After reading books by Anthony Guidice and Tage Frid, I like the idea of using a bow saw rather than my current panel saw or japanese pull saw. I’m looking for a supplier of bow saws and blades, 1.5 to 2 inch blades, not the thin coping blades that seem so common. Both authors mentioned a large (26″) saw for big work and a smaller 12″ saw for joinery. Guidice calls this smaller saw a “Danish” saw and larger one a “German” saw. I have found the german saw at highlandhardware.com, but I can’t find anything smaller than 26 inches anywhere. Any sources for the smaller saw and blades? (or even a different source for the larger german style bow saw?) Thanks in advance for the help.
david
Replies
http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=263
It is easy to build a bowsaw. There have been many articles over the years detailing their construction in various magazines. Try FWW's book "On Handtools" p. 73-75. Once you are able to build a bowsaw readily, then you can choose whatever blade meets your needs. The last bowsaw I built was made for some blades that I found on sale at Home Depot. These blades were originally made for a hand miter saw and were $2 each. Since the teeth on these blades were impulse hardened they should last a long time. When the blade gets dull, I will simply throw it out and replace it with a new one. As I bought 10 of them, I figure that I will probably be dead before I use them all!!!
Replacement blades for the "Nobex Champion" make good bow saw blades and I believe they are shorter than 26 inches. Even hacksaw blades can be used with good success. Good Luck!
Edited 11/17/2005 7:41 pm ET by robert1
thank you very much for your post. i think i'll give building one a try.dave
Dave,
This article by Tage Frid himself will tell you everything you need to know about bow saws. Even how Tage resharpened his blades.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/fwnpdf/011008056.pdf
In spite of all of Adam's warnings, I plan on building one myself sometime this summer, just to torture myself. Don't forget about the pictures.
-Chuck
Don't let me talk you out of anything- not that I could if I wanted to. Keep in mind that Tage resharpened all his saws rip- He didn't seem to believe in crosscut teeth- thought they were too hard to sharpen. And he also "honed" his chisels on a belt sander. So he had a great point of view. And he's to be cherished and respected. I just want you (plural) to be wary of the snake oil sales pitch, be it mine or someone else's. He had reasons why he could "get away" with these sorts of things.And don't let me leave you with the impression that I hate frame saws. Here are some pictures:
The veneer saw is in Williamsburg's Hay Cabinetshop. Its a copy of one found in Roubo. The others are from my shop (obviously). The turning saw uses a 12" blade from Highland hardware. The carved stretcher is an embarassment, but it works and I haven't had time to replace it. The frame saws with their stretchers painted use 70cm Putsch blades, refiled as required. The English saws are my preference. They cut faster than some table saws do! All of these saws I made myself and by hand except for the use of an electric grinder, hand held drill motor, and my wood lathe (to turn the handles). I could have done without the drill motor- drilling steel is very difficult - punching and reaming works better!Adam
Adam,
Where did you get the steel from to make your english saws? I have been putting some thought into making a few saws for myself as well.
Thanks,
Randy
Speaking of snake oil! There's no magic to the steel. Its hardened spring steel, 1095. I forget where I got it- Enco or mscdirect or mcCarr-co or one of those- whoever had it in roughly the size I wanted. The handle is the hard part - and getting the steel straight.Its sort of a waste of effort tho- when I built these, there were none available commercially. Now there are folks making them and selling them for less than you or I can make them. I think each back saw took a day and a half of hard work. You can by exact copies of these saws (better really) for $200. Just the brass and steel cost me about $50.Adam
What Adam said is spot on--there is nothing magical about the steel.
For all practical purposes, the large Kenyon tenon saw was .026" thick plate, but I would suggest using .028". The panel and half rip saws use .042" thick plate. The DT, .020" [originals were .018" but the slightly thicker you'll find works easier]. Sash saw use .025" thick steel.
For the smaller backed saws, use .093" thick 260 navel brass if you are folding it, and .125" thick for the sash and large tenon. If you are having a shop slot solid bar stock, use 360 brass in 3/16" thickness for the DT/carcass saws and 1/4" thick for the sash and large tenon.
For all practical purposes, here are the other specs I use:
Dovetail: 16 ppi rip, 9" long blade.Carcass saw: 14 ppi rip, 11" long blade.Sash saw: 13 ppi rip. 14" long blade.Tenon saw: 9 ppi rip. 19" long blade.Panel saw: 8 ppi. cross cut 6-1/2" w. at the heel. 26" long blade.Half-Rip: 6 ppi rip. the plate is 6-5/8" at the heel. 26" long blade.
Note that the original DT was 19 ppi. It's a pita to file. The original panel and half rip were taper ground, not for the faint at heart and while not necessary, it does help.
And for your viewing pleasure...http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/tbt/kenyon_0002a.jpghttp://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/tbt/partial_0001a.jpg
Take care, Mike
Don't let me talk you out of anything-
Adam,
Not to worry, I have always had to learn the hard way. Never the less, your experiences and observations are always appreciated. I've built a couple of turning saws and I enjoy using them. Tage Frid's saw seemed like a good next step. Thanks for sharing the photos.
-Chuck
That's a great idea. I might build one just for kicks. I prefer power tools, but don't always have access to electricity. A student at the local community college where I take wood working classes built a set of tools: bow saw, marking knives, spoke shave, and something else, out of lace wood and they looked great. He said it didn't take very long to make the bow saw.Scott
Slacker Extraordinaire
Specializing in nothing but knowledge in everything.
I also made a bow saw using a Nobex Proman 24tpi. It works well for most tenon work.
I have been a long time user of bow saws for everything after attending a Tage Frid seminar years ago. I build mine, it’s VERY easy! I have made many sizes, blades are available from “Tools for Woodworking”. They are easy to re-file to any tooth configurations you want, I have about ten of them, both rip and crosscut in 12” & 24” lengths.
I continually lost out on bidding for BowSaws on eBay until I learnedL:
a) how eBay works
b) actual value of a bowsawThen I ended up with three of them within a month. I sold one off and kept a beautiful handmade rosewood saw with a rip blade. Also kept one of the two Marples saws from England. One with a crosscut blade.Along the way, many people advised me to make my own. One problem, my shop won't be constructed for another few weeks. I've waited one year. Gasp.Best place IN THE WORLD to buy a bowsaw? Find out where the Old Galoots have a tool swapmeet in your area. In California, they are everywhere. Log onto oldtools.org and post a notice about your location. Or ask at a retail tool dealer or even a lumberyard.Tools at these swapments sell for 40% of those crazy eBay prices. And usually they are lovingly restored by people who know and love tools, not widows or kids selling off a dead parent's treasused workshop. I'm going to a swap meet tomorrow morning in Culver City near the old MGM Movie Studios. $45 is a reasonable price for one of these.Good Luck
Gary Curtis
Los Angeles
I've been looking for a good used tool place for vintage and handtools in L.A. area - do you mind revealing your Culver City stash?
I am reading the same books. Knowing that I didn't want to dedicate time to building a saw, I opted to purchase. The best quality ones I could find were called "Classic". I got mine from Dick Tool Co, but they're in Germany and they killed me on shipping. I later learned that Highland Hardware sells a similar saw, 700 mm in length I think. They also sell smaller models that can be fitted with a jig blade for fine work.
ECE bowsaws are available from Eddie Sirotich at Adria.
Do not buy the Putsch saw sold through Highland Hardware. It's junk.
Are you looking for a bowsaw for stock conversion, or a turning saw (which is a kind of bowsaw)?
Edited 2/15/2007 11:40 am ET by BossCrunk
Is there ANYTHING that Putz (sic) makes that's of reasonable quality? I have a timber saw and several other saw blades made by them, and they're all junk. Makes one wonder...Cliff
Nope. they give German manufacturing a bad name.
DST:
Bow saw plans:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bowsaw.html (this one has several links to bow saw plans)
And since you're looking at bow saws, here's some info on frame saws that you may find useful:
http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/frame_saw.php3
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_416.shtml
http://www.dsz123.net/Projects/FrameSaw/
Also, take a look over at Sawmill Creek: Bob Smalser has a couple of articles on building and using bow saws that are absolutely outstanding (he also recently did a superb article in FWW on chisels).
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
--A.C. Clarke
David,
I do all my sawing by hand and fell prey to Frid's and Guidice's hyperbole and unscientific experiments. In short, I found frame saws' chief advantage was that they used very little metal in a time when metal was expensive. Likewise, they allowed the use of unhardened or unhardenable metals for blades (like bronze). Turning saws for scroll work aside, 4' veneer saws aside, I found no real performance advantage and plenty of disadvanatges. And that makes sense- if it was really a better design as Guidice claimed, don't you think everybody would be using them?
I'm just throwing this out there so you don't feel you're missing something in 6 months when you decide these aren't worth the trouble.
Understanding their disadvantages can inform your design and construction. Here goes:
When ripping a long board, you obviously must rotate the frame to clear the stretcher. When you do that, your push, reacted at the toothed edge, creates a moment that must be reacted stiffly or the saw will flex and absorb some of your effort disconcertingly. You can handle this in different ways:
a) you can cross pin the stretcher to the cheek/arm of the saw.
b) you can attach the stretcher in a mortise and tenon
c) you can make a saddle joint as Frid advocated
Regardless, you must allow rotation of either this arm-stretcher joint or the far one for the string to tension the blade. Said differently, if you epoxied the stretcher in place, tightening the string would only bend the upper arms/cheeks and you'd get no blade tension. What you can do is epoxy the near side and leave teh far side free to rotate (about the stretcher). So that's the trick in building these things and getting them to perform.
Back to that rip opertaion, I find sawing with the frame hanging off the side to be disconcerting. I don't prefer sawing with two hands when I can help it, so this is a problem for me. I had better success sawing overhand (vertically) at the bench, tho I do this with western saws and its just as easy or easier.
That said- if you don't have a long backsaw, an 18" frame saw with a fixed blade is a reasonably substitute (for tenon work say). And I get great use from my 12" turning saw.
As to blades, I've tried them all except the japanese toothed blades. The Nobex blades are too fine for the work I do. Coarse teeth cut thick wood faster. The putsch blades are okay, but they need to be refiled and reset. They are like a saw blade "kit", requiring quite a bit of finish work. Band saw blades are okay as well, I just don't like resharpening them. But you can often find a band saw blade pretty close to the right teeth for your job.
So in conclusion, my view is that there is no one best saw design. But that the right saw teeth for the job at hand will, in any style of saw, outperform all others. I hope you build and enjoy a frame saw. But I also hope you aren't disappointed when Guidice's and Frid's claims fail to deliver. A good western saw is just as good or better and that's why people used and continue to use them.
Adam
Dave,
I have made a list of strong and valid reasons to build a bow-saw:
- because I feel like it.
- to add a new skill to my set of skills.
- to find out for myself what it can and cant do.
- to have my photo taken making dovetails with a bow-saw, just like Tage did.
- because I am a rebel.
- to upset my table-saw, my band-saw and my dozuki.
- it fits my persona and my weltanschauung.
- if Holtey can build and sell planes for $8000 apiece, why can't I build and sell bow-saws for $16,000 apiece.
- I plan to introduce legislation to enable a new constitutional amendment giving citizens the right to bear bow-saws, but before I do that, I want to make sure bow-saws are safe to use.
After you build your bow-saw, please post pictures and a list of lessons-learned.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Consider these slogans for possible bumper stickers:
Bowsaws don't cut dovetails, people cut dovetails.
If anyone wants to take my saw, he'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
Saw control means cutting to the line.
Ray, proud member of the Nat'l Bowsaw ####'n
I haven't used these but his other tools here are highly regarded. Small quality maker in Massachusetts.
http://www.woodjoytools.com/
I've also found Tools for Working Wood to be a great site and I believe they sell parts in addition to complete saws if you want to make your own.
Glad I read this post, I was considering buying a larger Putsch bow saw...
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