I mostly spray pre-cat lacquer using a conventionl gun, however I have a job that requires a shellac finish. I would appreciate any advice as to what “pound cut” would be appropiate for spraying. TIA, Art
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Replies
Art, I spray a 2# cut. It's not at all critical. Shellac is the ultimate forgiving finish. The first coat is the sanding sealer. Let it harden at least several hours, if not over night, then level it with 320 grit on a felt or rubber sanding block, gently taking down the raised grain, dust nids, etc. Then you can spray light, but wet 3 coats a day about 1-2 hours apart. level the previous day's work the next morning with 320. I spray 3 day's work then final level with 320, and then go up in grit, 400, 600, 4-0 steel wool or as high as desired, up to automotive rubbing and polishing compound, depending on the final surface that's desired. Rich
Thanks, I'm going try it today. Art
Rich
Do you spray all 3 coats in one day with NO sanding in between. I've only used shellac sparingly, but want to spray it on an upcoming project with my hvlp setup, and would like to learn as much as possible before hand. My previous go-round with shellac was brushed on, and it was a nightmare. I couldn't keep a wet edge, and kept getting ridges, no matter how fast I worked.
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff,
I always scuff sand after the first coat which always raises the grain. I usually sand after the second coat also. It's never possible to get a completely level surface at this stage. My goal is to get a completely level, even, "ground glass" appearing surface, because the next coat or the one after that will be the final coat and it will polish out beautifully.
I'm not usually in a hurry and I apply one coat a day, level sanding each one. With each sanding, the shiny valleys of shellac in-between the levelled "hills" become smaller and smaller until they all merge. If I'm in a hurry, I apply three coats a day with no in-between sanding, but I start out each day by sanding the previous day's spraying.
Once you learn to spray, you'll never go back to brushing. there's a learning curve. Just keep the light situated so you can always see the wet finish on the surface you're spraying.
Rich
Rich
Thanks. I spray alot, and have for about 12 years. I just never sprayed shellac. I used to spray lacquer, and now only spray my furniture with Crystalac, a water based hard finish that I really like. It's easy to use, and easy to clean up, and looks great. However, I keep hearing about how nice shellac looks on walnut, and I'm building a cabinet out of walnut right now, and wish to use the shellac as a finish.
When I spray crystalac, I always sand in between each coat to level the surface. I've tried multiple coats without sanding in between in the past, and it just didn't turn out as nice. It seems that the nibs, or some orange peel, would get trapped in between coats. That's why I asked about your advice on the shellac, because I know that each subsequent coating of shellac disolves into the previous coat a little, unlike crystalac, which doesn't do this.
Thanks,
Happy Holidays!
Jeff
Good advice from all. Jeff, can you let us know how shellac compares to Crystalac, once you've used the shellac. I've been spraying lacquer and REALLY don't like the fumes, smells, etc. My wife about passes out from the stuff and that's before she even gets out of the car. (I use an explosion proof fan to exhaust the fumes, but it takes forever to get it out of the shop.)
I'm definitely interested in switching finishes so would appreciate any info anyone has on pros & cons of other spray finishes. (durability, darkening, yellowing, silkines of touch, you know, just EVERYTHING)
Thanks.
Alan
I have used Crystalac for quite some time, about 7 years now, and I absolutely love it. No explosive fumes, and with a good hvlp system, you spray it right out of the can. No cutting, and no mess. I simply stir, strain, and spray. It dries in about 15 to 20 minutes. I wait 24 hours after the first coat for hardening, sand at 400 grit, and spray 3 successive coats all on the next day, about 20 minutes apart, with a light scuffing with 600 and 800 grit. My wife's dining room table that I made her is 6 years old, made of solid cherry. It has 4 coats, and gets sunlight. It hasn't yellowed at all. Alls you see is the beauty of the natural patina of cherry.
They sell it in satin, which I used mostly, and semi gloss, for jewelry boxes and such. Good stuff!
I'll post what I think about the comparison with shellac, but it won't be until next month before I'm finished with the piece.
Jeff
Jeff, Crystalac is apparently a family of finishes including two resin finishes (Premium Clear Coat and Super Premium Clear Coat) that are said to be lacquer or shellac-like, and a polyurethane product. I've been using Varathane's water-borne Crystal Clear Diamond water-borne, which I have found to be excellent. It's clarity is, well, crystal clear. Like any varnish, multiple coats in one day are not a good idea. I apply each coat 2 days apart, scuff sanding inbetween and wait a month before final rubbing out. Which Crystalac product are you using?
Rich
I use the super premium clear coat now, but was using the other up until 3 years ago. I contacted Crystalac about this same issue, because the salesman told me it was ok to apply this way, and they stated the same. Every piece I've constructed in the last 5 years has been sprayed this way, with no incident. I'm a firm believer that the proof is in the pudding.
I'm not up on all the definitions of finishes, so I won't even go there. It's not a varnish, and not a polyurethane, as far as what my def's for those products are. Also, when I'm finished spraying for the day, I simply rinse the gun and it's components off in the sink, fill the cup with water, and spray it out. Clean as a whistle, without alot of time. When I was spraying oil based products, cleanup was, to put it lightly, not desireable to me.
Happy new year,
Jeff
Jeff, Thanks. I wasn't challenging anything, just asking. Rich
Rich
I certainly apologize if I came off as defensive, as it definately wasn't my intent. I was only trying to clarify my earlier post.
I can build anything, but when it comes to finishing, I've always kept it as simple as possible. The only way I'll learn other techniques is to listen to guys like you who are more familiar with them, and actually try to learn something.
Sometimes typed words don't reflect properly the tone of the individual typing. I'm frequently misunderstood in this regard, and will make an effort to lighten it up in the upcoming year, as this would definately represent my actual personality a bit better. You're not the first to feel that I was defending a product or position, so it definately must be my choice of words.
Happy New Year, and don't drink to much tonight! I'll be on the couch watching the Bears and the Blackhawks games. Whoopee!
Jeff
Jeff
Jeff, I'm going to give the Crystalac a try. My temporary "new shop" will start to come together in early Feb. I prolly won't be ready to finish anything for several months after that.
Jeff,
Sounds like a winner. I'll give it a try. Do you have a web site so we can see what you've done & how the finish looks?
Thanks.
Alan
Alan
My website is under construction. After 20 years, I've finally caved in to technology. It won't be finished until next month, though. As far as pics of my work go, check the archives in the Gallery. I've posted a couple of my pieces this year. No need to repost them unless you can't find them. Let me know.
Happy New Year,
Jeff
Jeff,
Sorry, I couldn't find your photos. I entered Jeff Heath in the Gallery, and you didn't come up. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Alan
What would you like to see pics of?
Furniture, cabinetry, or both?
Jeff
Both, please. Thanks.
Alan
All these pieces are finished in Crystalac. I don't know if you'll be able to tell anything, as my photography leaves much to be desired. I've got several pieces going to a professional photographer for photographing for my website, but that won't be for a few more weeks. Hope this helps.
Jeff
PS Forget the first one, I forgot to resize the file. The 2nd one is the same photo resized.
Thanks Jeff. Looks great- the work and the finish.
Alan
Thanks. I'll be spraying shellac next week, so I am curious to see how similar or different it is to work with than the Crystalac. Crotch cherry jewelry box, should be nice, if I don't screw it up.
Jeff
Are there any pro tips related to cleanup for shellac? I ask since you can use the same brush for shellac without cleaning it, just soak it in DA before use.Thx
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Shellac cleanup with alcohol, any kind. Perfect!
That's as "pro" as it gets!
Rich
In my experience shellac will clean up much better with household ammonia rather than alcohol (although alcohol will work). Ammonia is cheaper too. John
Jeff, My first experience with shellac was much the same as yours: extremely difficult to brush on. I bought a wagner HVLP conversion gun and am now having much better luck applying shellac. HTH, John
The wood was cherry to which I had previously treated with one coat of a BLO/varnish/mineral spirits mixture. I sprayed three coats of the 2 # cut shellac with light scuff sanding (320 grit) between coats and the result is really nice. Thanks again, Art
Sounds like shellac is a good alternative to lacquer. How does it hold up over time compared to lacquer? What about stain resistance, alcohol (the kind that comes in bottles from Scotland), acids, etc? What about UV protection, yellowing, etc?
Thanks.
Alan
Shellac compared to lacquer: water resistence--a tad less, but close, particularly dewaxed shellac. Alcohol--quite a bit less resistence, but still not as vulnerable as some seem to think. You can spill a martini and have ample time to wipe it off. UV resistence is excellent, and there is much less yellowing over time than lacquer (at least common NC) I don't think acids are much of a problem, but alkali's certainly are. Ammonia is a solvent for shellac. But with ordinary care shellac is a very durable finish that protects wood quite well and is easy to repair if need be.
However, shellac can have unsurpassed beauty, has a tendancy to bring out the natural colors in woods. It rubs out very well.
French polish--a technique of applying shellac and filling wood pores--probably yields the very finest gloss finish of all in terms of beauty.
Although I regard lacquer finishes (particularly CAB-Acrylic) as somewhat more durable than shellac, in addition to the qualities Steve listed, an additional "benefit" of shellac may be lower toxicity of the solvent in the air when applying. I'm not sure of this, but it is well-known how toxic lacquer thinners are, especially to brain tissue and liver. Alcohol fumes are nothing to trifle with, but I don't think they are as dangerous as lacquer thinner. Rich
Rich 14
Let me second that. shellac by itself is what the drug companies coat pills with.. they use pure alcohol rather than the denatured stuff we have access to but other than that here is nothing in shellac to worry about..
If you want pure clean then use straight alcohol rather than the denatured stuff.. (tends to be very expensive) I'm cheap so I use denatured stuff but I read the ingreadiants. All it needs is 2% of something you can't drink and it's denatured but what that 2% is varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. I am midway between 4 big box stores two of which are HomeDepots, they both have differant suppliers actaully all 4 have differant suppliers of denatured alcohol.
Now tee toatallers shouldn't spray it because they will get a buzz on without a resperator. 3M makes the one most commonly used and I can get many many spray jobs before I need to replace the cartridges (which aren't very expensive)
Lacquer on the other hand I need to suit up and cover myself completely or I react to it in a pretty big way. I won't spray the two part stuff anymore.
I used to spray a lot of lacquer without any kind of skin or breathing protection. Nothin' much I can do about the dead brain cells now, but do you think I should be worrying about the second nose that is growing on my forehead?
Rich
Steve gave a very good compairison to Nitro Lacquer. I am often tempted to try Shellac in a kitchen.. But I dont think it would be a good idea. I never use Nitro any more instead I use Shellac. If wear, moisture, and cleaning product resistance are a concern I use a catalysed product.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
As mentioned Shellac is verry forgiving. I use Bullseye's Shellac that you can buy at any big box store. For a blonde finish I have not seen any difference between this product and any other product, except that when I mix my own flake it seems to harden quicker. I spray straight out of the can for the first two coats with my 4 stage turbine set up. This give some orange peel but I don't care because I sand it down any way. For the first sandings I use 120 grit premium paper and I lube the surface with Mineral spirits from a spray bottle. The minerial spirits lubes the paper and slows how quick it loads up, but it dosen't effect the Shellac at all. Expect to replace the paper pretty quickly. After the first two caots are sanded level I start thinning it to about the same consistancy as Lacquers for spraying. I tend to keep the fluid adjustment pretty high so there is still a little more orange peel than ideal, but I sand after each coat with 120 or 220. When I get the film thickness I want and/or the gain leveled I spray a couple of fine coats with the fluid truned down for the best atomisation I can get. Then I sand from 220 up to #0000 steel wool, or untill I get the sheen I want. For a perfect gloss use polishing compounds. This is actually an easy process.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
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