Replies

1. 
   ring | Apr 26, 2007 08:14am | #1

   The main benefit is that it is very very fast. In my shop we have often sprayed stain while a second worker follows up with a rag to even out any overspray.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

2. 
   philip | Apr 26, 2007 10:39am | #2

   As David has said it is very fast. It is also much easier- you merely blast it on and wipe it off, instead of loading rags, sponges or brushes with it , wiping on then wiping off. Easier to even it out. Less mess, less rags etc.

   Philip Marcou
1. 
   dperfe | Apr 26, 2007 02:02pm | #3

   thanks.

3. 
   user-83153 | Apr 26, 2007 04:53pm | #4

   dperfe,

      What is the purpose of the danish oil? What is marketed as Danish oil is either a wiping varnish or an oil/varnish blend. If you are planning on using it as an oil to accentuate the grain and/or figure of the cherry you would be better off using BLO, and neither will be able to do its job when you have already applied a sealer coat. I don't know what your sealer or top coat will be but no matter what the danish oil seems superfluous to me.

                  Rob

4. 
   Kevin | Apr 26, 2007 05:26pm | #5

   As others have said, it is faster. I personally don't wipe dye stain when I spray it. I use it more as "no-wipe" spray-only stain, or more commonly, I use it as a no-wipe toner in conjunction with one or more other color steps.

   I know that using either water or alcohol with dyes is the prevailing wisdom in the trade, but I have found that I prefer using Acetone most of the time. All three behave slightly differently.

   As for the benefit of applying dye by spraying rather than with a rag, sponge or brush... if your intention is to wipe it then the only difference is going to be speed. If your intention is a no-wipe versus wipe then you're going to get a somewhat different appearance in many cases, largely depending on the species of wood and whether it's figured or not. Evening out color variation between sapwood and heartwood is a classic example of where and why dye is (commercially) sprayed on as a no-wipe color step. It would be difficult if not impossible to get as good a result in that application from a wiping dye stain. A no-wipe allows you to selectively apply color.

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 26, 2007 05:34pm | #6

   Let me address a couple of points.

   As to spraying dye stain, keep in mind that setting up and later cleaning your gun can take longer than just applying the stain with a brush or rag. If you use an alcohol based dye, then spraying is necessary for an even application. Unless the project is big, wiping the dye can be just as time effective as spraying.

   Lets look at your finishing schedule. Once you apply a sealer (whatever you consider that), you will have effectively sealed the wood surface and no other material will be able to penetrate. "Danish Oil"--or any oil for that matter--is a penetrating finish and will not be absorbed. Oils are intended to be absorbed or they will not dry and just leave you with a gummy mess. In addition, "Danish Oil" is just an oil/varnish mixture. It can be a nice "in the wood" finish but it does not require any overcoating. If you just are looking to "pop" the grain with the Danish Oil, boiled linseed oil will work the same and you can then overcoat it with whatever clear coat you chose. So, I would suggest you re-think your finish schedule and when it's all said and done, make up some samples using scrap from your project. Don't ever let your project be your learning experience.

   A good finishing schedule for cherry is a light amber dye to tie in the colors followed by a coat of BLO wiped dry after 15-20 minutes. Let everything dry for 2-3 days and then apply a clear coat of lacquer--as you have spray equipment--or apply 2-3 coats of a non-poly varnish.

   Howie.........
1. 
   dperfe | Apr 26, 2007 09:09pm | #7

   Thanks people, I appreciate the help. I'll answer the questions and explain in more detail what's going on. First off, I was under the impression, due in large part to a sales clerk who gave me wrong information, that you can have either a danish oil finishing product OR a danish oil stain product. I Just found out earlier today from a different clerk at our local Rockler that this is wrong, as well as from reading your responses. I was intending to use General Finishes Cherry Danish oil as a glaze over the dyed and sealed cherry. But again, i was under the impression that the GF cherry dan oil was essentially an oil based pigment stain. I now understand that it is a colored top coat that is intended for deep wood penetration. The project I'm doing is a 12ft wall unit with fireplace mantle, made of cherry wood. It's for a friend, and he wants a very reddish color. I ended up with the Cherry danish oil because he liked the color it produced. I have actually read quite a bit and made numerous samples. I even talked briefly with Jeff Jewitt, didn't mention the danish oil though. One of the things that is causing me difficulty in getting the deep red that he wants, is the sealer. I had chosen the Zinser sealcoat because of its ease of use and it being much less dangerous to work with than say a lacquer based sealer. But the shellac shifts the color of the die (transfast med red/brown) quite a bit. At this point I'm willing to go with a different sealer. I know in Jeff's books he recommends using a lacquer based sealer over a light amber dye, and then glaze and finish. To go with the lacquer, i would have to spray it outside, and i'm not so sure that's a good idea.I am open to suggestions with the entire schedule, i just need to get a deep reddish brown (mostly red)without the splotching. The project is just about ready to go. I had been planning to dye, seal, glaze and then apply a water based finish. I was planning to stain and finish it in sections, install it, and then perhaps do an additional coat of finish if need be. Thanks again

   Edited 4/26/2007 2:15 pm ET by dperfe

1. 
   Kevin | Apr 26, 2007 09:57pm | #8

   I ended up with the Cherry danish oil because he liked the color it produced.

   ...

   But the shellac shifts the color of the die (transfast med red/brown) quite a bit.

   Hmmm... A couple questions/ideas...

   The color sample that your friend approved... Was it on raw wood or did it have a finish over the stain?

   If it was on raw wood then that's the problem. Any stain needs a finish over it before you get to an accurate representation of what it'll look like on the finished piece.

   If it had a finish over it then it's possible that the shellac sealer coat is dissolving the dye back into solution and changing the look because it then becomes part of the shellac coat sitting above the wood. If so then a light wash coat of heavily thinned shellac to create a resin barrier between the stain and a full sealer coat should help. It's been my consistent experience that all reddish warm-colored dyes (red, brown, orange, etc) look redder if they are sitting up above the wood then they do if they are only in the wood and don't get pulled up into the finish. It's strictly an optical effect as far as I can tell. The same amount of the same color of dye looks different above the wood then it does in the wood.

   Edited 4/26/2007 2:57 pm by Kevin

1. 
   dperfe | Apr 27, 2007 03:18pm | #12

   Kevin,I dyed the sample piece with 1/2 cut transtint med red/brown, sealed it with zinser seal coat, which shifted the color to an amber, applied two coats of the GF Cherry Danish Oil, and lastly put a urethane top coat on. It produced a fairly thick, red color.I think i'll try some different sealer/glaze combinations to hopefully get the red he wants.

2. 
   Hastings | Apr 27, 2007 01:18am | #9

   Howie:Forgive me for barging into someone else's thread.You said, "A good finishing schedule for cherry is a light amber dye" I have just ordered test amounts of Transfast Water Soluble Dye Powders in Antique Cherry Red, Medium Reddish Brown and Cherry. I plan to do some samples at various concentrations and mixes on cherry.After that I plan to spray Sherwin Williams Catalyzed Vinyl Sealer and their Catalyzed Lacquer.Do you have any advice regarding the coloring? How will the cherry darken with the finishing regime I have planned?Thank you for your help.Hastings

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 27, 2007 02:51am | #10

   The schedule I wrote about is to give you a "natural" cherry color that will darken naturally over time. The amber dye adds little perceptable color. Rather is provides an even under tone to tie in the slight variations in natural cherry.The dyes you mention are going to color the wood to a much greater extent than that which I described. It's hard for me to really imagine and then explain how it will color your wood. Do as you plan and make up sample boards. Be sure to put on a clear coat after the dye dries. Dyes look very flat unless they are overcoated. Get a spray can of lacquer spray. The lacquer spray will dry fast and be a good mimic for your planned clear coat. Dying cherry will not affect the color change when exposed to UV. It will just end up darker than natural.Howie.........

1. 
   Hastings | Apr 27, 2007 02:47pm | #11

   Howie:Thank you for your input. I have been in somewhat of a quandary about how to finish the cherry for a kitchen. Is it better to let the wood darken naturally, or accelerate it a bit. From reading the posts on finishing here in Knots it seems that most folk tend to the latter. From my research (mainly Flexner), dyes will avoid the potential for blotching that might occur with stains without affecting the figure of the wood. By playing with the concentration, I can take the newness off, but allow for further darkening over time.At least that's the theory!Hastings

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Apr 27, 2007 07:19pm | #15

   >> Is it better to let the wood darken naturally, or accelerate it a bitJust to be clear, dying does not accelerate the darkening of cherry. It will still darken but will start from a darker point. You will end up with an appearence that is more dark than if it darkened naturally. So, only you can answer your question. It depends what you are after after a couple of years.The only way to accelerate the darkening to a natural darkened appearence is to "suntan" it by placing the boards or project in direct sunlight for a few days.Finally, is this the first attempt at spray painting? If so, you run a great risk if you are just starting. Spray painting is not that easy and some learning and experience is necessary. Do not use your project as your learning experience. Get Charron's Spray Finishing from Amazon. It will get you started but plan on a lot of practice. For example, leave the backs off of the cabinets if you plan to spray the insides.Howie.........

2. 
   Hastings | Apr 27, 2007 08:17pm | #16

   Howie:Thank you for your advice; it really is appreciated. Already got Charron's book and have been through it twice.I am concerned about the spray finish. On the other hand the whole process of building my kitchen has been a de novo experience for me. Including building and equiping a shop from bare earth! The process I have followed is to read the available literature on the subject, then practice the technique on something and then finally apply it to the real project. It has worked so far but I'm taking my time and not rushing anything.Finishing presented a challlenge because I had to decide to spray or not to spray. I was encouraged by Charron's book and I thought it was worth acquiring the skill.I am going to finish the carcasses while they are still flat. Only this morning I taped up the lock miter joints. Likewise, when I glue, I will tape the edges so as to keep glue of the finish.Thank you for sharing your insight and experience.Hastings

2. 
   dperfe | Apr 27, 2007 03:20pm | #13

   "Sherwin Williams Catalyzed Vinyl Sealer and their Catalyzed Lacquer."Hastings,
   How has this sealer worked for you? Does it shift the color? Dry quickly, easy to use?

1. 
   Hastings | Apr 27, 2007 03:59pm | #14

   "How has this sealer worked for you? Does it shift the color? Dry quickly, easy to use?"I have been wondering the same thing myself! I decided to go the spray route with the strength and durability of lacquer for the kitchen.I have just ordered these materials from SW (sealer, lacquer, catalyst, thinner) as I get a handy discount of 20% of retail.As soon as I start, I will let you know how I fare.Hastings