OK, I’m having a hard time understanding the difference between what’s refered to as a “riving knife” on the Euro saws and the common splitter on US saws. I think I understand the funciton of both, at least the splitter, and I know what the term “rivving” means with respect to hand working raw pieces of wood.
For the dummy in the crowd, what distinguishes a riving knife on a table saw from the common (in the US) splitter?
Sidebar issue – isn’t the most important thing to consider in ripping stock on a table saw that it stay in contact with the saw’s fence? That being the case, wouldn’t some type of spring loaded ‘finger’ thin enough to fit inside the saw kerf and designed to hold the outfeed end of the work piece against the fence make some sense?
I think I’ve learned more about tools and tool useage from this forum in the past coupla months than I have over the past 30 years of just turning on switches and making small pieces of wood out of big pieces.
Thanks.
[email protected]
Replies
This explanation, from Norm_in_Fujino, is as clear as it gets.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7956.21
Wow - that was fast, Don. Thanks for the reference.Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Norm -
Thanks for the explanation and description of the riving knife that Don pointed me to.
Now to figure out how to retro fit something like this to my Unisaw!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Aside from Delta's splitters, Biesemier has one that's supposed to fit American-made table saws including Delta. They will send you literature. Mine is on the way. Sells for just over $100.
Aside from Delta's splitters, Biesemier has one that's supposed to fit American-made table saws including Delta.
------------------
This is a splitter, not a riving knife. Keep that in mind.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Edited 10/19/2002 2:30:13 AM ET by Lee
What I'll try to keep in mind is the correct spelling of Biesemeyer which apparently escaped your fine tuning.
Jim
I believe I called it a splitter (sic).
The large wing nut is on top of the guard. FAST QUICK AND EASY to adjust and lockdown the guard parallel to the saw table when changing blade height and could also function as a board holddown.
Sarge has a picture of his prototype posted which helped me to visualize this.
BTW, the college has BIESEMEYER overhead guards and for narrow rips, they are a hazard IMHO .
cheers, have a good weekend
silver
Edited 10/19/2002 2:18:18 PM ET by silver
silver
Yep, still kicking the idea around. Can't promise a end result of the riving knife as the Unisaw splitter does not move up and down with the blade as my saw. But the crown gaurd is promising. Your idea is almost the exact thing I though of after a cup of coffee and some thought. I thought that two vertical slots cut in the stock splitter would solve the problem of crown height. Loosen the two T-nuts ( wingnuts ) and the crown will slide up and down to co-ordinate with the height of blade to table. You could make a long crown that covers the entire stock splitter or just a portion of it.
I'm finishing a hall plant stand for my wife as a gift for our anniversary Mon. ( Well, it it going to have a belt-disc sander mounted to the top also. I explained to her that you just had to take the 2 3/8" hold down bolts off the sander and remove it and it is a hall plant stand. Just doubles as a sander stand. ha..ha..he..he.. ). She just doesn't seem to under-stand the flexible concepts I come up with. While I'm out buying a gift today (ha..ha..), I will try to drop by and have a look at the Unisaw. I'm curious to see the guts to see if there are any possibilities of an add-on that would move with the blade. If it's anyting like the PM 66, it would require some engineering. May have TJ (mechanical engineer friend) take a look also to see what he thinks the possibilities are. He designed the guts of my junk-saw. Have to track him down as he is very busy with a lot of community functions he is involved with.
Lets put several minds to work and see what we can shake up!
sarge..jt
Take that splitter, sarge and add 6" to it straight up vertical. Now up above the tabletop, add a 4"slot and that's where the large wing nut connects to crown guard. To adjust from 1" to 2" stock, loosen wingnut, adjust crown guard up and parallel.
Lock down and let her rip...the crowngurd is now 1/8" above material,parallel and will prevent stock from being able to lift...
Just trying to get on the same page here.
BTW Sarge,I live on the Canadian lakehead of Superior.
cheers,
silver
silver
I agree that you will have to go up with the splitter. There's no other choice to get an adjustable height on the crown. I might suggest two slots. I added two so if the stock lifts, there is no chance of the crown pivoting. I'm not sure what might happen if it did, but I don't want to find out. Ha..
Thought you were near commercial shipping from e-mail as to the reference ligumvitae and what you do with it. I got two friends here in Atlanta that are Canadian and a bunch of great Canadian customers. Haven't been up in a while and would like to one of these days soon.
BTW, I want to look to see how the stock splitter attaches in the rear. Curious to see if a bracket could be added there that would allow the stock splitter or a custom one to be be moved up and down and forward and rearward. Just a thought that hasn't been examined yet as I didn't get to see the Unisaw today. Will shoot for Monday..
sarge..jt
Sarge -
Guess you haven't checked email recently or perhaps the message didn't get through. I posed a question that perhaps would be relavent here.
Other than the fact that it would interfere with no-through machine operations such as dadoes or grooves, is there any reason why a rivving knife could not be above the blade? What I'm thinking is if one were to mount a rivving knife on a north american style trunnioned table saw that swings along the same center as the arbor, if it were to be just below the blade ht at the lowest elevation of the blade, as the blade is raised, the rivving knife would, of course rise "faster" and at the highest blade ht. setting be above the blade some distance. How would this be detrimental to the operation of the knife, if indeed it would be?
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
I did get your e-mail. I was waiting to answer after I saw the Unisaw up close. I'm not sure where you're suggesting the mounting. That's why I wanted to see it personally. A rivving knife should be curved around the back side and slightly over the top of the blade. It should be about 1/16 distance from the blade for the entire lenght of the front leading edge. I made mine from an old blade. One is 1/8" thick for a regular blade and the other I ground 3/32" for TK's that I mostly use. My old junk saw is designed like the Euro's and is set up for the knife to move up and down and tilt with the blade.
If you mounted a crown gaurd to the stock splitter on the Uni, you would have to come up with a method to manually raise and lower to get the proper distance to the blade. Look at silver's post as to how we can do it with the crown. The knife is another story as you suggested in e-mail. I think it can be done if there is enough room under-neath the table, but at what cost of engineering and having a machine shop produce a component. I'm having a friend (MEng) look at it. He will give me a better idea. He is the one who designed the guts on my saw (go back to archives and see My T/Saw is Junk).
Explain what you are thinking in detail as to the rivving knife. I can't quite picture it as I need to see the saw closer. BTW, even with the Euro's and Norm and I's saws, the rivving knife sits high enough over the blade that it has to be removed for non-through cuts. This is just a reality.
Get back when you can. I have been extremely busy in the shop as fall has arrived and I don't waste much time as in the summer when the humidity is high here. We may not be able to come up with a rivving knife but a crown gaurd is not much of a problem to build. BTW, how tall and wide are the add-on splitters for the Unisaw?
sarge..jt
Dennis
Re-read your post and missed an important question. Sorry, I'm extremely tired this week as have logged much shop time till late in morning.
The height above the blade would not matter over-all as the stock passes below it anyway. The crown can be lowered on that knife to sit just over the blade. The crown would have to be taller also to accomodate slots that allow it to slide vertically up and down on the knife. You could just mount a crown on the existing splitter that comes with the saw. The splitter would not move up and down with the blade, but the crown could. Safer that the existing system that come with the saw. Have to take those guillotine pawls and Lexan cover off. If you haven't seen a crown, go back in archives and see the one I posted.
sarge..jt
> .... The height above the blade would not matter over-all as the stock passes below it anyway.
Perhaps I didn't phrase the question clearly ....
In viewing the design and setup of rivving knives on a few web sites of Euro saws it seems they're consistently set a few mm *below* the top of the blade. This, I would imagine, is to allow for grooving/dado operations. In our case since the mechanism and geometry of the trunnions operates on an arc instead of straight up and down that would be a complex arrangement to maintain at different blade heights. So if we give up the idea that the knife will be below the top of the blade and forego the groove/dado operations, is there any reason why the rivving knife couldn't be *above* the top of the blade at any given blade height?
Mounting anything to the trunnion of my Unisaw would require drilling and tapping some holes in it. Which wouldn no doubt, void any warranty. I'm somewhat loathe to use any kind of clamping arrangement since clamps are notorious for coming loose. This would *not* make for a good day in the shop!
Still pondering the situation....
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
Sorry to be so long getting back to you. I have been busy in the shop an am taking a break to-nite. I did get to look at the Unisaw yesterday. Saw how their splitter works, etc.
Yes, a real rivving knife sits slightly below the top of blade. Keep in mine that a small portion of the top teeth will be above the stock. The rivving knife goes up to where the arc of the rear rising teeth start their turn forward. That's where the main danger zone is. The rear rising teeth going up. The rivving knife only keeps the stock spread as to not pinch. The crown gaurd is what would stop an up-kick from the rear risers. It extends out over the blade. I designed mine to go forward to where the teeth start their downward turn. I added an Lexan extention on the front nose to cover the front teeth. I made it to slide on an off the front of the wooden crown gaurd. The crown sits about 1/16" above the top of blade as I show about 3/4 of the center blade tooth above the stock. Not much way to get a hand or finger in the blade..
Now, to answer your question. Yes, you can in the scenario you suggested put the splitter over the blade. If you don't want to drill a second threaded hole in the forward mount, here's what I would suggest. Use the stock splitter as is. That gives you a splitter that does the same as a rivving knife, spread the stock beyond the back of the blade. Build a crown gaurd that attaches to the splitter that extends beyond the front of the current splitter. Cut two vertical slots in the front portion of the current splitter that T nuts and bolts through. the bolt would be tightened by a T handle on one side to the crown gaurd to lock it to the splitter. To change the height of the crown to the blade you loosen the handles and slide the crown up and down vertically on the splitter. On non-through cuts and dadoes and angle cuts remove the splitter and crown from the bolt in the throat and on the back of saw. If you haven't seen the pics I posted, please do. This is hard to explain without seeing. If I have too, I will call you on the phone and we'll discuss it.
sarge..jt
Right on, Sarge.
Thanks for the pics. Not to busy with the table saw at the present to give it as much thought as it deserves .... too much raw (green) wood lying around that has to be roughed out to season. But I'll definitely put some effort into building a better mouse trap! (grin)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Looking good Sarge,
From your post ,I think we're on the same page.
I need to locate a thin kerf splitter for a unisaw so anyone with info, please let me know.
BTW,Rockwell R and D must have gone done this road, unless they're completely braindead.
If I was R and D, I'd be scouring threads like these for ideas.
Rather than reinvent the wheel, does anyone know how we might access this info(legally).
The future's so bright,I gotta wear shades.
great thread,
silver
silver
I wonder how tall the aftermarket splitter is and how it attaches. I had my BIL cut my rivving knifes from old saw blades. I tried to make the initial cut andiis that steel hard! He ground the one down to 3/32" for the TK. A machine shop would have to do it.
I wonder if a 2nd hole would have to be tapped in the forward mount. I know how to design a splitter if that had the extra threaded hole. My drawback is I don't have the saw to work with. I have to go about 13 miles to see it.
Yes, a crown is feasible with the Unisaw even with the stock splitter. The pawls and Lexan would have to come off. I imagine it has come off in most cases anyway. Ha.... I looked at the Delta contractor. Whew, the way they have it attached it is a danger as even the splitter could easily go out of line with the blade. You would be better off by far taking it off than leaving it on.
Still considering as I am also trying for a sliding table for my mortiser and got several wood projects at the same time. The only good news is I'm so busy I don't have time to get in trouble. My wife likes that..he..he..
Keep me posted any progress your side of the border..
sarge..jt
Sarge -
I saw (and bought) something at the WW show today that kinda obviates my obsession with building a rivving knife for my Unisaw.
You're probably familiar with those magnetic finger board devices made by Grip-Tite? They've added a new twist to the device that works to hold both the infeed and outfeed ends of the rip piece against the fence. There's a little roller on that's mounted at a slight angle and holds the work piece both down against the table and against the fence. The Grip-tites need to be applied to the side of the fence rather than like an ordinary feather board that's fastened or clamped to the saw table. Thus you need to make a metal "skin" for the working side of your fence or make one for the magnets to glom onto.
They really do work, at least they worked for the guy demonstrating them. The added plus is you use two of them, one ahead of the blade the other behind the cut. The forward one serves as a guard to keep your hands from traveling too close to the blade. The work is pushed through the blade with a push stick, preferably the same thickness as the work piece and flat against the fence as well. A slightly different concept from the normal push stick application but appears far safer; you're *never* reaching over the blade.
I'm not overly excited about the idea of having a metal surface anywhere near where my expensive saw blades might reach but the options are limited.
There seems to be no kickback whatsoever. This guy took a normal every day 2x4, ran it into the saw about halfway, then torqued it away from the blade (with the saw running!) at least a half inch. Then by merely pushing against the end of the 2x4 it ran right back against the fence where it belonged.
Total cost? About 13 dollars per finger. Much less than admission to triage at the local hospital. Can't wait to get it installed!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
I caught wind of the fact you had come up with something at the show in the other thread late last nite. Was expecting your post. If you can, please take a picture and attach as I'm sure silver would be as interested as I. Others might be also.
Sounds like a solution of some sort and and thats a much better scenario than the existing set up. I kind of got the picture, but not completely. Slow thinker.ha...Once I mull over and do understand I usually don't forget a detail is the good news.
Hey, bring it on... The audience awaits.. BTW, glad you had a productive time at the show. Sounds like DOC might have to mix a little yellow with all that grey from your and Jamie's description of the DeWalt-ette or whatever you call them.......Grin<>
sarge..jt
Sarge -
I trust the attached images will illustrate this simple setup.
It consists of nothing more than a couple of the GripTite magnetic feather boards. They're not really feather boards per se since the "feather" consists of plastic tabs, but they work.
The 'enhancement' to the regular, original device is the addition of the little roller that rides on top of the work piece. This is mounted at a slight angle so the material is 'rolled' into the fence and held there.
Yes, you can pull the workpiece out from under the roller if you try hard enough but under normal use you wouldn't put that kind of force on the workpiece in that direction.
The difference in push stick "design" merely consists of another piece of material the same thickness (by any width available) that's used to simply push the material on through the blade. You don't have to push this 'push stick' all the way through since all you're after is to get the actual work piece clear of the back side of the blade. Once the cut's made, just leave the push stick where it is and turn off the saw. The push stick can be used for multiple cuts/widths to be sure but will eventually wear out like any other. But it's just waste anyway.
You can start a piece of wood or plywood into the blade at some distance from the fence and pushing it under these little wheels it will 'roll' into the fence. Not suggested as a means of starting a cut but just to illustrate that they work.
On the issue of safety - the two devices, one in front and one behind the blade serve to limit how far you advance your hands towards the blade. You're never closer than 6-8" to the blade. Pushing the workpiece through with another piece of waste stock means you're *never* over the blade, either.
No, I don't work for these guys and I have no potential of commissions on sales. I just think it's neat idea and want to pass it on.
Negatives? - yeah, there's always a down side.
You have to attach a sheet metal facing to the blade side of the fence. Sacrificial fence or no, I spent a lot of money to finally get some good blades for my saw. I'm not crazy about having that sheet metal on the table while the saw's running. (incidentally, the clamps in the photos, if they show, are just to hold the metal in place until I get it screwed to the fence (with the supplied screws).
You need to be sure that when you bring the device up to the metal face that the back end is down far enough to be able to use the cam action release lever. These magnets are *STRONG*. You'll play aych E double L getting them off without using the cam release.
The screw holes for the side tabs could be predrilled with just a smidgen bigger pilot hole in my opinion. Takes a lot of torque to get them driven all the way in.
The head for the screw that attaches the cam release lever has an odd design - not a true phillips that I can tell. Perhaps it's made that way to prevent the user from torquing the screw in too far and preventing the release lever from turning easily. But the pilot hole for this screw is on the smallish size, too, and the lack of good purchase by an ordinary phillips head screwdriver made it difficult to get the screw tight *enough*.
Not a rivving knife by any means, but .... I'm eager to give them a run for their money this week. Will post back after I've made a few dozen cuts or so.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
Got you.. Will wait to see comments on how it works. No doubt as to an improvement.
Note: Watch very carefully as you cut today. The stock is actually completely cut before you get all the way to the rear of blade. The cut is complete when the tail end is 4 or 5 teeth past the front down chopping teeth. Not necessay to move the push stick all the way past the blade. You'll see what I mean.
This is the theory I observed from working with Slainte on the Euro short fence. Just a thought.. Good and safe sawing..
sarge..jt
> .....The stock is actually completely cut before you get all the way to the rear of blade.
Yeh, but with the two magnetic hold-down things in the way, the easiest way is to just take a piece of waste material and push it all the way through.
One thing we're 'trained' not to do is let go of any pressure on the work piece until it's all the way through the blade, right? Well, with these things there doesn't seem to be all that much danger. Thus you can push the workpiece through the blade and out onto the outfeed table and not have to worry about getting the push piece through. Just turn off the saw and retract it or, (I'm guessing here) that since the push piece may not be in contact with the back rising teeth all that much you could merely pull it out while the saw's running. Or, (thinking clearer here) the push piece would be thinner than the rip dimension so there's no contact with the blade at all.
Caffiene's finaly taking effect....
Gotta go unload the truck so I have room to pick up the sander today.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
I have a short fence attached over my long fence. The rear of the short ends before blade center. The fence sits 1" away from the long fence. When the work-piece clears the last of the downward choppers the waste side is free and the good side is now free as there is a gap between where the short ends and the rest of the full is. The cut is over. Turn the saw off. I learned this from Slainte and built a sliding short to fit over my long.
I think it is safer as your hands don't get that close to the blade as you still have the push working well in front of the blade when the cut is complete. It was akward at first. After about 50 rips I got the feel. After 200 rips I was addicted. I only use the long fence now for big panels. I suppose it's not everybody's cup of tea. Adrian tried it a while back and didn't like it. I love it as the cut is over after the first third of the blade. Less chance of kick as the pieces are free, free, free at last. How's that for drama. he..he..he..
sarge..jt
Nice pics, Dennis. Mesa Vista oughta buy them from you -- they're way better than the ones on their web site.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dennis,
The Grip Tite devices look VERY interesting. Sorry if I missed something, but where did you get them?
R
Hi Rich -
I got the ones in the photo(s) at our recent ww show. I know Rockler sells them, whether the 'enhanced' version with the little rollers are available in the normal retail outlets, don't know. Haven't looked.
Try a web search on either griptite (grip-tite?) or Mesa Vista Design. They're located in Rio Rancho NM 804 Tulip Rd 87124. 505-892-0293.
I know they have a web site since Jamie (Forest_Girl) has mentioned it in other posts but I haven't looked for it.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I searched the archives on "Grip-Tite" and found this from Craig posted earlier this year. In light of the current discussion about these things, I thought it bore re-posting. Copied and pasted without original author's permission but I don't think he'll mind:
...........
*
Here's a scary tale.
I am working at my tablesaw (Powermatic 66) doing some light cutting on a small piece. I make my cut and
inspect the results. The saw is still running and I am to the left of center out of the line of the blade.
As I am inspecting my cut, there is this tremendous 'thunk' noise and I feel something hit the side of my face.
Immediately I shut the saw. I am surprised and a little scared as I wipe my hand across my face to see if there is
any red coming from anywhere. So far so good. My face is clean, although it feels as if I had just been slapped
hard.
I still don't know what happened as I look around. I can't even figure out what hit me or where it came from. I
proceed to look in the mirror just in case. Maybe I am hurt but I just cannot see it. The mirror checks out okay.
I continue to look around for what might have happened. In my search close to the tablesaw I discover pieces of
oak on the floor (I was not cutting oak, nor do I ever use it). I inspect my tablesaw blade. One carbide tooth has
been knocked off clean down to the gullet.
Finally, as my search continues, I discover what happened. My toolbox is at least 25 feet behind me and to my
left when standing at my tablesaw. On the top shelf I keep several CMT bits in their plastic cases. Five of these
cases are smashed into small shards of plastic. Next to them sits my Grip-Tite magnetic featherboard, its magnet
holding it tight to my metal toolbox. It is missing its handle and part of its back end. It wasn't stored there. It
ARRIVED there from my tablesaw.
I came to conclude that the featherboard was sitting atop my rip fence, where I sometimes kept it handy. The
top of the fence is metal and the magnet usually 'sticks' to it. But sometimes it sits there a bit cocked. Anyway,
what apparently happened was the featherboard fell into the blade while I was inspecting my work. Like a
missle projectile, it shot across the room into my toolbox, killing 5 CMT cases in the process.
I really don't know how it slipped into the blade. My saw does not vibrate at all, and the featherboard was not
precariously sitting on the fence. Fact of the matter is that it DID fall into the blade and I was lucky enough to
feel only a few of the wood splinters on my face. That was bad enough. Had I not been standing to the side of
the blade, that thing would have shot full force into my head and no doubt if not killed instantly, seriously hurt.
I am thankful for how this turned out, but the point is you can never be too careful. I am very safety conscious
especially with the stationary equipment, but it is just too easy to overlook some small detail which could end up
being very dangerous. If we all just stop and think about doing this type of work and the potential for danger,
we probably would never enter the shop.
I though it might be beneficial to post this particular incident, as it was for me, the type of issue that I would
have originally considered a safe condition only to find out the hard way it was not............
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
His must have been from back in the days when they made the body out of oak instead of plastic. This got my attention: "I make my cut and inspect the results. The saw is still running..." Why?
I have a self-imposed rule about my tablesaw: Nothing from the fence past the blade to the edge except the wood I'm cutting. On the opposite side of the fence, little cut-offs, a pencil maybe, but nothin' else.
Sure glad he wasn't hurt!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dennis
Just took my two Grip-Tites off the side of the TS. Stored in a drawer under-neath the chop saw extentions. Will not use them again till we find out if it is not a good idea to leave attached to metal. Ha... If someone has a clue out there, don't be bashful about chiming in.
What a story that was! I don't scare easy, but that is scary. I would check the GP's before I used them to be sure the magnet is still strong. From what I've seen, I don't see how they got to that sawblade if they were properly attached to the metal on top of the fence.? I can't even slide them. I have to use the little domahickie release in the rear to get them loose. When you activate it they pop up.
Do you suppose the GP was hanging over the edge of the fence and nah.... he was finished with the cut. I would have already had the saw shut down. Still, that is a mystery. Maybe someone has some similar incident that might be a clue, cause I don't even have a theory on that one..
sarge..jt
One thing to watch with the GripTites (when you're using them on the table) is that there isn't a bunch of sawdust on the table where you set 'em down. They might feel locked on, but the sawdust will interfere with the strength of their grip, turn 'em into GripLooses.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
Thanks. I have never noticed that. Will test this week-end to see for myself. I mainly use the GP's on the band saw. I use the little flippey's for a one point contact fence when I free-hand rips with the BS. Just something I tried one day and got a good feel for. It gives me one steady point to guide off of, but still allows the stock to float with my direction.
I don't use the GP's on the TS at all as I have a junk-saw with a machined aluminum top. Us poor folks can't afford the cast iron. Ha... I got the crown gaurd, an adustable home-made feather that attaches to the slot on my slider on the left of blade and clamped feathers on the fence on right. If I'm ripping really long stock add a bridge gaurd on the extention behind the saw on the friction table. Pretty much got the safety on the TS covered.
After the story Dennis and silver posted, I might add a flak jacket and steel pot just for good measure. Grin<>
Have a good evening, has the monsoon thing hit the NW yet?
sarge..jt
We haven't had any rain to mention this whole fall. Really dry, and quite cold, these days. Got down to 12 in Eastern WA Wed. nite, down around 19 or so I think in southern Puget Sound. Humidity in my shop dropped 15 points when the cold/dry front came in!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
12°? Wow. Well, eastern Japan is a long shot from eastern Washington, but maybe the El Niño is having an effect on us all; we had our first frost in Fujino on October 30, two days earlier than I've ever measured (in 9 years); should make for a beautiful fall. Today is certainly gorgeous; clear, crisp, only a few wispy clouds.
View from my window:
View Image
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
What a gorgeous scene! Yep, clear and blue here too. Thanks for the pic! Our dry weather is definitely an El Nino phenom.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Norm -
I'm really sorry to see that you have such a depressing view from your front window. (g)
What a pleasant and serene setting in which to work.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Norm
Very depressing scene, very depressing indeed. Well, for us that are not there anyway. Ha... Alright, what's in the garden?
sarge..jt
Jamie
We haven't even had the first frost yet. Been that way for two or three years. Around 60* F today and going down to 38* to-nite. The coldest yet. Leaves haven't made a full color but some starting to drop.?? Strange for several years now. Very mild winters, altogether.
Perhaps we should set up a tent and commune in Norm's yard.. Ha... I'm sure he wouldn't mind. Grin<>
sarge..jt
Yeah, I wish all that were my yard. Most of it is various neighbors' places. As for what they're growing, looks like bean poles in the background, green onions in the foreground, probably cabbage and daikon in the middle, eggplant, you name it. Our property is too small to grow much, but the neighbors keep us in potatoes and daikon (Chinese radish) most of the summer.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm
You may not have much property, but you sure got a great view of someone's. The other good news is you don't have to maintain it and still get to enjoy the view.
Have a good evening or morning as it is late EST..
sarge..jt
Good Evening All,
A personal incident from my Woodworking General class November 29,2002: THE #### HITS THE FAN.
In the middle of a class of keen adult woodworkers, I asked my able assistant,Ron McGiver, to help a student set -up for edge grooving 3/4" pine. He and the student are intently setting up and ,as I walk by, Ron looks up and mentions that they have a problem with a clamp they're using to hold a fingerboard on the left side of the blade to pressure stock tight to the fence. I bend over to inspect the clamp, and in that proverbial nanosecond: Ron loosens the clamp,the fingerboard hits the running blade (which I can't hear because the suction fan is on and making a racket)the fingerboard becomes airborne and hits me flat across the chest.
They shut the saw off and anxiously ask if I am OK. I had deliberately kept my face out of the fast lane which is what saved my #### in this situation.
One week earlier, a student was ripping narrow stock on the tablesaw. I rarely talk to any one when the saw is running but, from experience I have learned to trust my gut feelings, so I asked her to move her hips slightly to the left out of the fast lane. She used a pushstick to push the stock but stopped before it was clear of the blade and lifted the pushstick off the stock. In a nanosecond,the stock flew backwards through the fast line,missing her because she had moved clear of the lane.
Incidents like these are way too close for comfort and force me to rethink my assumptions.I would have turned the saw off before adjusting the clamp. I won't have lifted the push stick off the stock. The onus is on me to communicate to my students the absolute dedication that must be made to the TABLE SAW RULES. I plan to slow my classes down and get the safety message across.
Take the time to work safely: use uncommon sense:always keep the fast lane open:shut the goddamn blade off when you finish a cut;never be tempted to reach for an off-cut. Most accidents are the result of a lapse of uncommon sense. It is a challenge to get this message across to my students.
So many students in my ww classes were relating table saw accidents they had at home that I felt compelled to offer a "Know Your Table Saw"course, which starts next week. This is a very timely thread for me and I am reading the info on the Griptites with great interest.
Lee Valley sells earth magnets which hold 30#each and I am considering adding these to conventional fingerboards for extra holding power. If you have an opinion on this,please jump in.
The grip tites look promising but scary if ever airborne in the hands of students( I have to consider the possibilitities).They are also pricey and in US dollars and I have a very limited budget.
Thanks to all for a fascinating discusion!
silver
Click here for the products page at Mesa Vista. Woodcraft also sells the GripTite, but I don't know if they have the full set with the rollers or not.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/29/2002 10:39:39 PM ET by forest_girl
Rich
I have used Grip-Tites for a while. I get them from Highland Hardware here. Seen them several other places also. I don't have the little thingamajiggies (spring-loaded rollers). First I've seen of them. If you locate just that feature, please post as I wouldn't mind putting them on the current Grip-Tites I have. I may call them in Rio Rancho to see if they can be adapted to the older Grip-Tites and do they sell separately.
Let you know if I find out anything positive.
sarge..jt
Dennis, Jamie, Sarge,
Thanks guys.
R
Hi Sarge. Mesa Vista sells the rollers separately, as I asked about them at the show. How many of the Grip Tites do you have? I had only one, so I bought the "upgrade kit" which includes rollers for 2 GT's, 1 new GT, the splitter pin and button, the metal fence attachment and a video for $99.
Just found the flyer from the show -- roller guides are $14.95 each. I posted their web address up top somewhere, twice.
BTW: There's an efficient and safe way to set the featherboards when they're mounted on the fence -- a certain angle and all that.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
> ....BTW: There's an efficient and safe way to set the featherboards when they're mounted on the fence -- a certain angle and all that.
Whatever it is, once you're within an inch of the fence, you'd better be there. The thing's gonna jump on the fence whether or not you're ready!! (grin)
I think I'll buy an extra one to carry in the truck as a tow strap hook. Just latch it on the bumber of one of those tin can imports and out she comes! (grin)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Just make sure your pinky isn't caught between the fence and the GT. Ouch!! Yep, they're strong alright. I used one as a "fence" on my drill press when I was making my gold-plated lumber rack.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Jamie
Thanks for the foot work. Saved me some phone calls. I'm sure my local ( Highland Hardware probaly has them if they're new). Will check and if not, they can get.
You guys and gals watch those Grip-Tite magnets. My first one was given as a Xmas present by my son. He put it in the shop on Xmas eve not knowing better. I went down on Xmas morning and the TS, BS, Drill press and sander were attached. I thought some one had stole all my tools and replaced with one of those Combo Machines. Had to detach and bolt everything down with concrete anchors. Yep, pretty power-ful magnets on those critters. he..he..he..
sarge..jt
We're getting pretty far afield from the topic, Sarge, but thought I'd ask in case anyone following this thread would have an opinion - yourself included.
Magnets usually retain their strength better if they have a "keeper". I wonder if the magnets on these little Grip-Tite devices are better kept attached to the machine or some other metal thing or if they should be detached and put in a drawer. Or perhaps separate drawers since you'd probably not get them apart if they stuck to each other.
Funny story about "rare earth" magnets - not sure if that's what Grip-Tite uses or not. These rare earth type magnets are used a lot in security sensing systems in doors to activate locking mechanisms. The security guy on one of the projects I worked on told me about a friend of his that bought a really large rare earth magnet and put it in the trunk of his car. It took two guys and a crowbar to get it loose! You don't want to be walking next to anything metal with one of those in your pocket!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
Never thought of it. I keep them attached to the side of something metal, but only cause I don't have trouble finding them when I need them. They are not going anywhere when you do attach. Ha...
Hopefully, someone can answer that question as I am not qualified.. Would like to know, though..
sarge..jt
Guess if they're not falling off yet, leaving them there must not be doing them any harm.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Very interesting...do they have a website?
I can't picture the push stick you're talking about...I want to make some new ones for the college and have a design that I have continually tried to improve over the past 15 years.
I'll try to post a picture ASAP...in the meantime as a tangent to this thread...
Could we share our best push stick designs? I'm intrigued by Sarge's push stick that uses sword style guards. Great idea but I wonder if the students would like it.
Sarge do you find it at all awkward?
For narrow rips(under 6"),I now tell the students to move the overhead guard OUT of their way so they don't get jammed up in there.
To mazimize our safety margin, the onus is on me to make the safest and most effective push stick that I am capable of.
thanks for your ideas,
silver
silver
Nope, not akward at all. It's a standard thin push-shoe. I cut a slot horizonal just below the handle and inserted a 4" x 6" Lexan plate. Two inches sits to the right of handle, 4 inches to the left over the blade. I can see the blade on close rips, but I feel 100% more comfortable with that crown gaurd off on 3/4" or narrower rips. It gives me something that will deflect if my hand slipped or in some way headed to the blade.
I know the picture is not good, but look carefully. It's very simple and I do use it on 3/4" rips without the crown mounted to the rivving knife. Let me know if you cannot see it clearly as it is clear Lexan. Heck, I'll make you one in about 15 minutes and send it to you. Then you can see for yourself. Try it-you might like it!! ha..ha..
sarge..jt
I just reread your post, Sarge. 100% more comfortable...is a very high safety margin. I am always trying to increase the Margin of Safety for myself and my students.
It is hard to see. I'll take you up on your offer to make me one and send it if you don't mind. I'd love to have it as an option for the students to try.
I'm also starting a 4 week course on Nov. 6 called "Know Your Tablesaw" which will be every thing I've learned in 30 years on the saw so it would be extremely timely. I'm also planning to offer the students an option in that course to make a low tech /high performance sled for a tablesaw for crosscutting.
I will trade ya for lignum vitae and/or 3/4"x24" HPDE slides and plans for a table saw sled and/or cashola...
Thanks for the inspiration
silver
silver
I'm on it. The shoe cost about $7 unless you get the Bosch at $9. The name on the side cost $2 extra. ha.... No need for the trade or cash. I will consider it as a charitable contribution to possibly saving someones finger. E-mail your school address and it will be on the way in about a week as I have a ton of things in the shop to finish.
BTW, there should not be an import tax for a gift. Is there any way I can note gift on the package to eliminate hassle with Canadian customs. I run into this every day at work. I will send USPS so it will flow easier from the US Post Office to the Canadian system. That's the cheap way to ride.
Remember, I stated I feel 100% more comfortable with it on a rip under 3/4" and have to remove the crown. This is true. But I did not state that it is 100% safe. As you know when that saw gets the juice, you better have 100% of your concentration didicated to the task you are preforming. If not the results could be coming up 10% or more short on fingers.
Have a great day sawman..
sarge..jt
silver
I started to do the shoe last nite late. Forgot something that is very important. My fence is 3" tall and with 1/2" stock the shoe hand gaurd clears the top.
Measure you Unisaw fence. Exactly how tall is it and do you ever rip stock under 1/2" thick. I need to know ASAP. If the fence is taller than 3", I will have to build a custom shoe of wood that is a little taller to accomodate the Lexan shield.
The sooner you get the info back, the sooner I can get to it. I thought that would get you moving. Ha......
sarge..jt
Silver -
Refer to my post to Sarge with the images of the GripTite thingies. The push stick concept for use with these things isn't really a push stick but more just another piece of stock the same thickness off the table as the work piece. It's used to push the stock all the way through the blade and only has to be long enough to reach from the front of the saw to the back of the blade.
The rest of the story is contained in the other post.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis
The light bulb went on. Are you talking about Board Buddies. Are the little wheel yellow. The one for the TS by them is yellow. Different color for router, etc.
If that's it they are good. A little expensive for an old poor boy, but worth it from a safety standpoint.
I'll wait and see instead of speculate. Ha.. Hope you enjoy and they prove to be a benefit. I have never seen the board buddies at work and would like to know what you think of wahtever you've got there.
G'day to you and yours..
sarge..jt
Hi Sarge, I'm leaping in here. Nope, they're not board buddies. Completely different animal. I'll go off and find their web site and come back and post. I bought a Grip Tite a couple of months ago, love it, and bought the upgrade yesterday at the show. Be back in a minute.
OK, I'm back. Actually, their web site doesn't show the product very well. The last picture on the page reflects the type of demo they were doing yesterday. He was ripping pieces off of 1x stock, the pieces being ripped were less that 1/8" thick, and they were going nowhere but in the right direction. The yellow blocks that are on the fence are held by extremely strong bar magnets, and there is a phenolic fin and a roller that holds the stock down and against the fence.
I use a single Grip-Tite (without the roller) on my saw and I've used it on my jointer. It works great and is extremely quick to set up. They've made improvements over the original model, but putting a release lever on the back which makes it easy to remove the block from the metal surface, and by using plastic for the body instead of wood (the wood's movement in the original model was causing the magnets to move also).
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/27/2002 3:02:06 PM ET by forest_girl
Jamie
Just up on a short break from shop. Thanks for the info. Any time you got info that is helpful, jump in the pool. I want all the input that is available. BTW, sounds as if the show was enjoyed by all.
This sounds extremely interesting and I want to hear about it. I'm sure silver does to if you read his post as to giving the Know Your T/S class next month. Also, thanks on the Grip-Tite info. I have seen them but never used. I usually make my own feathers, hold-downs, etc. Either I'm too cheap to buy or too poor. Not sure which. Actually, I love to tinker and come up with creative designs.
If you come up with a web or how I can contact the company for cat or lit, post it.
Have a good evening and re-coup from the show..
sarge..jt
>"I'm not overly excited about the idea of having a metal surface anywhere near where my expensive saw blades might reach but the options are limited."
The demo I watched on Saturday, he commented on this in regard to using them with a dado blade. He mounts the metal plate on a sacrificial board, mounting the metal plate up high on the board, so the teeth of the blade can score the sacrificial board, but the plate is above the height of the blade and so can still hold the Grip Tites. Seems like we could just get another piece of flat metal somewhere and do the same thing.
I didn't even realize until the 2nd demo I watched that they include a little splitting pin in the outfit. Nice touch.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dennis
The sacrificial fence Jamie mentioned is in a tip in the new FWW. I built one (a short fence as inspired by Slainte) that slips over my current fence. I have a T-nut slot in top of stock fence and I can slide the short fence forward and rearward to adjust for thickness of wood.
If I need the entire fence for wide panel ripping, I just unscrew the two T knobs on top and remove. Sure you can rig something without too much trouble. Good luck and keep us informed as too how it's working.
sarge..jt
Of course the search engine corrected the spelling when I went to look it up.
I wasn't trying to say you misrepresented it as a riving knife. Since the thread was about riving knives vrs splitters, I wanted all to know which of the two the unit was. I'm sorry if that was implied.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
That's cool...I don't know how to spell ryving, anyhow.
As some others have pointed out on other threads, it may be difficult/impossible to retrofit a conventional contractor/cabinet saw with a riving knife like the one I showed in my message because of the way the arbor assembly is mounted. As the blade rises/falls, it simultaneously tilts moves forward/back since it's hinged at one end on its trunion. This would cause any riving knife attached to the trunion to likewise tilt forward/back. It might be doable/acceptable on some saws.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
See what you mean, Norm. Uncovered my Unisaw this evening to explore the trunnion setup. It would take some kind of engineering to accomplish such a thing.
Just out of interest I did what I should have done in the first place and explored a few web sites for Euro-designed saws. One site covered the installation of the riving knife with a cautionary note that this style of knife was not to be used in the US due to safety regulations!! Honest!!!.
Go figger.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
It would take some kind of engineering to accomplish such a thing.
Oh, come on. Where has good old Yankee tinkering gone? A properly designed set of planetary gears and an epicycloid pinion should fix 'er right up.
Damn good thread! And good question...what is a riving knife? I thought it was something for cutting up moose.
Sarge...glad to see this is still alive!
Suggestion: Take a stock Unisaw splitter...( I looked all over for mine the other day, but I threw it out with the rest of the guard 10 years ago).
Now Sarge, take your prototype and hold over this. Now create a sliding and locking
vertical slotted arm that is adjustable with a huge wingnut and you're there.
It would be cool if someone has design software and we are able to design it as a group effort. It's gotten to the point where I'm am telling my students to move the overhead guard OUT of the way over the fence for narrow rips because I am convinced this is the safest way to go right now. But I would order 4 "Euro Sawsafes" tomorrow if I could.
cheers,
silver
Don -
I didn't say it couldn't be done (grin). I don't like complex things that can get out of adjustment or require three hands to set up is all. The wing nut idea Silver had would be OK but if I understand what's being suggested, you'd have to take the insert out each time the blade ht. was changed to adjust the ht. of the rivving knife. That's even less convenient that the stock Uni splitter.
Some sort of parallel arm/spring thingie/cam actuated lever retraction gear reduction mechanism is probably the answer.
With respect to the design software approach, that's what I kinda do for a non-living. Gotta dig out the parts manual for the saw and get an idea of how the trunnion's designed and rough dimensions to see if I can model the thing up.
You *had* to go and throw down the gauntlent, didn't you!! (haha)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennnis-
I was sort of kidding, but I don't think it's a simple design problem. The Unisaw-style blade-raising mechanism puts the arbor on an arc. A proper riving knife must remain in the same height relation to the blade throughout its elevation range, but if a knife is simply attached to the trunion, it will follow a different arc.
I agree, Some sort of parallel arm/spring thingie/cam actuated lever retraction gear reduction mechanism is probably the answer.
Send pictures when you've licked the problem.
Dennis
I am also looking at the possibility of a crown gaurd for the Unisaw. Another poster I have conversed with on e-mail has ask me to see if I can come up with one for his Unisaw in exchange for lignumvitae. Hopefully will be able to go tomorrow to look closely at the saw. I will also consider the possibility of a rivving knife. Haven't seen the saw up close and don't know what's under that throat plate.
If I come up with anything will e-mail. If you have any ideas, I would appreciate the same. Just something on the side as I'm very busy with projects in the shop now..
sarge..jt
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