Replies

1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 15, 2006 06:53pm | #1

   Can you take a picture and post it?

1. 
   aew | Apr 16, 2006 12:07am | #4

   Let me try to attach a picture-first time I've done that and had some problems the first time around. The reds show up well in the photo but the others not so well. Just cut another log from the same tree today and it has purple coloration in it as well as red and blue-grey.Someone also said that the black deposits in true spalted wood are not iron oxide. That is correct. An old timer told me they are iron sulfide from fungus deposits. Anyway, here is the attached photo.

   
1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 16, 2006 12:25am | #5

   A lot of the color of the wood comes from where the tree is grown. Usually very white maple comes from the north such as in Michigan and Canada.What state do you live in?

1. 
   BruceS | Apr 16, 2006 12:59am | #6

   ??  Are we absolutely sure it's Maple and Not Box Elder,  Turners love Box Elder for look I'am seeing.  Box Elder has a leaf very similar to maple.

   Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S.  Counter Sales, Tech Rep.  http://WWW.EAGLEAMERICA.COM

    

    

   Edited 4/15/2006 6:00 pm ET by BruceS

1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 16, 2006 02:19am | #8

   That is my thought as well.It doesn't look like Maple to me. Hard maple will have rays that glimmer in the light. I have seen soft maple have some of those colors but not quite like that lumber.

2. 
   Floss | Apr 16, 2006 04:28am | #12

   Hi Bruce,Box Elder is maple. It is Acer negundo in the maple family Aceraceae. Although there ar over 200 species of maple it is one of the most popular. Probably due to it's range and tolerance for different soil types. It's leaves are pinnately compound, unlike the commercial maples like Red, Black and Sugar. It has 3-7 ,rarely 9, leaflets similar in shape to Red maple.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com

3. 
   BruceS | Apr 16, 2006 07:22pm | #18

   JP,  Up here in NE OHIO,  Our predominate Maples are Sugar and Red, Hard and Soft.  Very few Box Elders so we call them Box elders.  This is another one of those "local/name " things again.  Sorry for the confusion.  "Oak" here is generally Red Oak,  White oak is call White oak.Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S.  Counter Sales, Tech Rep.  http://WWW.EAGLEAMERICA.COM

    

    

2. 
   notDusty | Apr 16, 2006 01:37am | #7

   gb ,             I use quite a bit of natural Maple in my jobs and it is truly beautiful .

                  The way I understand it , the lumber I get is all Eastern Hard Maple the mill grades based on color . The desirable White FAS needs to have something like 85% white on one face . The boards with too much color don't make grade and get put into another stack called natural Maple , where anything goes including Curly and some Birdseye occasionally . 

              The Natural or more colored Maple comes from the same region and location as the White premium does . True , different regions may produce some different characteristics and color variations as well as grain .

              dusty

1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 16, 2006 02:28am | #9

   A lot of lumber is pawned off as hard maple by people who do not know the difference. In No. 1 white maple both faces and both edges must be sapwood. No. 2 white maple must have one face and both edges sapwood and one face must 50% or more sapwood.

2. 
   notDusty | Apr 16, 2006 02:42am | #10

     gb ,

                   Here out west the grading may be different , not so sure about that . The Maple I use is absolutely Hard maple .

              Just out of curiosity , what do they call or grade the Maple you speak of that does not make the grade ?

                           dusty

3. 
   gb93433 | Apr 16, 2006 03:29am | #11

   The lumber business is filled with many intentional crooks somewhere in the chain. The general public and lumber yards would not even know about those things because they know little or nothing about grading and tallying lumber. There are no western or eastern rules in the hardwood lumber business. The rules have been the same since about 1948.

4. 
   notDusty | Apr 16, 2006 04:30am | #13

   Hey gb ,

                Let me clarify , when we want White hard Maple  what is most often available is actually marketed as select White and it must be about 85% white on a face to make that grade .

           I buy from a company called Hardwood Industries and they buy carloads and do the surfacing and grading in house . After about 30 years of being a wood butcher myself it is not too difficult for me to tell the difference from soft to hard Maple .

          Like in any business there are crooks as well as honest folks , and I have to believe my source are above board  ( no pun intended ) . In reality they rely on their sources for honesty and accuracy as well .

             BTW , there is Natural Maple in soft and hard species , have you ever used the natural ? It is really beautiful and will have a harmony of color , try it you'll like it .

           regards          dusty

5. 
   gb93433 | Apr 16, 2006 08:48am | #14

   If you look at the NHLA grading rules for No.1 and No.2 white maple you will know what I mean. So many businesses rename standard grades established by the NHLA in an effort to sell product and make more money.All lumber is natural. To say that it must be 85% sap wood is something they have made up because they do not buy the material according to that rule. In fact most good suppliers will supply better than that. Rarely have seen a No. 1 white maple board contain any sapwood. That is either an indication of ignorance or misleading people to believe something that hardly exists in practice. If you have ever been to a conference with lumber folks one of the first things they talk about is if someone has intentionally shipped them bad lumber. The company who cheats people will not last long in the wholesale business, but can go a lifetime cheating the public. All domestic hardwood lumber is bought and sold according to the NHLA rules. When I graded lumber never once did somebody ask us to grade something they made up. The market report gives a weekly price for each grade of lumber in each species, KD and green. You won't find a grade of natural on the market report. Ask that company where their computer grader and tally machine is located.I have seen soft and hard maple which is hardly distinguishable in weight and appearance. The real way to tell the difference is in the rays. I looked at the company’s website. They are bad mouthing the NHLA. Their website does not mention that they are members of the NHLA. The NHLA rules are the legal standard that weights and measures in the US uses. The rules have not changed since 1948. Companies can make more money with proprietary grades. They are taking a grade and splitting it into subgrades. It is kind of like a store which went from selling clothes and now no longer sells big and tall clothes for the regular clothes price but will sell them for more money rather than mix them in with the regular clothes. When a company pulls widths they are handling it more and are also selling wider widths for a premium and making more money. It is easy to tell it when companies pull widths. If you ask for a load of lumber you will usually get widths less than 10". Trees are not made that way. Trees will produce a mixture of narrow and wide widths. If you do not see that then they are not giving you a fair representation of the lumber produced from logs. What they failed to mention is that the NHLA grading rules were established as an agreement between the end user and the saw mills. They are an end user. The next time you visit that place ask them if you could speak with a person who has graduated from the NHLA inspection school in Memphis, TN.
   When lumber is sanded it cover a lot of defects that planers do not. That abrasive belt grinds the surface and pushes wood fibers into the defects.Those kind of companies are making an effort to make themselves look better than anyone else by giving the impression that everyone else is a crook or produces inferior material. You do know the story about the person who criticizes everyone else is guilty of?What their website fails to tell the consumer is that hardly does a company grade according to the standard KD rules but rather according to the special KD rules. They are misleading the public by stating that others are shipping bad materia and they are more ethical and deliver a better product. What they did not tell you is that they are pulling the best material from the loads they are getting. Do you really think they are selling that nice material for a typical FAS price and the lesser material for less than an FAS price? I could easily cheat a buyer right in front of their face and they would thank me. I could easily cheat them on grade and often on tally too. I worked for a very reputable company years ago and we came to the conclusion that about 85 percent of the smaller yards which sell to the public are cheating their customers on tally. They often cheat on tally but not on grade because they know almost nothing about grade. Read their webpage at http://www.hardwoodind.com/services/services.html Sometime ask them what 'Hardwood Scale' is.Just ask your self sometime “Why are they only on the west coast so far from the source and from where people know more about grading lumber?” You won’t hear the nonsense they print in those areas. If you know the business and the grading rules you would know that what they are saying is much like saying that they are selling better apples because they are improving the grading rules because the grading rules are poor. When everyone in practice is way above those rules and using the special grading rules which they failed to tell you about.

6. 
   notDusty | Apr 16, 2006 06:53pm | #17

   gb,

             Thanks for all your expert information . I don't know if I would say I am being cheated when I get exactly what I ask for .

        Also I am not so sure they make more money by creating the subgrades and by gaining the ability to move all boards regardless of the true grade .I think what you said was they may be buying lower grades and re - grading the stock into subgrades that don't exist within NHLA grading rules or guide lines , to further the yield . They have to handle the material many more times to do this I agree .

            The Select White they sell is around $4.50 or so per bf depending on quantity the material I buy as Natural costs me closer to $ 2.25 per bf . I use the lumber for its character and beauty and feel the lower cost represents the value to the open market demand for White .

             Since it is a fact that some Maple boards will have too much mineral or color or otherwise will not make the #1 White grade does the #2 cover the boards I use that have much color ? Or are there common grades and so on that allow more color and defects ?

           It sounds as though you may doubt the company has a computer grader and tally machine ? I really have no idea if one exists , and am not sure how that would effect me one way or the other . The orders are tallied when pulled if less than a full unit . They told me I was one of the only customers who has asked them for a tally stick . Every now and then I will check the tally to keep them honest and it is always consistent .

            I am very picky on what I use , and always make it clear what I want . After doing business with them for over 20  years they have become very sensitive to my needs and take good care of me and I have no complaints with them , regardless of their grading practices .

        I also have to completely agree with the fact that sanded lumber is made to look more uniform in color and can hide some defects . For me since I do not have a wide belt in shop buying the sanded works out nicely especially with species that have a tendency to chip and grain pull .

           Happy Easter to all

                                  dusty

      

    

7. 
   gb93433 | Apr 17, 2006 12:45am | #19

   FAS material has a grading span whiuch ranges from boards which are clear and no defects to those which include some defects. Hardwood lumber is not defect graded. It is graded using the cutting unit method. Most people on the west coast do not have a clue about how lumber is graded and only look at its appearance. Essentially a bigger board can have more defects and make the same grade as a much smaller piece with almost no defects. If maple does not qualify as No.1 or No. 2 white maple it is graded on standard grades and sold as maple. If it has a lot of mineral stain it comes from areas where it will grow faster and suck up minerals from the ground. No. 2 white maple must have one face and two edges of sapwood and not less than 50% sapwood on the other face. Heart wood will have more defects such as checks and splits. When a company buys a FAS grade and separates out material from the same pile they are pulling out the best material and selling it for a premium and leaving the poorer end of the grade for others to buy. That happens a lot in large companies and areas farther away from the source. They are not going to lose money. The reason I asked if they have a computer grader is because they may be buying lumber from a large company which uses one. They did not list any locations in areas where the lumber comes from. They did not mention any dry kilns or concentration yards. If they are buying from reputable companies there is no need to degrade lumber. A good supplier grades the lumber when they purchase it and degrades any bad material after kiln drying. If you want to know more about the NHLA rules go to http://www.natlhardwood.org/pdf/Rulebook.pdfThe bad companies do not last very long. They will not have customers and suppliers will not sell to them.

8. 
   notDusty | Apr 17, 2006 07:57am | #20

      gb ,

                  Thank you very much for all the info you have supplied , just goes to show we can learn new things continually . Or at least I try to .

                        dusty

3. 
   aew | Apr 16, 2006 04:52pm | #16

   I'm in New Hampshire. It is quite possible it is not maple but box elder. I cut the tree several years ago not long after we bought the property. It was a field tree and if I remember correctly, it only had leaves for one year after we moved in and I don't remember their appearance.In any case, this generated a lot of interesting dialogue and I appreciate all the feedback. In the final analysis it doesn't matter to me whether it is maple or something else-it is a beautiful wood and now I need a project to use it.

2. 
   hdgis1 | Apr 15, 2006 08:26pm | #2

   I cant be too specific about chemical composition, etc but I have heard that the soil characteristics of the region the tree was grown in can have a large effect on the tannins which give a tree its color. Its possible that some kind of chemical applied to the ground surrounding the tree could have leached into the tree and created those colors.

3. 
   highfigh | Apr 15, 2006 10:41pm | #3

   Spalting is the first stage of decay and the black wouldn't be from iron oxide. That would be reddish brown because it's rust. Iron reacting with tannic acid would be black but it's not a simple oxide. If the tree was a silver maple, it's possible that someone was trying to kill it with copper nails or copper sulphate. The colors could still be from fungus, too. I haven't seen much red but have seen a lot of brown and tan in "natural" maple flooring, plywood and dimensioned lumber. Most of the grey I have seen was in soft maple which was pretty punky.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
4. 
   frenchy | Apr 16, 2006 04:41pm | #15

   AEW,

    I suspect that someone sold you Boxelder as maple,,  Heck easy to do, they are both members of the same family and a large boxelder tree can easily produce the colors you mentioned.. I have many boardfeet of boxelder up in my attic as braces.. it's stuning to look at the wicked red streak that seems to dance around the board..

    I've seen a variety of colors in boxelder and they all can be amazing.. too bad there is no market for such wood.  I only paid 20 cents a bd ft  for mine and really only noticed the color when I ran it thru the planer..

     The sawmill I buy from knows the differance and sorts out the boxelder and send it to the pallet mills, however it would be really easy to sell it as maple!

   
   

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   Edited 4/16/2006 9:44 am ET by frenchy