Replies

1. 
   ring | Feb 01, 2006 11:04pm | #1

   I don't know how you could establish "standard", but yes, using biscuits is a very acceptable way to attach them.  My shop does 3-4 kitchens a month, and we use biscuits to attach face-frames in 90% of them.

   DR

2. 
   Glaucon | Feb 02, 2006 05:37am | #2

   You can use biscuits- but keep in mind that while they aid in alignment, they do not add any real strength... the (aliphatic) glue joint of the face frame to the carcass is side grain to side grain, and is stronger than the wood itself. I usually make my cabinets singly, the frame has a small reveal and alignment is not much of a problem, so I don't bother with biscuits.

   Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

1. 
   bd | Feb 02, 2006 04:08pm | #3

   Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this, but Glaucon's comments piqued my curiosity. I hear that repeated over & over, these days.I'm just getting back into woodworking after a long hiatus. Back when most people were still using hide glue, I believe the "common knowledge" was that glues were much stronger in shear than they were in tension. Thus, one of the reasons for the development of the finger joints, glue joints, dowels & maybe even the biscuit(?). Now, with the newer, much stronger glues, the "common knowledge" seems to be that these joinery techniques aid alignment, but do nothing for strength. In order to keep this from turning into a treatise & hijacking the tread, I'll stop my discussion at this point.Ignoring the butt joints that occur in frame or carcass construction, etc., does anyone have any data, anecdotal or otherwise, to support the position that biscuits, glue joints, etc., do not aid in joint strength?bd

1. 
   Glaucon | Feb 02, 2006 06:18pm | #4

   The biscuit question can get a little heated...as noted in past threads.

   My point was not that biscuits don't add any strength in this face frame application, but that that it would be marginal.  Since face frames are gued with grain side to side to the carcass, the strength of such a glue joint is similar to a side to side glue up of edge jointed boards. For aliphatic ("yellow") glues, the strength of the glue joint exceeds the strength of the adjacent wood. This has been shown in numerous settings, and I think that it is specifically referenced in the USDA "Wood" handbook.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

2. 
   jrogerh | Feb 02, 2006 11:13pm | #9

   How do you make the reveal between the face frame and the side of the cabinet?  Would this be a good place to use a bead of some sort?

1. 
   Glaucon | Feb 04, 2006 05:01pm | #11

   It depends on the cabinet. I've used the reveral on single, free standing cabinets. This allows for a little more of a decorative touch, and means that if you are slightly off in centering the frame, it won't show.

   A recent cabinet I made holds a telephone and televison in my kitchen.  The cabinets already in the kitchen were ~8 years old and made from natural cherry in a Shaker style.  I made a matching cabinet of cherry with similar raised panels etc.  I wanted the back of the cabinet to be open to allow for the wires and cables, but I wanted also to prevent racking.  So I made face frames  with M & Ts for both the front and the rear.  The frames are ~3/4" larger than the carcass, so they over hang by 3/8" on all sides.  I rounded them over on each side, a detail that picks up the crown moulding on the top. The result was pleasing and ensures very strong construction with out the need for a solid or ply wood back.Glaucon

   If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...

3. 
   notDusty | Feb 02, 2006 06:27pm | #5

   jrogerh ,

                   As Ring stated , there may not be one standard in all cases . Partly depending on the scope of the project may determine the best method for that job. Modular ready made type of cabinets may use entirely different methods . On most of my jobs the face gets glued and clamped , then trimmed and sanded . Learn to rely on the strength of the glue . Nails or pins are quite acceptable especially where they don't show .

               Dowels & biscuits are great for alignment but imo offer little strength , in theory once the glue is dry we could remove the nails or biscuits and not loose holding power .

              A face that gets glued and clamped is as strong as any imo . Some shops put a VEE groove where the face meets the box side on the finished ends  and it eliminates filling and sanding flush in many cases , but honestly on some done that way you can see light through the seam , especially if no clamps are used .

                       good   luck         dusty

4. 
   Ozzy | Feb 02, 2006 06:39pm | #6

   Hi,

   I don't think we have correspoded before, so good to meet you!

   I am a relative rookie to this also, but I did build a set of kitchen cupboards (I posted them in knots a few months back), and followed the advice of Jim Tolpin, in his book 'Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets'.  He advocates using pocket screws, so that's what I did.  With a few reservations, I found them pretty good, but not fool-proof.  My face frames were English Oak, and only 40mm (1 1/2 inches) wide, and I did experience some splitting.  The other problem is aesthetics - I don't much care for the sight of a pocket screw head in the side of the cupboard - even if it is only visible when open.  The biggest problem was the drill bits.  Although the tool I used is sold by 'Trend' here in the UK, it uses Kreg drill bits, and I found I could only drill perhaps 5 or 6 holes before the drill proke at the smaller diameter.  Trend willingly gave me replacements, but I found that by drilling extremely gently, I could extend the life of them indefinitely - any one want 1/2 dozen unused drill bits?  I suspect that this 'gently does it' approach may reduce the life of the hardened steel drill guides in the tool.  The biggest concern is probably that because my face frames were narrow, it means that they join the rails to the stiles with butt joints (albeit aided by pocket screws), and this end grain to long grain joint will carry virtually no glue strength.

   Good luck, and let me know how you gey on, if you would,

   Ozzy

1. 
   jrogerh | Feb 02, 2006 11:10pm | #8

   Greetings Ozzy.  It sounds to me like no jointery is really needed for face frames.  The simple edge grain-to-edge grain joint should be adequate to withstand any shear forces. 

5. 
   wchips | Feb 02, 2006 06:42pm | #7

        Hi.

      I use biscut joints along the sides, and pocket hole on top and bottom , where ever the pocket hole will not show. on the bottom side of upper kitcken cabinets i use pocket holes and fill the hole with plugs. I also use a small amount of glue along the edge with the biscuts and the pocket holes. I belive you would have to totally distroy the cabinet to get the face frame off after the glue is set.

          Have a nice day Lee

1. 
   loucarabasi | Feb 03, 2006 02:11pm | #10

   I use biscuits and pocketholes but I place a thin sheet of painters plastic over the cabinet before I put the face frame on (so I dont have to mask off inside of cabinet). Make sure you put glue in the the cabinet holes before you put the plastic down. the biscuits pierce the plastic and make way to the glue. The pocket hole helps to clamp the faceframe to the cabinet til the glue sets up. It works well for me

   -Lou

1. 
   wchips | Feb 05, 2006 08:07pm | #13

      Hi

      That is a good idea I will hgave to try that

                              Have a nice day Lee

6. 
   mike4244 | Feb 04, 2006 07:14pm | #12

   I plow a dado, 1/8" deep into the back of the face frame stock. No biscuits just glue. The dado is a good way to align the frame on the case, also gives you more glue surface though I doubt this is much of a consideration. I glue up the frame separately. Where the rails meet the stiles I remove the excess wood with a trim router or chisel. If you are a bit sloppy here it doesn't matter as you can't see it. The only place that the dado is visible is the bottom of the stiles, a stopped dado would take care of this. I don't bother with a stopped dado unless there is a specific reason to do it.I had one job where the cabinets were 10'-0 off the floor, display cabinet in an antique shop.I used stopped dado here, only time I used it.

   mike