Replies

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Apr 19, 2007 01:11pm | #1

   Make them, Justaccord.

   Either that or buy a bit of bright rolled steel stock in the cross sections you need.

   It'll be accurate enough.

   Cheers,

   eddie

2. 
   nottingham | Apr 19, 2007 02:51pm | #2

   try lee valley tools canada,

   http://www.leevalley.com

   phone toll free   1-800267-8767

   an extremley reputable mail order company .

   i use them constantly        regards nottingham

3. 
   [email protected] | Apr 19, 2007 11:28pm | #3

   Depending on how big you are talking about, brass stock might work. 

   If you are looking for 1-2-3 blocks there are several sets on eBay, with decent buy-it-now prices. 

1. 
   Justaccord | Apr 20, 2007 12:53am | #4

   I was thinking about brass stock too. Is there a source you are aware of for metric brass (or steel) stock?TIADave

1. 
   [email protected] | Apr 20, 2007 01:52am | #5

   Dave, not off-hand.   What sizes are you looking for, and what are you intending to do with them? 

1. 
   Justaccord | Apr 20, 2007 02:05am | #6

   Assorted sizes 1 -10 mm; 10, 15, 20 50 for starters.I am switiching to metric and will use them for various tasks from router table to new Domino.Thanks

1. 
   RickL | Apr 20, 2007 02:37pm | #7

   For cheap you can't beat a set of metric allen wrenches. Those go up to 24mm. Or even a metric drill bit set. Also I have a digital metric/imperial caliper I got for $16 form a metal work supply company. You should start collecting the metal working catalogs. The wood catalogs are very limited in certain measuring applications.

2. 
   Justaccord | Apr 20, 2007 03:08pm | #8

   Great idea on the allen wrenches -- hadn't thought of that. Cut off the short leg and you have two lengths of hegaxonal stock.Thanks

2. 
   BobMc | Apr 25, 2007 09:04pm | #22

   http://mdmetric.com/metlshp3.htm

   I don't know these folks, and have not dealt with them, but they might be able to solve your problem. 

   I looked at a place where I've purchased imperial stuff, but they didn't have metric setup stuff in brass.  http://www.msdiscount.com

   No answer to your question could be considered complete without sending you to the thread http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=32201.1 wherein you will find that you're either a genius or a fool, or both, for choosing a measuring system when there are so many better ways to delineate distance than whatever method you chose. ;>)

   If you find a source, please let us all know.

1. 
   Justaccord | Apr 25, 2007 09:18pm | #24

   Thanks Bob. I have an email into those folks but they have not responded yet. I'll let you know.And no, I'm not willing to descend into the imperial-metric dialogue again -- it's all been said before.

1. 
   74extiger | Apr 25, 2007 10:41pm | #25

   bob,I'm also standing by for word from that Maryland supplier. Not to hijack this thread, if you are interested in the WoodRat, here is the N. American distributor. chipsfly.comThe device parallels the performance of the Leigh M&T and the Akeda DT jigs. Quite a bit more flexible, though that entails a steeper learning curve.Oh, the Metric/Enlish wars. When will they end.Gary Curtis

2. 
   Justaccord | Apr 26, 2007 01:58am | #26

   MDmetrics will not supply short lengths. Minimum is 3M in sizes starting at 4mm. If there is sufficient interest, we could put a group together, have the stock delivered somewhere on the East Coast, cut up by a volunteer and mailed on to the rest of us.Anyone interested? If so, I will pursue price discussions with the supplier.Dave

3. 
   BobMc | Apr 26, 2007 05:26am | #28

   Hey, Dave,

   I just got off the phone with Ed Bennett, who makes tool alignment systems--I have his TS-Aligner Jr, his angle set, and some other measurement tools from him.

   Ed thought that if he were to produce 10 to 12 sets, that the prices might be reasonable, with accuracy in the +/- .025 mm (.001") range.  He suggested that aluminum will wear as well as brass, and be less in material and machining costs.

   Anyhow if you can find a few others who want the same set that you do, Ed could give you a price to make the sets.  I didn't press too far, as I don't really have a pony in this race--my Lee Valley feeler gauge has metric fingers, that although aren't labeled as such, are .0254mm, .0381mm, .0508mm, etc. ;>) 

   Speaking of Lee Valley, did you consider http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32520&cat=1,240,41064 

   Take a look at http://www.ts-aligner.com/rsagageblocks.jpg, for an example of setup blocks that might be economical.  (I guess that depends on what your budget for measuring is.) 

   My only relationship to Ed is happy customer. 

   http://www.ts-aligner.com/

   http://www.ejbennett.com/

    

4. 
   Justaccord | Apr 26, 2007 06:47pm | #29

   Thanks Bob. Guess we have to find out if 10-12 of us are interested and then we can talk to Ed.The Lee Valley taper is a good idea too -- that will be useful for some of the tasks.Thanks again for your help.Dave

4. 
   Justaccord | Apr 20, 2007 03:10pm | #9

   Thanks for all your ideas so far. They have been very helpful.

   One more question. Since I know nothing about metalworking, do machinists work in metric, imperial or both? Should I be able to find brass or steel stock offcuts in small dimensions at a machine shop?

   Thanks

   Dave

1. 
   RickL | Apr 20, 2007 04:23pm | #10

   Metric stock isn't common in the states but it is available. The US is the last holdout on metric conversion.  It was starting years ago but Reagan dismantled the Metrification board. Buying liters of soda hasn't hurt anyone I'm aware of.

   http://www.metricmetal.com/index.htm

1. 
   [email protected] | Apr 20, 2007 07:29pm | #11

   Dave, the allen keys will probably work well for the small sizes, just remember they can damage carbide cutters, so you would need to take care if you use them near your router bits, etc. 

   For larger sizes you could cut your own on the table saw, out of plastic or good plywood.   

2. 
   mytulpa | Jun 04, 2007 07:33pm | #37

   i'm just reading this post and i almost fell off my chair when you said buying litres of soda never hurt anybody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what about all the fat, diabetic people out there who can't seem to figure out the correlation between soda and health problems?
   i can't believe you would say that.
   on a personal note, i love coke, but i stopped drinking pop of any kind last june. i haven't really altered my diet otherwise, but i've dropped forty three pounds in a year. and that was based on an average of two 12 oz. cans of coke a day. so, for everyone out there who can't seem to lose weight, STOP DRINKING POP. you'll look better and you'll feel better. and you might even get laid once in a while.

1. 
   RickL | Jun 04, 2007 08:22pm | #38

   Geez...ok liters of apple juice.  Some of the local colleges dropped Coke from the campus becuase of human right violations and such. Apparently the bottom line is more important than people with some pop companies.

2. 
   mapleman | Jun 04, 2007 08:23pm | #39

   mytulpa,

   STOP DRINKING POP. you'll look better and you'll feel better. and you might even get laid once in a while.

   OK I'm out! No more for me! Seriously, 43# is quite a bit of weight. I may have to look into this whole drinking soft drinks and being overweight thing.

   Lee

1. 
   74extiger | Jun 06, 2007 12:41am | #40

   I knew it. It's all Ronald Reagan's fault. He created two problems for me - I'm overweight and I can't find metric gauge blocks. Conspiracy if I ever saw one.To deal with this, I'm just going to mill some hard rock maple on my tablesaw to get metric stop blocks. gary curtisnorthern calif.

5. 
   chiefengineer | Apr 20, 2007 08:25pm | #12

   Hi

   Can I suggest that for metric equipment you check out ebay.co.uk or amazon.com for general stuff. If you really need metric equipment, then look for rscomponents.com which is a worldwide supplier - don't confuse it with Radio Shack though. RS Components will supply anything from a tool to a transistor to exotic machine grade steel. Not cheap though.

   If you are going to the UK then a company called screwfix.com is the best value and in the high street Machine Mart.

    

1. 
   polarsea1 | Apr 21, 2007 06:18am | #13

   Metric keystock is available (shaft keyways). Just give it a google.

1. 
   chiefengineer | Apr 21, 2007 06:33am | #14

   True it is available for keyways but using  keyway steel for a slip-gauge is okay if you are after a reasonable level of accuracy but not if you want something spot on. I'm guessing you are on a ship so you would be well aware of this I guess. I have seen plenty of ideas on this site for a metric setting block. One thing I would be careful of to anyone reading this is that if one wants to be reasonably accurate then stick to steel or better still stainless. I made a mistake when making a cabinet frame of using a 1m aluminium rule and a steel rule depending upon where I was working. When I tried to match up nothing quite measured up the same as the aluminuim rule had expanded 2mm more than my steel one as the day warmed up.

1. 
   polarsea1 | Apr 21, 2007 07:57am | #15

   Spot on? I'm ambivalent about that.

   I'm long past ships but I served aboard ten of them in 28yrs.

    

6. 
   PeteBradley | Apr 23, 2007 01:27am | #16

   You've got some good answers to the question you asked, so I can't help but exercise my curiosity as to why you're looking for such a thing for woodworking. I find that 90% of the time, I mark one thing off another, or machine everything from the same side, etc, so that I don't have to create "precision machined" parts out of wood. I use precisely thicknessed blocks for cutting tenons on a band saw, for instance, but they are odd sizes because they tend to be dimensions like "the thickness of a mortising chisel + the band saw kerf." I'm not questioning the wisdom of what you're doing, just interested in what it is.

   Pete

1. 
   Justaccord | Apr 23, 2007 07:40pm | #17

   Pete,I find set up blocks helpful for all kinds of things from setting fence on the new Domino to setting the height of router bits or amount of plunge on a router base.Having decided to go metric, one of the problems is that there is no economical, brass (which dont damage router bits, etc) set up blocks. There are several in imperial dimensions.HTHDave

1. 
   RickL | Apr 23, 2007 07:53pm | #18

   You can easily make your own...

   Brass is soft and can be cut with the table saw and very accurate tolerances can be held with filing or belt snading to bring it into the last few thousandths. I've done it many times. So you can easily make your own. Working with small pieces is also possible. When I worked as a metalsmith my woodworking  background opened all kinds of new ways to work brass the metal guys never imagined. I used to make cuts on the table saw within a few thousandths for slotting, grooving, ripping and crosscutting. I needed some slots to be .008" over sized.  I put a brass shim to make my negative hook non=ferrous saw blade wobble and there I had it.

    

1. 
   74extiger | Apr 24, 2007 06:05am | #19

   I just came across this thread - I've been looking for a set of Metric spacers or step guages. There are really none made for woodworkers. lee Valley only makes Imperial measure step bars. I have a WoodRat: it's sort of like a CNC machine (hand powered) that holds your router to make all sorts of woodworking joints. Lots of times I need to put a stop in that is half the size of one of my metric router bits. So I need a stack of little brass bars or rectangles in 3,4,5,6,8,10mm and so on.My friend suggested keyway stock used in machining, but I'd have to buy big quantities. In England, Axminster Tools sell plastic ones to be used by woodworkers. Cost is a little over $10. But shipping to the U.S. is $40. Ouch. Gary Curtis
   Northern California

1. 
   polarsea1 | Apr 24, 2007 09:31am | #20

   Gary, if you want metric keystock in small quantities you may be able to buy it from a motor repair shop or a small job machine shop.

7. 
   cmiller231 | Apr 25, 2007 06:57am | #21

   As far as router /router table why not use a horse shoe  shaped like below , wood can be used and metric  ind can be bought   The one on the right is to set router bit from fence and height.The one on left is used on router base . So there is no running trial pieces once measurements are written down.Six months from now just set to measurements and run.    If router bit is extended more than one inch in height  or radius is extended more than one inch  past fence use 1-2-3 blocks  between table /router base /fence   and  ind. gage.                                                          Chris

   View Image

1. 
   74extiger | Apr 25, 2007 09:07pm | #23

   I should have explained more thoroughly since most folks have never seen a WoodRat. It is an aluminum extrusion with a sliding rail and a sliding router mount. The router can be positioned accurately in each of 3 axis, x,y or z. With T-slots running in each of these axis, you have the option of setting a stop to control the length (or width, or depth) of cut. So, a quick way to position a cutter to its center point, is to run the slide to the left edge of the bit. Then drop in a guage bar that is one half the diameter of the cutter. And you have accurately poitioned to the center.The craziness comes in because this machine is sold with Metric cutters. So, I need metric guage blocks. I'm going to call a local machine shop and see if he'll sell me metric key stock cut offs. Oh, and I have a pretty complete set of English 1-2-3 set up blocks and guage bars in fractional sizes. Thanks,Gary Curtis

1. 
   [email protected] | Apr 26, 2007 05:06am | #27

   HUH!!  I use standard bits in my rat almost all the time.  In the video with Martin Godfrey, demonstrating the rat, he states you can use any cutter you want, but their hss steel ones will give better results in natural woods than most carbide bits (downside to hss it dulls quickly compared to carbide, up side you can sharpen it to a keener edge yourself than the carbide can be by machine).  And, only their dovetail bits give you the 1:9 profile that really looks hand cut, (mostly because the other jigs/fixtures can't cut a 1:9), or have the thin necks to do really narrow pins.

   The only time I use anything metric is the woodrat dovetail bits.  And, unless you, or they have come up with a new technique, (my rat is an old series three model, and I rarely go to their site any more), they are pretty much eyeballed.  The little inconsistencies you get by doing them by eye enhances the hand cut look that only a rat, or actually hand cutting them yields.   

1. 
   74extiger | Apr 26, 2007 11:33pm | #30

   JIgsNFixtures,So you've got a WoodRat? Here's where I need the metric step blocks. They are now making digital scales for both the North/South axis and East/West. And there are procedures for making finger joints and dovetails that use the numeric registration rather than plexiglass cutter profiles or pencil marks on the machine face. I also use the new Laser Guide (with stops) . See chipsfly.com for details and instructions. These latter instructions differ markedly from Martin Godfrey's DVD and from the WR Manual. In using either the metric DT cutters or straight bits, I quite often have to find the center of the bit. I do this by touching the edge of the bit to a stop. Then I insert a metric drill bit one-half the diameter of the bit in front of the stop. With this insertion, the router moves away from the stop and the bit is now centered on the work. For you, working the machine in the traditional way must be second nature. I have to learn it, and I've decided on a combination of the Laser Guide and Digital Scales. So far, I love the machine.Keep me abreast of the availability of the Metric Step Guages. Thanks
   Gary[email protected]

1. 
   [email protected] | Apr 27, 2007 12:18am | #31

   You know; that if you make perfect joints, they will just look like they were done on a CNC machine. 

   The old way takes a bit to learn for most people, but it seemed natural to me and there wasn't much of a learning curve. 

   Since you have the digital gauges, you can set them to metric, and move half the bit diameter pretty easily.   Even if you are working in inches, the digitals should switch back and forth to metric with just the push of a button. 

2. 
   74extiger | Apr 27, 2007 01:03am | #32

   I get your point about the 'hand' method. I'll learn it one of these days.Here's the challenge with the scale. You must establish a reference point to the bit since you are not using the Marker Position (left clamp) and an outline of the bit on the machine face. The scale has to align with something. Should it be the side of the bit? Or the center? A dovetail bit, or even a straight bit doesn't have a real center. It is a numerical value equal to half the diameter. So the sliding stops (either N/S or E/W) touch the edge and then need an offset to equal the center point. You then Zero out the scales, and you are in business. The problem isn't getting the DRO scales to read Metric. It is in getting a zero reference point to take the place of Marker Position on the sliding extrusion of the 'Rat.Gary

3. 
   [email protected] | Apr 27, 2007 01:11am | #33

   Zero on the edge of your bit, move half the diameter, and re-zero.  You are now at center of the bit.  At least to a higher degree of accuracy than you need for wood working. 

4. 
   QCInspector | Apr 27, 2007 11:23pm | #34

   I know you said that gauge blocks were too expensive, but I don't think the suggestions thus far will save all that much over these Chinese imports.http://www.shars.com/From page 17 of their online catalog, 87 piece Metric gauge block set for $99.00, product #303-5315

5. 
   Justaccord | Jun 04, 2007 03:59pm | #35

   Thanks for all the replies. I've done some serious checking and wanted to let you know what I found. Buying metric key stock in brass is not practical. Although it can be had in the US, it comes way long and although you can cut it, you'd be buying much more material than necessary. Brass is hard to find in metric sizes in any cases. Steel is much easier, but if you buy individual pieces they are way long and will cost a lot by the time you fill all the working sizes that would be helpful.The best solution to the problem for me was the Chinese metric set from Shars. The downside is that these gage blocks are steel, and so can nick router bits, etc, requiring some care in use.I still wonder if it wouldn't be worthwhile for someone with production facilities to mill up some little sets like the woodcraft set in brass and sell them online? Meantime, the Shars are doing just fine. Thanks for the tip, QCInspector.Dave

6. 
   JohnWW | Jun 04, 2007 05:11pm | #36

   Used with care, the steel blocks won't damage a hardened steel bit and they can't damage a carbide bit unless you hit the bit so hard that you chip the carbide.

   John W.