Hi all! Great network here. Great forum. This is my first post. My cousin and I have just set us up a cabinet shop in a 25X30 workshop. We’ve also cleared out a bedroom in an old vacant house next to the workshop for our paint spray booth. The bedroom is a 12×12 with an 8’ceiling. One 2-8 door from the kitchen and another going outside. Both windows are boarded shut. We’ve got electricity, but no water or ventilation. Now, I’m a trim carpenter and wanna be cabinet maker and neither of us have much experience spray finishing furniture or cabinets. What I’m looking for here is some advice on setting up a booth using what I just described. We’ll be using an HVLP sprayer primarily and an airless occasionally. So, comments on ventilation and equipment setup are what I’m looking for. Thank you all very much for being out there. DanEmm
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I just got two books from Taunton Press, "Spray Finishing" by Charron and "Spray Finishing and Other Techniques". I highly recommend them, especially the first for setting up a system. Charron covers all aspects and all the options. It is a couple of years old, so there may be some new stuff on the market, but the book does cover all the major brands.
Thanks Bryan, I'll check them out. I did use our Apollo HVLP the other night and was really pleased with the outcome. Did a waterbourne sanding sealer on the interior of a pantry we put together for a kitchen remodel. turned out OK. Like I said, we're just starting out, but I hope that sooner or later (hopefully sooner) we'll be doing lots and lots of cabinets, thus lots and lots of spraying. I feel like experience is going to be my best teacher no matter how much I research. Have any experience with Apollo HVLP spray systems?
Dan
I took an old squirrel cage and motor from an old central air unit. I made my own enclosure for it according to the filter size I would be using. I use a 25" x 25" x 1" filter. This filter goes over the intake of my unit which is actually the pre exhaust end. This keeps over spray from building up on your fan. The actual exhaust opening will be in a window or another opening of your choice. I put my unit in the rafters of my work shop with a opening in the gable behind the vent. Now that the unit is set, another opening is needed for the inflow of air. You have to decide on clean room or not. If clean room is your option use several filters in combination to cover a window opening or other opening to receive the incoming air. (The bigger the better) You will be surprised at how much air the unit pulls. If I don't open a window when I run my unit it bows my double doors to pull in air and I hear a loud whistle. I hope this info helps you in your endeavor.
BMW50
Thanks, In fact, I have an old squirrel cage blower from an AC unit that's been sitting right in front of the shop for years (this is my cousin's place). If it's still good or I can make it good I'm sure it will work. Now let me ask you this. I salvaged a motor the other day from a small table top band saw. think that would turn the cage fast enough to move enough air, or should I spring for a fan motor?
Dan
Negative on the saw motor, I'd get a motor with enough amps, hp's, and RPM's to run your exhaust fan. It may cost a little more up front to go with a new motor but piece of mind is priceless.
GO FOR IT
BMW50
Thanks for the information. These past few months have been a real learning experience for me and cousin bill setting up this cabinet shop. We learn a little bit every day. And most importantly, we're having a blast doing it. I actually sprayed a few things in my booth the other day. It's giong to work ok for the small stuff, but I have a 50X82" pantry unit that's going to be sprayed where she sits. No way I'm going to drag that thing through the kitchen and into that bedroom. I'm too old and it's too big
Dan
Since you are "hanging a shingle" be careful if you are spraying solvent lacquer. A fan in the window isn't good enough for local authorities about 99 percent of the time.And there is the risk of flash fire but I have never heard an actual case of this happening with a box fan but I still wouldn't spray solvent around a source of ignition.I'm spraying water lac and use Zinser Sealcoat first two coats. Really helps keep the fuzzing down on oak and helps give some tone.Hate solvent lac for many reasons but its hard to beat the speed and ease.
adastra, how could one hate solvent lacs. they are far more superior than water based finishes. please explain why you dont like solv lacs. are you a hobbyist or do you do this for a living?
-Lou
Yup, do it for a living and hate solvent finishes.Its because of the VOC's and all the extra precautions necessary as well as the extra regulations you get to deal with if the local authorities choose to enforce. And then there is the clean up since I'm using a gravity HVLP. Plus, I hate the smell. (I do wear a respirator while spraying)I've sprayed enough solvent lac on kitchens to have a healthy hatred of it and do anything I can to avoid using it.But solvent is fast, and easy if the environment is stable. So it takes more planning to try to stay reasonably efficient with a water based schedule. I can say that the dry times of the Target stuff I use is pretty impressive. Not as fast, but if we're talking a run of cabinets I'll be ready for the next coat by the time I'm through spraying all the parts so I guess its fast enough. And it lays down great.But I guess you have to hate solvent lac to be motivated enough to switch.
ada, How does this stuff hold up to water marks,general wear and tear, call backs,and of course they dreaded bar top finish. I'm all about the health issue too. I would hate to have callbacks.
Thanx for you coments. Lou
Well, I would point you to the Target Coatings site as they have a pretty wide range of products so you can decide which is best for your application. If it were commercial use I would likely go with one of their other formulations that can have a crosslinker added.I've used the USL lacquer and its been for residential use and have had no callbacks or complaints. Seems to resist stains as well as pre-cat and cleans the same. But its only been two years since the switch so can't say its a long history. Target claims 100 percent burn-in for the USL and that is one of the things I always like about solvent lac. Repairs were fairly easy I thought because of that burn-in and if I can get similar results with my water lac then all the better. But I've never had to test it.I would add that I was pretty unimpressed with the USL at first because of the grain raising. LOTS more sanding needed (which is too much lost time) than with solvent until I switched to shellac sealer first two coats. Locks the grain pretty good and I don't mind the alcohol fumes nearly as much as lac thinner. They don't seem to hang around as long.As far as bar tops go I am not sure I would trust a water based product just yet, but I really haven't looked into as I've never gotten a bartop job. I don't do countertops if I can help it. I can only do laminate and really hate working with that stuff, too. Sounds like a theme? Yup, if I can get to the point where I never do another cabinet job I would be a happy man. With any luck, I've already done my last one but in this part of the country furniture jobs are slim pickins.
Danemm, I have a 1500 sqft shop and have been in your shoes 10 yrs ago. My advice is to not go crazy on expensive spray equipment. I would start using a gravity feed hvlp spray gun (works off air hose) I purchased my gun at lowes (cambel hausfield) It works great. I was talked into buying a $500. gun at a trade show. Used it 5-6 times and forgot about it. hated it
Use mlcamble lacquers, they are easy to use and are very forgiving and are the highest quality. I can give you my ph # at the shop. I can tell how to set it up for as cheap as possible and have it work perfectly.
I wish I would have seeked help in the begining. I'd be happy to help you
-Lou LMC Custom Millwork
Edited 3/29/2006 4:18 am ET by loucarabasi
Lou, Too late on going crazy. We bought an Apollo 1000 HVLP spray system from McFeely's. After my first time using it, i thought that it didn't do any better than my cmopressor and $50 gun from Home Depot. Well, a little better, but not $1,000 better. Oh well, We'e got it and we're going to use it. I appreciate you giving me your number. I'll give you a call this week. Thanks
Dan
Beet
I would also recommend the Taunton Press Spray Finishing books - pay particular attention to the articles on mid-range HVLP systems and water based finishes. They changed my whole way of doing finished. I've been in business for 18 years, with the past 5 as a cabinetmaker. We have always built very fine cabinetry, but our finishes usually scored a B to B- with a lot of work. Eventually we settled on a spray laquer finish, but without a spray booth we really were pushing our luck but couldn't deal with the DEP regulations. The finish was maybe a B+ but still a huge pain in the #### to apply.
Based on the Fine Woodworking articles we purchased a Wagner 3-Stage HVLP for about $400 or so. It got the top rating and is the only one I believe that came with a non-bleeder gun. The gun is actually the same sold with their 4-stage $1000 system.
Using this system we started using Compliant Spray Systems Enduro Polyurethane Finishes - usually two coats of their sanding sealer and two coats of a semi-gloss poly give you a A+ finish with a minimal of work, non-flamiblitiy, and a fairly pleasant smell. The dry time per coat is less than 20 minutes - an awesome product - FW also gave this product a very good review. We still use oil-based stains under without problems. Two important things with using this finish - thin with about 10% water and you need to purchase a #4 tip and needle for the spray gun.
If you want a sprayed paint finish - we use Insulex Cabinet Coats paints - 3 parts paint, 1 part water, and 1 part Floatrol - prime with a shellac based primer, sand, two coats of paint and you'll have an absolutely flawless finish.
Good luck
Hainesport NJ ? (water based finishes Blow)
Yes, Hainesport, NJ. Nice message by the way. I'm not sure what your aversion is to water based finishes other than maybe you went to Home Depot and bought a Minwax product. If you really want to do some research go to the Target or Compliant Spray Systems website - or better yet go to the issue of FW that tested these products among others, giving them both very positive reviews as to durability and ease of application. I run into a lot of fellow woodworkers that dismiss water bourne finishes off hand, usually with scientific statement like yours - "water finishes blow". Funny thing is that talking with these same fellows you get a feeling their brains have absorbed a bit too many lacquer fumes. I'd willingly put up with a little longer dry times and grain raising for a few more years on this earth. I mean anyone that has worked any length of time with lacquers has to know how nasty they are. I too have a 1500 square foot shop and there is no possible way for me to fit my equipment and a proper spray booth. I'm not sure how you do it in yours and meet all the New Jersey DEP requirements and local Fire Codes. I have to vacuum down the shop, tarp up everything and do my finishing. It's a pain but at least with the water based finishes I don't have to worry about blowing the roof off and when I'm done the fairly pleasant odor lasts for an hour or two. With lacquers my shop reeked for days after. Finally, concerning bar finishes - Have you really finished bar tops with lacquers??? We do quite a few bars and never would think of this type of finish unless I guess someone could guarantee that everyone would use coasters. We use 8 or so coats of a spar varnish for all bar tops, sometimes we use a pourable epoxy between the bar rail and the glass rail. I hope you would someday take a look into water finishes and not dismiss them off hand and be sure until then to keep your fire extinguisher handy.
Ok Mr Hainsport, Maybe I'll have to try your stuff out! Even better; stop by your shop (I'm right around the corner) I Have twin boys on the way and maybe I'm startin to worry about livin longer. I hope your right, You know how it is, You dont want to change becouse you own system has been working fine. I do have access outside the shop to do my finishing and they do comform to all the laws but it is a pain in the neck to move my pieces around. I'd like to stop by your shop.
-Lou
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