Spiral Cutterhead Options for Jointer
Hi All,
I’m thinking of getting a Ridgid 6″ jointer and upgrading it to a Sunhill spiral cutterhead. I learened recently that the upgrade is not difficult to perform.
This would give me a jointer with a better blade-changing system for about $525. Grizzly makes a 6″ spiral cutterhead jointer, but it costs about $1,050. I don’t want the Grizzly anyway; I’m just using it here as a comparison.
There seem to be two types of “spiral” cutterhead — one has a bunch of square knives inserted individually (Grizzly), and another has a single blade like a classic jointer that is inserted in indexed slots (Sunhill).
Which system is better? Are they equal? Or does each have its own advantages? Has anyone gone through the process of swapping out a blade?
Here are photos of the two types I’m looking at. Note that with the Sunhill model, it’s the continuous straight part that forms the cutting edge.
Edited 9/22/2005 1:11 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Replies
I have experience with square knives in a spiral planer from Oliver. The whole system depends on all square segments being sharpened identical to each other. IF this is achieved (seldom) everything for set-up and knive rotation goes quick.
For a jointer, I own a 16" wide, with a auxillary fence that is tapered. This gives me a shear cut without the expense of a spiral cutterhead. Old used wide jointers can be found a reasonable prices after a search.
DonC,
Lucky you with a 16" jointer!
I'm only a semi-pro, so I can't justify a 16" jointer. Also, my shop space would not allow it. That's why I'm still looking at the 6" option.
I've used, but don't own an 8" Sunhill jointer with the spiral blade. It gave a nice cut and the blade change was simple since the blades are self aligning. By comparison, the segmented head machines often leave small lines on the stock that needed light sanding or scraping to clean up as smooth as the finish off the Sunhill head.
The spiral head may give a slightly better finish than a conventional head, and I'm not sure the small difference is worth the extra expense. However the slightly better finish combined with the ease of blade changing definitely makes the Sunhill head worth considering.
The blades are single edged, which means that blade changes are a bit expensive, so you don't want to beat the blades up by running dirty or knot filled wood across them.
When changing out the head, you will probably have to shim up one of the bearings a few thousandths of an inch. This has to be done to get the blades in perfect crosswise alignment with the edges of the tables, and this can be a fussy process. Getting the alignment right could take a half hour or more and you'll need a small pack of shim stock in varying thicknesses. Standard heads, with resharpenable blades, don't need to be aligned perfectly because the knives themselves are adjusted to align with the tables whenever new blades are installed.
You will also need a bearing puller to remove the bearings from the old head, but the job would be considered relatively simple for someone with experience repairing machinery.
If this seems like more work than you want to tackle, why not buy a set up machine from Sunhill? The Sunhill probably isn't all that different from a Ridgid jointer, just not quite as nicely finished as the Ridgid.
John W.
By comparison, the segmented head machines often leave small lines on the stock that needed light sanding or scraping to clean up as smooth as the finish off the Sunhill head.
Well, I got a jointer with this type of head earlier this year (Grizzly G9860ZX), and that hasn't been the case. I noticed some lines once, but it was due to a loose cutter that had gotten a bit of sawdust underneath, and had gotten out of alignment.
I love mine. The carbide stays sharper much longer than conventional cutters, and I never have to worry about sharpening (as far as I'm concerned, sharpening is for chisels and hand plane blades, not machine tools). You don't get the "scalloped" machine marks like you get from conventional planers.
The Byrd heads are a little different than the Grizzly's, in that the heads are mounted such that the cutting edge is not parallel to the axis of the cutterhead (and thus not perpendicular to the directin of rotation). Great advantages in tearout reduction are thus claimed. Some testing on another forum by a shop that has both says that they found that one can feed the stock faster on the Byrd than on the Grizzly, with the same amount of tearout. This makes sense. They also found more lines and ridges on the Byrd. They speculated that this was due to improper, misaligned, mounting of some cutters on the Byrd, but this was not confirmed (i.e., they didn't say that they found the misaligned cutters, nor that fixing them caused the lines ot go away).
I observed that, with the cutters tilted, the cutters may be more likely to leave lines. Thw way they are positioned, the cutting edges need ot be machined to be the shape of a portion of an ellipse. Someone posted a close-up of one of the carbide cutters and the edges are curved, but it is difficult to determine how accurate it is. I guess with CNC's, they could machine the edges to anything. In any case, those with the Byrd heads seem very happy with them.
I agree with you- and I'm in the market for a Grizzly spiral head. From where I sit, there seem to be several advantages:
1. The carbide cutters last longer than HSS
2. If an individual cutter is nicked it can be rotated or replaced.
3. The "knife" change out seems simpler and easier to perform. This probably means, that along with being relatively inexpensive, I'd be more likely to do it, than to muddle along with a nicked knife in the midst of a project.
I don't buy the argument about "which jointer gives the smoothest finish". IMHO that's not the primary job of a jointer, but rather to get a flat surface or edge. The finish can be tweaked with a 4 1/2 smoother...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I have the Grizzly G0543 with a spiral cutter head. I have yet to nick a cutter and I run glued up edges that have been glued with Titebond. Titebond on a HSS knife would definitely nick the knife on my old jointer. I have even run some aluminum edges through the Grizzly with no ill effects. Remember you have 4 cutting edges on each cutter and if you need to rotate it is an easy task. Also, I have never noticed any tracks when using the Grizzly. The Byrd head because of the cutter geometry will leave some tracks.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Edited 9/23/2005 5:34 pm ET by JerryPacMan
All,
I wrote to Sunhill Machinery to ask some questions about the spiral versus the helical cutterhead options. I got a good response that helped me make a decision!Below is the text of my exchange:----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Schenker" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:44 AM
Subject: Spiral or Helical Head for Ridgid Jointer?Hi There,
I am buying a Ridgid 6" jointer (JP0610) and I want to upgrade to the spiral or helical cutterhead. I was wondering if you could help me figure out which one is better.I know that both are easy to do blade changes. Since I'm a hobbyist wwoodworker, I don't expect to change blades that often.I've heard that the helical head leaves grooves in the wood surface. Is this true?What is your recommendation?Thanks,
Matthew>>>>>
>>>>>Sunhill wrote:Hello Matthew,Yes, the helical head can leave lines if you're not extremely
precise while setting the knives in their pockets. Also, the pockets must be operating room clean. If a tiny bit of pitch gets into the pocket you'll see a line on your board. However, most projects are sanded prior to staining and it wouldn't take much to brush away any line left by the knife. As well, the helical knives are carbide and will last a long time.The spiral head on the other head is only $149 and will give an extremely nice finish on all woods all the time, until the knives get dull and being high speed steel and not carbide, this will happen more often than with carbide.
Edited 9/23/2005 6:01 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
John,
I've heard from several people now that swapping out a jointer cutterhead is not that difficult. On the other hand, I have read instructions for swapping out a planer head and it looks to be way more than what I'm interested in doing!
There's actually three types. The third is the Shelix from http://www.byrdtool.com Sunhill sells the Byrd as well. The cutters are mounted on a shear while the Grizzly are mounted straight but in a helical pattern around the head. I would be more inclined to have a helical head on a planer. You could skip face the board to have it flattened and then run it through the planer. What the point of having a helical head on a jointer if the planer is going to rip it up. Do have experience with many different heads. Have serviced tools for many years and have even shaprened the stagger tooth heads on the older Oliver and PM planers. We run a helical style cutterhead on our moulder for the initial roughing cut but use straight knives to finish. Good sharp straight knives do a great job as well. The helical is catching attention for guys who sharpen their knives as little as possible because it's a real chore for them. Changing straight knives often is another way to go. Of course it helps to be able to change them in 20 minutes on a 20" four knife jointer.
I'm on board with the Shelix head. I have PM54A (6") jopinter that I upgraded. Very nice.John
Rick,
I didn't mean to leave out the Byrd. I've heard they are great. But it's a little outside my price range, unless I'm missing something.
Run the number. Carbide lasts 8 to 10 times longer. Compare the cost of the Sunhill HSS spiral cutters to the insert carbide cutters. Sunhill also carries the Byrd heads. The insert heads do have a tendency to leave small grooves. I've been using insert heads on moulders and shapers for a number of years and several brands. The plus on the carbide insert heads is if a knife gets damaged you can rotate that section. The down side of the HSS spiral head is if the knife is nicked the whole knife is ruined. I don't know if you could slide the knife to minimize the nick but in general the theory sounds good but it doesn't work as well as it sounds in the real world.
Like I said I'd be more inclined to get an insert planer and skip face the boards on a jointer with a regular head. Put your money where it makes the most sense. Why have a tear free jointer if the planer is going to chew up the difficult grain.
Rick,
Thanks for the input. It's very helpful.The story so far...The HSS cutterhead is $149 from Sunhill. The replacement blade sets are $18.95 each. That's for 3 blades.The Helical cutterhead is $318.50 from Sunhill. The replacement blades are $30 for a box of 10, and you need 30 cutterheads in total for a 6" machine. So to replace all the cutterheads would be about $90 for the Helical head. But since each tip is really four blades, you could say it is really $22.50.Sounds like blade-changing time is equal on both the Tersa (Sunhill spiral) head and the Helical heads. So, startup costs are about $150 more for the Helical head. But if the Helical blades last a lot longer, that would tip the scale slightly in favor of the Helical head.I have heard that the Helical makes less noise. But then again, I have heard that the Helical is not good if you do rabetting on the jointer.But what about this question of cut quality? I don't think I would want to upgrade to a Helical if it leaves grooves on the surface.
Edited 9/23/2005 9:33 am ET by MatthewSchenker
Matthew, Both my jointer and planer ( which are Mini Max) have the Tersa cutterhead. This is similar to the Sunhill. Changing knives has never been easier and they set themselves to within .003" . I've heard that this cutterhead can be installed aftermarket as well. I can change out all four knives in less than 5 minutes. Bill
Bill,
Thanks for your reply. That's what I was hoping to hear! I did not know that the Sunhill design was similar to the Tersa cutterhead. I've heard a lot of favorable opinions of the Tersa from owners of the old Inca machines.As you said, I'm looking at the aftermarket cutterhead available from Sunhill. The reason I created this discussion is because when I looked at the Sunhill cutterhead, it was different from other spiral cutterheads I had seen before. Rather than a bunch of square tabs, you have a single knife edge, but it is held in place by tabs.So it looks to me like getting a Ridgid jointer, then adding the Sunhill cutterhead, is a good option.Thanks again!
The Tersa is not like the Sunhill head actually. The Sunhill is a HSS spiral type knife and the Tersa is a straight knife. Both are preset for height but they are inherently different. The Tersa is traditional in the sense of being a straight cutter and the Sunhill cuts on a shear. Just looking at the two side by side will reveal this.
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