Please excuse me for being all over the place with the same problem.
I reached an agreement over six months ago with a professional finisher to finish an 18th Century Pennsylvania Secretary. It took over three months to get him to pick it up, and now he has had it at his place for over three months. All the while, the solid walnut(except for crotch veneer over 11 ply for the writing surface) is exposed to the extreme changing of temperature and humidity we have in the south Mississippi area. I am ready to pick it up as early as yesterday.
It looks like I am going to be forced to try to finish the piece myself. I have a 5hp oil lubricated compressor with a 20 gallon tank. The compressor has been used for air guns and blowing. It has 2 pressure valves. One is the tank pressure and the other is ??? I have considered a turbine HVLP, but from reading past threads am leaning to a conversion setup.
The proposed fee from a second professional finisher of $7,000 makes the cost of equipment seem like a very good investment. I would appreciate answers to the following:
1. Is my existing compressor adequate for operating a conversion HVLP and if not what do I need to purchase to upgrade it(valves and such).
2. What other spray equipment (brand and model) do I need to purchase.
3. Would I need to construct a “spray booth’
4. I have a dust collector system but do not have an ambient cleaner. Would one help in controling the dust while finishing?
Replies
your existing compressor should be more than adequate, just spend the money on some high quality filters and a new airline from the point of the filter to the gun. You can get a mini regulator that attaches to the gun itself and saves you the hassle of calculating pressure drop.
Check out a range of guns, but keep in mind that low $$ hvlp conversion guns are usually worth what you pay for them. A high quality gun will run $350-500 and it's worth it IMO because these guns have a level of predictability and range that takes some of the risks out of the equation.
A spray booth is nice, but not necessary. You can easily construct a simple spray booth with some plywood, a few furnace filters, and a fan. The point is that you just want a 3-sided booth that you are spraying into to control overspray (which really isn't that much with a good conversion gun... that's the whole point of hvlp, lower the pressure to increase the conversion rate). You absolutely do have to have a clean area where you can finish... not operating room clean, but clean enough to reliably spray without crap landing in your finish. A dust collector system won't do anything for you in a spray environment, even an air cleaner is of specious benefit in my opinion (although I do have one). A clean work area with minimal foot traffic while you are working, a temporary spray booth with filters and a fan to direct overspray, and the right safety equipment is all you need in terms of facilities. By safety equipment, I mean a good respirator and some nitrile disposable gloves.
finally, this piece sounds pretty valuable... are you sure you want to learn how to spray on something like this?
I reached an agreement over six months ago with a professional finisher to finish an 18th Century Pennsylvania Secretary. It took over three months to get him to pick it up, and now he has had it at his place for over three months. All the while, the solid walnut(except for crotch veneer over 11 ply for the writing surface) is exposed to the extreme changing of temperature and humidity we have in the south Mississippi area. I am ready to pick it up as early as yesterday.
I presume the secretary is a repro due to the reference to plywood on the drop leaf. I also presume you want a lacquer finish.
If it were actually an 18th Century piece, I would try to finish it as close to the original as possible, using shellac and whatever other resins were in use in the area at the time it was made. This is a pretty simple but time consuming process, and requires almost no equipment at all.
If it's a repro, it still doesn't sound like a good project to learn spray finishing on. I'm afraid that without considerable practice and perhaps some instruction, you will be unhappy with the results you are able to achieve.
$7,000 seems like an outrageous price simply to finish a secretary. Is there more to this story? Can you post a photo?
I can't imagine spending more than a couple of days on such a piece, at the most, for a top quality lacquer finish. For me, that would mean a maximum of about $1,000, and possibly a lot less, depending on the complexity of the job and your expectations.
If you want to finish it yourself, my first and strongest recommendation would be to finish it by padding on shellac made from flakes after using a dye stain to even out the color, if needed. It's easy, more durable than plain lacquer, pretty quick, and can produce a very beautiful finish. Jeff Jewett describes the process in his book "Hand Applied Finishes", and I would recommend it highly to you.
He also covers quite a number of alternatives, any of which would be more suitable for a beginner than trying to spray lacquer for the first time on a complicated piece.
(For those who would dispute shellac's durability, I work on a lot of antiques, and I see lots of 100 to 200 year old shellac finishes in good condition, while I rarely see a 50 year old lacquer finish in good condition. Modern lacquers are better, and I use them a lot, but I don't expect them to hold up for 100 years or more. Shellac is also very easy to repair or refurbish, and would be ideal for this application.)
Regarding spray guns, a Sharpe 998HVLP with pressurized cup would cost less than $250, and will give an excellent finish with your compressor. I hear very nice things about Porter Cable's gravity gun, but I don't know how much air it consumes. It sprays very well, and is very inexpensive. I think that for spraying lacquers it should work fine, but it would pay to check air consumption.
There are lots of more expensive rigs, and other inexpensive ones that use more air, but these two guns appear to fit your requirements. By all means, pick one up and try spraying some simple projects to develop your skills, but don't start with this secretary.
Spraying on open air, under cover, works well, such as in an open garage with cross ventilation. Outside under an awning works, too, as long as the bugs cooperate. don't even think about spraying indoors without a substantial exhaust system. That goes for waterbornes, too. The glycol ethers in waterbornes are bad for you, and most (not all) waterborne lacquers have the same health ratings as solvent lacquers.
Michael R
$7000 ???????
Geez -- for that kind of money, I think you could get any number of knotheads to drive down there and do the job for you.
But, seriously, I'm with Woodwiz on this one. Using a piece like that to cut your teeth on spray equipment would be way painful. I cut mine on architectual millwork -- which is about as simple a spraying project as you will find -- and even then, it took me a while to get the hang of it. Moreover, you're coming into the hottest and most humid part of the year in MS, and that makes spraying lacquer even more complicated. Without a lot of experience in controlling for all the variables, you could end up with a mess.
I also agree with Woodwiz that shellac would be the finish of choice here. I think it would be near sacreligious to glop polyurethane over this piece.
Buy the Jewitt book he mentions, study hard, and practice. If you are into this type of furniture, working with shellac is a skill well worth knowing. And it is much cheaper than buying a gun adequate to the task.
WOODWIZ: Would you recommend a quick shellac sealer coat of a 1 lb cut (to save the piece from the ravages of temp/humidity changes) while he does all this studying and practicing?
Would you recommend a quick shellac sealer coat of a 1 lb cut (to save the piece from the ravages of temp/humidity changes) while he does all this studying and practicing?
As long as the color was good to begin with, it certainly wouldn't hurt. Actually, the beautiful finishes on violins are done with colored varnish (oil or spirit), so a lot of the color could be adjusted during the finishing process. It's kind of difficult to keep the color even in the nooks and crannies, though, so I'd want the color to be as close as possible to the desired tone before adding any clear coat.
Padding on shellac is pretty easy, so the learning curve shouldn't be too long.
Geez -- for that kind of money, I think you could get any number of knotheads to drive down there and do the job for you.
I'm 800 miles from Hattiesburg, and if I had time, I would gladly drive down there and finish it on the spot for WAY less than half of $7000 -- Unless there's something not apparent here. (One day down, one day back, two days for the work plus one for good measure... $2500 max at my highest day rate. )
Michael R
Thanks all for your replies.
I only have one photo of the lower case minus the folddown. I have never tried attaching a photo to this forum but will attempt it.
Funny how it was mentioned about whether I was setting down. The finisher making the quote ask me if I was sitting down also. I think he was trying to see if I would run. My first impulse was to send him photos and let him give me a firm quote after actually seeing the secretary. After getting all materials in the envelope and putting 4 stamps, I decided that at that rate, i could buy a heck of a lot of top equipment. Having said all that, I am most reeluctant to cut my teeth on this piece of work.
The main reason I will attempt to attach the photo is that it does show the veneer used on the drawers. The folddown has 4 bookmatch crothc veneers front and back and is stunning. The walnut has a rich color which does not come through with this photo.
Didn't work. I clicked on "attach files" and used the window in every way I could but it still didn't attach.
Of all the things I have lost in my lifetime, I miss my mind the most.
No help here.
The photo attachment has an"OKB" tag, whereas most are .jpg's.
I think there is some simple way to covert what you have to a .jpg, but I don't myself know what it is.
Maybe someone else can make a suggestion.
Did you make this secretary yourself?
Thanks for the tip on attaching the pic. I made a change and will attach to this as a test.
Yes, I did make the secretary.
I give up on attaching this particular photo. I have a new computer and the operating system is EXP. I do not like it as I did the 98. All my pictures are in a "photo albumn" and I do not know why they are not attaching. If anyone has a solution to offer, I would appreciate it. I do not anticipate a great need to make attachments, but when I do I want that capability.
Just like a brush, spray equipment is only a tool. All it does it transport finish to the surface and the rest is up to you. It isn't the answer. Spray equipment is essential in production where the finish is another component. It bridges and hides flaws. Dye, sealer, stain, sealer, toner, multiple coats of finish. A nice plastic piece for a Howard Johnson's motel. For fine handmade pieces, the finish hides nothing and accentuates every pinhole. Preparation is 90% of the work.
Catalytic finishes and complicated modern chemistry. How much wear is this going to get? Not necessary. Think simple. Finishing is not hard. Preparing the surface is hard work.
Do you want the grain filled? Major decision. The hardest part of the process. Especially hard in carvings and moldings. An appropriate finish is either shellac or oil. If you do shellac and don't like it, easier to remove and you can do it over. You can make a heck of a lot of tries for $7000.
The secretary's gallery has serpentine drawers, dividers, valances, intricate millwork on the capitals along with small flutes in the pallisters. Also, the prospect box has a small door with a raised tombstone panel door. The baseboard in the gallery is milled to match the serpentine drawers. In addition, the mutins in the doors of the upper case would take spraying. The pieces are end to end glued and will take on sufficient strength after the front and back mutins are glued together in the door frame.
It seems that the more I read the more uncetain I am about what to do. If not for the crotch veneer and the desire to tint the walnut red, I would buy some good spray equipment and finish with shellac. I started this thread to find out a few things about spray equipment.
Thank you for your reply.
Shellac can be sprayed, but the result is not as good as french polish. It tends to crawl away from unfilled grain and pinholes. Sounds like a lot of work no matter how you do it. But, makes me even more inclined to suggest a finish that is easily reversible. If you make a mistake with any catalyzed finish it is much harder to correct. Also, I would not think that time is such a big concern here. If it takes a while, then that's what it takes. I do musical instruments. I'm not so much concerned with time as quality. I don't like to spray, but some things need a certain look that you only get by spraying. I have no need to put down a quart of finish an hour. I use a Badger double-action airbrush. Goes from a hairline to a two inch pattern and zero to maybe a half ounce per minute with a touch of your finger. A genuine nitrocellulose lacquer is what I'd suggest if you have to spray. An oil-less compressor or a superb filter/drier system is a must. You want no water or oil in your air. The choice of equipment is large. You can spend anywhere from $50 to a few thousand. I know people who can do a flawless job with a $50 Walmart spray gun.
Bob,
I hope my reply does not imply that I am not appreciative of your attempt to help. However, yours is typical of the responses I have gotton so far and the reason I have not gotten closer to resolving my delimma.
You like french polishing and I would too-on flat surfaces. Maybe I do not really know enough about french polishing. I do have have publications by both Jeff Hewett and Bob Flexner. In addition, I attended a weekend class by Flexner at highland hardware in Atlanta.
How would one do a french polish application on chippendale mutins that are end glued(and weak in its prestent form), and all of the millwork on the project. Also, You did not say how I could get my red tint onto the walnut using the french polish technique.
Thanks for your reply and I look forward to at least one more.
I expect I didn't get my point across too well. It is possible to french polish your piece. Similar ornate pieces were routinely done by hand before spray equipment was invented. I could do it. Might not be the best option for you, however. Takes a lot of practice. I'm not sure I'd want the look of a sprayed finish on a piece like that. Too modern. But, that's your choice. If it were me, I'd either do french polish or Waterlox. Not necessary to be scared by a piece like that. It will just be a whole lot of work. If you want to do french polish, I'd give it a year of practice first. Books and courses are no substitute for practice. Dye the first one or two coats. The remainder dewaxed blonde. Fine detail has to be brushed or airbrushed.
If you have decided you're going to spray -
I think the choice of finish is more important than the choice of spray gun. I would choose nitrocellulose lacquer. McFadden most likely. It is reversible, repairable and 100% burn-in. Easy to dye. I'd use R-1741 blister-free washcoat/sealer . Made specifically to use on mahogany or open grain woods. Don't sand or scuff. Then coats of finish. Dye the first 2 or 3 to suit your needs. This takes the most care to get the color even. Topcoat with L-3745 semi-gloss or L3561 high gloss. Probably 4 coats. Try not to scuff or sand until the last coat to avoid cutting into the color coats. Scuff to remove nibs with liberon oil-free steel wool or wet sand where necessary. I would definitely use a tinted sealer on a piece like that rather than putting dye or stain directly on the wood. I'd sand to 600 or 800 before applying the finish. You'll get a lot of opinions on that.
Spray gun. SATA mini-jet 3. $300 or so. Very low air consumption. You don't need a big rig for this. Something like a Devilbiss 500 air cleaner or a cheaper sub-micron filter. Air has to be oil and water-free. Very important. More important than the gun.
Spray booth. I built my own. You need a bigger one. In a well-ventillated space (open garage bay - NOT in the house or shop). Get a couple dozen furnace filters. Fairly cheap. The inlet filters should be fairly good ones like 3M. Tape them together to make two filter panels about 8 by 8 feet. Hang them to create a booth about 8 feet square. One on one side, one on the other with plastic sheet on the other 2 sides. A big ventillation fan OUTSIDE the booth blowing air through the better filter panel, across the piece and out through the other panel. A halfway decent commercial spray booth, even a used one, is $ many thousands.
Lacquer and dye and supplies - $200Spray gun and filter - $500 to $750Respirator - $50 & upSpray booth and fan - $500A good 100 hours labor.
Practice. The $7K may be looking more attractive at this point. I would think a competent professional job could be had for a good deal less. Maybe half.
Wow!!!
Did I get two good replies from you and nikkiwood(sp).
The only thing I would like additional answers to is how to apply the finish to the crotchwood veneer. I would want to be close in what to do before I use the limited sample piece for practice.
I don't know enough about the crotchwood veneer to reply.
I agree with Bob about not spraying inside your house or shop (with any solvent based finish).
His suggestions for setting up a temporary booth may be desirable, but many of us (e.g. me) get by with a lot less.
I hope you will come back to this thread, even after it disappears into the archives, and let us know how you decide to work all this out.
Yes, I get along with a lot less too. But, my take is that coolbreeze wants a pretty flawless result on the first attempt. A booth helps and that variety is about the simplest. Lacquer itself is pretty forgiving because it dries fast enough that not much can settle on it.
So far as finishing the burl part, depends on how porous it is. Exactly why I suggested sealer first and toner second. To avoid absorption problems. Not the way to achieve the most natural look, but safer. I think filler is out. Too much detail and I dislike filler anyway. Can make a nasty mess. If the burl is not carved and is easy enough to sand, no problem. Just need more coats over the burl and an occasional sanding to level it. Don't sand more often than every 3 or 4 coats. If you cut through to the color coat or wood, could get uneven color. Every wet coat gives 1 or 2 mils of dry thickness. Might take many extra coats on the burl. But, need to take care not to get too thick. More than about .010 dry film thickness isn't good. Some people make special high-build filler, but I don't care for it. Takes a lot of care to make sure it remains mostly in the grain and not on top.
Only other thing I can say is wait much longer than the recommended minimum to recoat. That's under controlled conditions and yours are not. Some of the tail solvents take a long time to evaporate. Nitro can be recoated any time after the minimum. Unlike catalyzed finishes. Wait a week if you want. Recoat too soon and it can get soft or wrinkled.
Practice. Spray lightly but wet. Too wet gets drippy. Too dry gets lumpy.
Bob and Nikkiwood,
Thanks again for some additional points. I am going to have to make up my mind which way I go. The crotch veneer is quite porous and I agree that wood filler would not be advisable. At this point, I am inclined to issue an ultimatum to the finisher who has my secretary to get on the project and do it soon or I pick it up. If i do pick it up, I will then make up my mind whether to pad on the finish or spray.
Nikkiwood, I will remember your request for a follow-up post after the finish is complete. I plan to get a digital camera soon and will post a photograph of the secretary at that time.
thanks too from my end.......... and good luck.
re: your statement in the last post ".......... I have not gotten closer to resolving my dilemma."
As you point out, you posted this thread to ask about spray equipment and everyone (including me) is pushing you toward some other approach. Based on my read , you really don't want to fuss with shellac, etc., and you still prefer to spray.
So, if I'm right, here's my line of counsel:
1) Survey all the places in your vicinity that sell industrial level spray equipment. Visit each, explain your situation, and ask what unit they would recommend. Forget all the advice on different units which you might read in these forums. If you were prepared to spend $7000 for someone else to spray the unit, I think you should buy the very best unit they sell. If it's a decent store, the odds are, whatever they are selling at the top of the line, it will do the job for you.
Carry a pic of the secretary, which will communicate a lot about you, and the project at hand.
What you are mainly looking for is a place that sells pro level equipment, but most of all, an operation that is dedicated to customer service, and is willing to work with you to get through the problems you might have getting up to speed with the unit they recommend.
If you find a person that is particularly knowledgeable, it would not be inappropriate to ask them if they would come around to give you the short course in exchange for lunch/beer and maybe a $50 bill.
I bought a top of the line Wagner Cap Spray unit not because I thought it was the best available -- but only because they are manufactured locally, and told me they would be willing to answer any questions I had. I had never so much as held a spray gun in my hand before, and I ended up going out there two different times -- and their help was invaluable. At one point, there were four different guys giving me advice in their on premises spray booth. It's amazing how much such people are willing to help -- once they know you're serious and appreciative.
2) Use nitrocellulose lacquer. This may not be the most durable stuff (when compared to various catylized products), but it is plenty ok for your secretary -- after all, you're not doing a bar top with this finish. And best of all, it is repairable and reversible.
3) Set up the gun, and spend some time running plain old water through it on cardboard sheets and boxes. This will give you an idea of spray patterns, adjustments, etc.
4) Go out and immediately buy a copy of WOODWORK (#87, JUNE 2004), and carefully read and absorb Bob Flexner's piece on "Application Defects" (Page 57). Bar none, it is the best concise explanation I have ever seen on the kind of problems you are likely to run into.
5) Go to the best store for finishing supplies in your area (one which sells lots of stuff to working pro finishers). Buy the lacquer they recommend, along with retarder and lacquer thinner (thinners are not all the same).
Tell them what you're doing, be as nice as you can be, and soak up all the advice they can give you about spraying lacquer in your area (especially contending with the humidity). Be sure to ask them how to combat blushing and dry spray.
Again, if you encounter someone that is bubbling over with expertise, ask them if they might be willing to pay you a visit (for a "consulting fee") if you get stuck and can't find a way to dig yourself out.
6) Find something to practice on with the lacquer -- you especially need a piece with lots of nooks and crannies, which will be your biggest spraying challenge with the secretary. If you don't have such a piece, invest in a piece of MDF, cut off half the sheet and use it to build boxes of various sizes (fast, simple, butt nailed) and then affix those boxes in any simple way on the remaining half of the MDF piece. The color and character of MDF will tell you immediately how the spraying is going and what you need to practice on.
I hope all of this helps. You are obviously a serious, thoughtful person who has built a great project. And I wanted to do the best I could to give you a serious response.
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