Source for 3/4″ float glass for Shapton
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Does any one have a reliable source for 3/4″ float glass here in the US. I took Rob Cosman’s course in Calgary, Albert and he is really high on the Shapton Sharpening Systems. However, they must rest on a perfectly flat surface. He uses 3/4 float glass that sold for $45 in Calgary but they want more than twice that here in the US. Any suggestions?
George
Replies
As a suggestion ,
Possibly use granite ? I've seen it machined flat with leveling feet used for other things . Maybe the $90 is what it's worth , it's right, it's ready and it's there .
I'm not familiar with the Shapton systems you speak of but it has me curious .
dusty
I sharpen on 1/4" float glass.
To my way of thinking it's not the thickness that's important, but the flatness. I'm sure 3/4 " is heavier and maybe won't slide around the bench. But I use a router pad under mine and it sharpens "scary sharp".
Good luck.
Fred
Shapton actually recommends the use of granite or 3/4 glass. Although flatness is critical, its stiffness that is most important. The stiffer the better.Chris
I used the scary sharp method a few years ago and got my chisels so sharp that the hair on the back of my hand seemed to jump off in fear as the blad started to approach them. Scary sharp!!!
And what was I sharpening on? 3/4" float glass? Granite? marble slab?
Nope.
I used a piece of formica scrap on a plywood substrate. Nothing fancy. Just a piece of plywood with a layer of formica on it. Scary sharp.
Why did I stop using that? I was spending too much time hunting down 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper. Instead I got myself a set of five water stones and learned to use them. Not quite as super scary sharp, but still sharp enough to shave with (I love to show off) and much easier to set up and put away.
Don't obsess over the perfect flatness of your surface. Simply flat is flat enough. Trust me. Focus on learning to hold that blade steady as you sharpen and you will be able to shave a gnats whisker in no time.
D.L.
P.S. I have a few sharpening jigs I bought that I no longer use too, if anyone is interested in them. I love my gadgets, but all of them take longer to set up than finishing a blade by hand does.
Edited 8/14/2008 11:52 am by labolle
Damned good advice.
Edited 8/14/2008 3:05 pm ET by BossCrunk
agreed , keep it simple , use what we have .
That's great , the scary sharp blade scared the hair right off your hand .
we can make things complicated , but does it help ?
dusty
Outstanding! Now just get down to one oil stone and you will be as happy as a REAL woodworker can be.
Don't obsess over the perfect flatness of your surface. Simply flat is flat enough. Trust me. Focus on learning to hold that blade steady as you sharpen and you will be able to shave a gnats whisker in no time.
I tend to agree even if what I use is flat. I have had a Tormek for some time now and I do like it for repairing a damaged edge. Yes, I have been known to drop a tool or two.
For 'touchup' I use an approximate 8 X 12 X one inch thick hunk of hard aluminum I found in a scrap yard pile. It is anodized, so the surface is a bit slippery but the wet paper holds well. It was really expensive. As I recall, about $5.00. When I saw it I knew exactly what I wanted it for. My granite is hard to get to so I just use that. As to the grit I have to go look but I use automotive wet/dry paper. I just get the finest grit they have at the time. That sanding material is GREAT!
3M I believe. I use the 600 Grit Silicon Carbide. I have never found a need to use anything finer (AND WAY MORE EXPENSIVE grades) about 50 cents a sheet verses $60.00 or more for 10 sheets! I have used the 600 on lacquers with excellent results.
To refresh the edge of chisels or plane blades I run them by hand along the length of the cutting edge, as in side to side. Not backward so the whole width of the blade contacts all that fine sandpaper.
Using the side-to-side motion cuts the 'refresh' time to just a very few strokes and saves alot of unused grit to use at another time.
Works for me!
I've been using a piece of 1/4" plate glass with sandpaper up to 2000 grit with very good results. 2 weeks ago I got a quartz countertop installed in our kitchen. "Quartz" for countertops is a solid surface, man-made material. When they made the cutout for the sink, I grabbed the off-cut for use in sharpening. It's 1-1/4" thick & the size of a double-bowl kitchen sink. I don't have precision straight edges to check the flatness, but I can't imagine the tolerance would be much or the seams wouldn't fit together. I haven't had the need to use it yet. It's so heavy I've got to find a place where I don't have to move it.
If ya'll knew how easy, simple, and effective a few boxed oilstones could be.
I'd bet it is just about perfect!
Just in passing.....Since I have been doing the odd bit of metal work here and there I had a need for a Surface Plate of some sort.
The black granite/flat rock item is very cheap compared to the Real Thing (cast iron) so I bought one I could see (750mm x 400 x 100mm), complete with laminated lie sheet with graph and signed accuracy declaration. Very good.
But here's the laugh: it may be certified flat on the top surface but that is the end of it- there is not one square edge to it, as I discovered when I needed to make a top cover for it. Another laugh (for me): I bet that stone was pillaged from Zimbabwe where there are vast supplies of the stuff...Philip Marcou
I use 1/2", ordered it from local dealer. Took about two weeks.
For what I paid for the float glass, you can get a beautiful granite granite surface plate (accurate to ±0.0001)and a case of brew. Shipping is another matter. After worrying about braking that glass for the last 10 years, I would consider the plate.
see:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32526&cat=1,43513,51657
Yeah, but then you've got to worry about breaking your back! Or your toes.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The case of brew eases the pain!
geodown,
I have 1/4", 3/4" and 1 1/4" granite that is flat. I also have the shaptons...which are flat. I use the granite with sandpaper, I don't need the granite for the shaptons. Am I missing something?
Oy vey.....
A Richard Jones classic:
A Lesson in Sharpening.
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu’ may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yu’. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yu’ started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu’ cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."
I haven't.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 8/13/2008 1:51 pm ET by BossCrunk
Oh how true!!!!!
Hi Charlie (and Richard in absentia)
Last weekend was the Perth Wood Show and I spent this time demonstrating on the Lie-Nielsen stand. The first day was mainly about sharpening blades.
Now I was rather proud of the way I held up the minimalist ethos. I managed to get by with only a Tormek, high speed 8" grinder, hand cranked 6" grinder, 4 DMT diamond stones in various grits, a set of Shapton Professional waterstones in 1000/5000/8000 and 16000, plus only two (told ya I was cutting down) natural Japanese Honyama 'stones. I managed to find room for the 24 sheets of W&D sandpaper (120 grit through 2500) under the 3 granite slabs (one was a spare, which is understandable). I left the micromesh at home (you'd be so proud!).
LN expected me to also demonstrate their Nortons and glass Shaptons, which I was happy to do .. or would have if there was any room left on the workbench (now groaning a little under the additional weight of the LV MK II Power Sharpening machine, and several honing guides).
After flattening all the waterstones and gluing all the sandpaper to various granite and glass slabs, it was time to go home (it did take some time y'know). Still a good time was had by all, in spite of no metal touching stone.
Regards from Perth
Derek
How lovely for you.
I spent last weekend riving white and red oak logs for chair parts and got a little steam bending in late Sunday afternoon. My dog watched for little while.
Edited 8/14/2008 7:57 am ET by BossCrunk
I hand planed a very nice currly cherry slab for a coffee table. Used a L-N 4 1/2 York pitch. Blade honed on only an old hard white Arkansas oil stone, and it still worked....
Ssshhh, let's just let 'em chase their tails. They're gonna do it anyway.
Edited 8/14/2008 10:45 am ET by BossCrunk
I'm a bit late into this thread Derek, and not realised my old yarn on my induction into sharpening lore had been invoked.
But it's good to see that you're now really going for the minimalist line in sharpening techniques and mediums -- just one whole day to set up all the sharpening paraphenalia that Lie-Nielsen seems to think are required.
---- I think I need a beer or five just reading of your show set up. Gawd! What a palaver. Slainte.
Edit just to say there should be a few behind the hand ha, ha's in there, or perhaps a sharp intake of breath or ten-- one or the other anyway, or perhaps both.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 8/15/2008 7:05 pm by SgianDubh
Hi Richard
You do realise that I was sending it up? :) I have a good chuckle whenever I read your piece.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I did, I did. I hope you realise I was responding with one too. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Try this place ,
Fabricated Glass Specialities
1.800.347.5952
http://www.fabglass.com
good luck
dusty
I bought a granite block from Woodcraft, on sale for $20. I think, and use it to flatten my water stones with 320 w/d, and whatever else I want. I wish all of Woodcraft's products were as useful.
Works great for me, and my 1/4" glass sits up on a high shelf.
Pete
Not a direct answer to your question. However I use a 3 or 4 inch thick (I'd have to go look to be sure) 12x12 hunk of granite. I have alot of very accurate metal working straight edges and surface checking devices.
I think it cost me about $30.00 US. IT IS FLAT, period! You may want to find a local granite cutter and see what the have. There is one near me I have talked to. They have all kinds of scrap and will cut and polish it. They give you the scrap stone. Only charge for the finishing. You do have to wait until the have the machines running something for production or you pay ALOT more. I asked once about very thick scraps. I was told that it takes special equipment that they do not have. But, when they need to make 'thick' pieces, they make it up from several 'standard' sheets. Epoxy together.
They also cut slate for pool tables. I was told that none of the pool table slabs are that thick. Just surfaced both sides and laid on top of one another held by metal or wooden frame (depending on the quality of the table wanted) Metal frames age much more expensive.
All I can say is I'd bet better or at least as flat as glass. I do have to admit that I have never checked a hunk of float glass for flatness.
All I know is that granite was FLAT!
I just bought a 12"x12" piece of 3/8" float glass for $10 at a local glass shop. Very flat and very rigid. If you want to go beyond that, the granite plate will be the most cost effective.
I picked up a 9"x12"x2" granite surface plate at Woodcraft. Not something I was looking for but it was on sale for $20 and with a $15 off coupon, why not for $5. It even has a laminated sheet with the flatness specs, .0001" or less and the serial number.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Edited 8/19/2008 7:56 am ET by JerryPacMan
All,
Oh. My. God.
A flat rock, with a laminated spec sheet, and a serial number. Did it have adoption papers, too, like Cabbage Patch Kids?
I'm having a flashback to that scene in Space Odyssey. I hope it is black, and mysterious, and holds the secrets of the universe. It ought to, with those impressive credentials. Cue the music. I'm gonna use a tool. Dah- duhhhh!!! bom-bom bom-bom, bom..bom......Fade to black
Ray, with more whetrocks than I need, but none of them, alas, with a pedigree.
I was impressed with this Chinese product and for just over $5 out the door what more can I say.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Hey Jerry,
Forgive me for poking fun in that previous post. Couldn't help myself.
Use and enjoy your granite.
Best wishes,
Ray
I enjoyed your post and more fun is needed on Knots. I do not know when I will use it but the laminated spec sheet is something else. It even has a diagram of the high and low spots, all within the .0001" tolerance.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Ray
Sounds like one heck of a packaging and marketing ploy on the registered Granite .
There seems to be a lot of obsessing over small stuff going on lately do you think ?
take care d
when are they going to do you again in FWW ? restoration works or I think the stile and rail / sash revisited .
dusty,
I think I'm too old fashioned for FWW nowadays.
Ray
"A flat rock, with a laminated spec sheet, and a serial number. Did it have adoption papers, too, like Cabbage Patch Kids?"
Actually, what's being described is correctly termed in the machinist's trade a "granite surface plate". They all come with flatness tests, serial numbers (and printed results). Starrett has made them for years in lots of different sizes, and they were very expensive. Not because of the material, of course, but because of the precision grinding and flatness tolerances (as well as the testing). They are absolutely required for precision measuring in metal machining operations, it's just that the "new" part of this is that you can get one for next to nothing, so they're practical for woodworker's use.
I rather doubt (hope?) that no woodworker actually thinks they need a flatness tolerance of 0.001" over a foot length, but if they're cheaper than float glass, why not?
dk,
Gaw, I guess I am just born lucky, but I have managed to get by without one in the shop all these years. Maybe I ought to have two. Or just continue to struggle along without scary sharp and forty-leven grades of paper grits, or waterstones that must be scrupulously maintained to -n-th degree of flatness. Oh crap I have a dull chisel, but if I hone it, at least I'll get to flatten all my stones--again.
What have I been thinking all this time, trying to sharpen with my two oilstones and grinding wheel?
Ray
PS fellas, don't take me too seriously. If y'all are enjoying yourselves in the shop, that's what really counts. I come here to do mostly the same thing. Y'know, just d1ck around, not to any productive end.
Ray - I'm just saying that the reason that the slabs of granite that come from Woodcraft have a laminated quality control test sheet with them is that they were manufactured for an entirely different purpose than what Woodcraft sells them for. That spec sheet goes with all granite surface plates, and is critically important for the purpose for which they were designed. Sales to woodworkers to flatten oil/waterstones or the backs of plane irons is a very small bonus market for the manufacturer.
And yeah, you can sharpen a tool in a lot of ways. In my case, I do have one of the cheapie granite surface plates to flatten waterstones, as I do want the backs of my chisels dead flat. That said, I use a piece of leather glued to a scrap piece of mahogany and impregnated with honing compound to hone my chisels, plane irons and carving tools, and it's about as low-tech as it gets.
A flat rock, with a laminated spec sheet, and a serial number. Did it have adoption papers, too, like Cabbage Patch Kids?
GEEEEEEEEEE! I think I got the same thing long ago..
It was better than the specifacitions stated on paper... ! So there... Not everything you get at a good price is junk!
My Edit.. I have the tools to check it!
NO HATE here.. Just a comment!
Edited 8/19/2008 8:36 pm by WillGeorge
Being a woodworker and a builder, I have a suggestion.
When we put granite countertops for kitchens, the stone supplier/installer measures and makes cutouts of the highly polished granite (or other) for sinks and cooktops, etc.
I routinely ask the stone installers to save the granite cutouts and cut then into "cutting board" rectangles for the new homeowners. Stone cabinet top installers are usually happy to get rid of the waste (to them) pieces.
Contact some of the stone countertop companies in your area and see if they would give you some polished granite pieces for sharpening bases. Others have suggested granite for sharpening bases. I'll bet that if you ask politely, the countertop fabrication shop people will be glad to help a fellow craftsman.
Heck, maybe other natural stone or "manufactured stone" (silestone?) might be even better for use as sharpening bases.
Think outside of the box on such materials and where to get them. One person's trash is another person's treasure.
Good luck!
Went to the local thrift store, bought a picture frame glass combo for $1.00, harvested the glass, threw the frame away. Used construction adhesive to glue glass to 3/4 inch plywood. Works great.
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