazing tape. The two layers of lami and the foam are the best way to get soundproofed windows - stops the transmission of vibrations. To go any further gets very complex and expensive. The easy way to take it a notch further is to make interior shutters for the windows with a wood frame and homasote panels, and hinge them to fit close to the window frame on the casing. That will also help with the lights past 10PM.
And rest that router by buying and using a shaper. The more mass and lower RPM will be far quieter and easy to dampen than any router, and you'll take three steps up in quality. Routers have their place, but they are called on way too often in most hobby shops. Some edge work and dovetails are for the router, other than that, it's under the bench.
Build some solid wood shutters and hang them on the inside. If you're concerned about noise at night then windows aren't doing you that much good at that time anyway. Close the shutters when you fire up the 'chinery.
Build the shutters sandwich style and throw some Celotex Soundstop board in the center.
Edited 8/19/2005 5:14 pm ET by ProWoodworker
Go to http://www.quietsolution.com to get good info on products. Also relating to sounsproofing windows.
DR
Go to Radio Shack and get an SPL meter. They aren't much more than $70 and it would give you immediate feedback to whatever method you use. You can start by getting a reading of the SPL with your current setup, at the lot line with the doors closed. If you're not very close to the lot line, you may not need to do much sound control since the SPL drops by 6dB every time you double the distance to the sound source.
I work for a home theater/home automation contractor and we're in the process of building a theater demo space which has sound transmission barrier behind the drywall. The design company's plans called for wood studs but the building owner wanted metal. The walls, from the outside consist of: drywall, metal studs(fiberglass insulated), 3/4" fire retardant particle board, acoustic membrane, resiliant channel and drywall. This will knock the sound down a lot, but I wanted to build a "box in a box".
If you want to cut your costs, make a room for the loudest machines inside the main building and don't use the outside walls as the walls for this room. You probably won't be using any one of them for really long time periods unless you have a huge project with parts of one size and do all of the cutting at one time. I have had my TS and dust collector going at the same time and have never had a complaint from my neighbors, working out of my garage.
NOT knockin' ANYTHING you said.. All seems correct...SPL ... Sound Pressure Meter .. For Woofers.. I just place several glasses of water around the floor.. In different parts of the room..I play somethin' with alot of bass.. Like Ry Cooter 'Feelin Bad Blues'Not that loud.. Move the bass speakers till all the glasses of water seem to vibrate at about the same.. Just me though!EDIT:: glasses of water .. As in good wine glasses..
Edited 8/21/2005 11:21 am ET by WillGeorge
That would work inside, but if the neighbors complain, I doubt the police will set up a bunch of wine glasses with water to see if the noise is excessive. Besides, the wine glasses will all resonate at the same frequency unless they're tuned by having a different amount of water in each.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
First to mind is the USG website. They have schematics in .pdf that detail various wall construction methods (as well as products and ideas) with STM ratings attached. Since my life has evolved more to having me buiding than woodworking, what I see as the two major cost effective solutions are mass and decoupling. Mass is easily achieved via additional layers of drywall. Decoupling, in my terminology, means taking that mass and standing it off of the framing via use of something like z-channel. Or build a steel framed wall inside the building, and insulate the cavity. Polystyrene is a good insulator for sound, but rather poo-pooed in some building circles because if it does catch fire it's got nasty gasses. FG batts work almost as well. You can buy doors through likely most any local supplier that are sound-dampened, at least. Windows have a slough of ratings that accompany them, sound transmission is one that some makers advertise.
The ICF idea is good. It would be the quietest building you ever stepped foot in. There's a concrete house here where they even used flex-core for the main floor and you could fire a shotgun in the basement and not hear it in the kitchen. Now that would make for content neighbors.
SIPS are another avenue. I'm under the impression that build costs vary considerably with what region you're in, i.e. is it made locally or trucked four states to get to you. Here it's significantly more than conventional framing. But if you happen to be close enough that the cost isn't a deal breaker, a SIP building would also be quiet, and your shell would go up in a day. Monday pour concrete. Tuesday put building on. Wednesday the roofers are up and the electrician is in. Gotta like that. By the time the concrete is fully cured, you're driving the forklift on it bringing in that brand new 480 3ph tablesaw.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Eric
I was recently on a job that required several sound reduced rooms...this is what the contractor did with excellent results. 2 X 4 studs - wool insulation - 1/2 " drywall - spacer strips installed for 1/2" air gap - second layer of drywall. As far as your window go, I would install a standard window and construct a drywall & stud panel that you could temporarily install only when your working at night.
John
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