The archive contains several threads on the subject but the question is, is there a specific type, brand, whatever of shellac that’s more appropriate than others for spraying? In particular, I’m limited in my area to Zinzer brand dewaxed (or waxed but I understand dewaxed it the prefered). This is about all I’ve found available on the shelves around here. Thus if cut properly for my gun, is this a sprayable material? Otherwise I’ll do the mail order thing.
Thanks
Replies
I believe that Zinsser is the only manufacturer of pre-mixed shellac in the US.
However, there are a number of suppliers of flakes which you mix with alcohol to make your own liquid shellac.
"I believe that Zinsser is the only manufacturer of pre-mixed shellac in the US."That would explain it then.Thanks, Howie.I'm not really sure if I want to go the spray option with shellac or not. I'm not much of a finisher - just looking for advice in trying to become one.
I'm not really sure if I want to go the spray option with shellac or not. I'm not much of a finisher - just looking for advice in trying to become one.I be tryin' that for about 40 years! Maybe someday!
Will -I haven't really decided what to do, either. I'm at a point of total frustration with my spray results. I think it's in no small part due to this used gun I was given and tried to clean up. It's a, or was a top quality DeVilbiss cup gun at one point but was left in a really sorry state the last time it was used before I got it. I did manage to get it thorougly cleaned up but I think the needle and spray nozzle need replacing, plus a few other tuneup items. I finally located a local source for parts, any Sherwin Williams paint dealer is an authorized DeVilbiss/Binks service place or at least where you can order parts; you can't order them directly from DeVilbiss. Actually it's ITW that owns both Binks and DeVilbiss at this point.So, Monday next I'm off to get some parts for the gun.
I think Parks sells some pre-mixed shellac, but I haven't seen it around hear. I have seen, but can't vouche for, a statistic that Zinsser sells 90% of the shellac used for finishing in the U.S.. There are some advantages in mixing your own, but the premixed, particularly the Seal Coat dewaxed shellac works fine. I don't know why they market it as "sanding sealer" instead of a finish, since dewaxed shellac makes a better finish than waxed, even if it is not needed for adhesion properties.
Yes, Parks still markets a shellac. However, Zinsser owns Parks. Essentially, Zinsser owns 100% of the US pre-mixed shellac business.
>> I don't know why they market it as "sanding sealer"
If you ask Zinsser, they will say that they are in the sealer/primer business. That's why their SealCoat is not strongly marketed as a shellac. To them, there is a bigger market for it as a "sanding" sealer. Except for some die hards, shellac as a stand alone finish is restricted to restorers or folks making period furniture. Howie.........
But part of the reason why shellac is so limited in use is that its primary manufacturer has essentially written off marketing it as a finish. Its a chicken and egg problem, of course. It is the most under appreciated product on the market, in my opinion. With the "toughness" marketers of poly winning the day with a product that I believe is best left for certain specialty applications.
I agree on the issue of how nice a finish shellac can be. I've been experimenting with it on some turned items and found I can build a fantastic gloss finish so so much faster than even lacquer. It's nice to use than lacquer and while the alcohol fumes probably aren't great for the respitory system, they're far less objectionable than the overspray or smell of lacquer. I can literally flood on the shellac while the piece is on the lathe turning at the slowest RPM, walk away for about 15 min, half an hour at the most and come back to lightly sand and re-coat. Plus I'm beginning to doubt those who would nay-say the durability of the material as well.No, I wouldn't finish a wine goblet with it but I wouldn't drink wine out of wooden goblet anyway (grin)
Dennis,
I sprayed shellac on a lowboy I made recently. It seemed to me that I didn't get the film build that I was expecting. I ran out of shellac, and ended up top-coating with lacquer to get the build I wanted. After the lowboy was done I did a bit more research on applying shellac and found that there are many that think that padding the shellac on is a much better way to go. I kinda wish that I had done that on my lowboy instead of spraying. I wouldn't have had to deal with the orange-peal, and the blushing due to the fast evaporation of the alcohol (at the time I did the spraying, the humidity was hovering around 80-85%), and wouldn’t have wasted so much material from overspray.
Just my thoughts…
-kevin
GrainW.Part and parcel of my interest in shellac as a finish is the extremely fast drying time for use in finishing turned items. I recently did a practice piece, a small pencil pot type object that I applied several coats of 2lb (approx.) cut shellac sanded between coats with 600 grit, the final coat finished with 4-0 steel wool then waxed. Absolutely stunning. Applying the shellac with a brush was a pain in the .... is why I'm interested in spraying. For one-off items like this perhaps the spray-can approach would be a better option than 'contaminating' my spray setup with shellac??
Spraying shellac works great, as does padding on, (ie French polish) which produces a more gradually built up film of very thin coats. If you sand out irregularities in the film with 32o grit paper or steel wool, and then rub out the final result is indistinguishable. I am currently using the Zinsser product in an HVLP spray gun and it goes on nicely. It comes as a 3 lb cut in a can and I cut it to about a 1 1/2 to 2 lb cut so it's thinner. Just practice on scrap to get the timing of how quickly to pass your gun (or spray can) over the surface and at what distance (usually 6-8 inches), to get the film thickness you want, without runs or sags, and without orange peel.
Jay
Dennis, I wouldn't worry about contaminating your spray equipment with shellac; it cleans up very easily with denatured alcohol. There is a comprehensive article about more that you ever wanted to know about shellac by Jeff Jewitt that can be found at: http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/shellac.htm
It's an eight page article, the section on 'Applying Shellac' (about 3/4 the way through) is where he talks about padding and other methods on application.hope this helps...-kevin
I haven't tried it on spray equipment, but a very cheap and effective cleanup method for removing shellac from brushes is household ammonia. Ammonia destroys shellac pretty much instantly, and the result rinses out with water.Pete
Edited 10/29/2005 10:07 am ET by PeteBradley
If you look in the gallery under "tabernacle" you can see a padded shellac finish. Padding is not french polishing. It is a fairly easy, nearly foolproof finish. That piece was done with shellac flakes.
Frank
Hi Dennis,
I will sometimes spray shellac to warm up the appearance of woods like walnut when the customer has expressed a strong preference for a water-borne top coat; a coat or two or garnet or orange helps to offset the bluish coloration of water-white finishes. Sprayng is also a good way to develop a quick build.
When I spray, I always filter the shellac first, and thin as needed for good atomization - a viscosity cup helps a great deal here. I consider two applictions, sprayed perpendicular to one another, one coat. If I spray from a distance of 6" - 8" I get good coverage without drips, runs, sags, or orange peel once I have the gun adjusted properly (if in doubt, test spray on a piece of cardboard to better visualize the results before spraying your project).
A huge advantage of Zinser's Seal Coat is its long 3-year shelf life; three times as long as other shellac products.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 10/30/2005 2:52 pm by jazzdogg
Thanks, Jassdog for the reply. As I noted in my reply to Will, I'm becoming more than frustrated with this whole spray business. Whether it's the used gun as I described or my total lack of know-how is open for debate. I'm gonna get a rebuild kit and replace the spray nozzle and needle along with some gaskets and whatever else the service guy thinks needs it, check the price on all that stuff and probably pop for a new gun! (grin). Of course I get a new gun then find out I still don't know how to use it then I'll really be annoyed!!What, you may be wondering, or may not, none the less, are my problems?? The ubiquitous orange peel problem. I've read thread after thread on the subject so don't really think it's fair to start another one. The other thing is the amount of overspray.My understanding of HVLP spray systems is that there's very little overspray and bounce back. I get lots. Lots more than I would have expected from what I've heard and read. I've regulated the pressure to the gun down to 20PSI. Anything lower than this and the gun will barely siphon even 50-50 lacquer. Is one supposed to be able to or should one attempt to achieve what I can best describe as a 'flowed on' finish? Meaning should the surface being sprayed appear to be "wet"? Or do you apply multiple coats of material (either lacquer -or- shellac) to get this built-up level finish?How much sanding do you do between coats? Given a slight to moderate orange peel, should this be sanded out level before continuing with further applications of material?I don't think I'll be considering spray finishing as a career.
D, got your note, just sent a reply, code to follow. Am letting you know here in case you don't get them (again). re: spraying, have you spent any time with Jeff Jewitt?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I had mixed luck spraying shellac. I have a Porter-Cable (DeVilbiss) HVLP conversion gun. Probably not getting the mixture thinned appropriately or blowing it on too thick. I also had trouble with a thick edge creeping up inside corners of my small box projects. I used full strength Zinnzer SealCoat which is a 2 lb. cut of dewaxed according to the Highland Hardware Catalog. I read somewhere (shellac.net or maybe homesteadfinishing.com) that there is a product that keeps that fat edge from forming, and retardant additives that allow better flow out (I tried using turpentine, my garage smelled like Christmas for weeks).All told I prefer to pad on shellac when the pieces are flat and unassembled, taping off areas that will be glue joints. No gun to clean, fast build and dry time. This is especially good for inside box surfaces-you can get a fast film build followed with wax. Glue squeeze out from single catalyst polyurethane glue (Gorilla glue, etc) peels right off even when fully cured. Probably works the same with aliphatic glues (yellow, Type III Tightbond, etc.)
No, Jeff and I haven't met. (grin). But thanks to the 'conversation' with Richard and digging around on the DeVilbiss web site I've discovered that this MBC xxx gun is !not! an HVLP type. Thus in a great part my frustrations.This afternoon I went back to square one, cranked the pressure (to the outlet where the guns plugged in up to 40PSI and got much much better results. However the overspray as you can well imagine was totally unnacceptable. Again, this may have a lot to do with learning how to properly adjust air/fuel mixture and getting the gun tuned up with the new parts (investigation process begins tomorrow).Got the email regarding image code. As I suspected it's just a matter of formatting the HTML code the way this board wants it.
Hey, Dennis, you there? Have you checked your email? Still awaiting a repsonse! Also, I'm supposed to let you know that Tom has a bow for you. He's not been able to get in touch for some reason. Write me and I'll try to connect the dots.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You're getting good advice from some experts, a category that doesn't include me! ;-)
I decided a while back to learn shellac and spraying "come what may." I've been getting great results from super blond flakes from lee valley, mixed to 1.5 - 2 lb. cut, and shooting with a very affordable (but well made) Sata knockoff HVLP conversion gravity gun. The compressor I'm using puts out about half the specified SCFM the gun needs, so I get a something between true HVLP and conventional gun performance.
I do not get good results from most waxed shellacs (both flakes and Zinsser). I don't know if it's properly termed orange peel or fisheye, but I get these little craters where the shellac won't adhere, in unpredictable places.
At this point I'm convinced spraying shellac is an excellent option, especially if a top coat of something tougher is used. My only reservation now is the expense of a explosion proof spray setup, so I have to go outdoors. Next step for me is to try out waterborne shellac. If that's a success I'll invest in a serious compressor.
My $.02 FWIW
-robert
Ram -The overspray, explosion-fire situation has begun to really concern me as well! As I noted to Kevin in another discussion, when I got through spraying yesterday I was appaled at the cloud of explosive vapors I had created. I don't know what the proper air fuel mixture has to be with lacquer or alcohol to set off an explosion but I had to be pretty close.
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