Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Jan 05, 2007 08:42am | #1

   carpenter5 ,

                   What part is not square ?

               Are you talking kitchen type cabinets or what type of case work ?

     I trim off all factory edges on sheet goods , makes for  much crisper seams .

         Use a framing square to check corners measure diagonally .

                        tell us more

                                          dusty

1. 
   carpenter5 | Jan 06, 2007 07:54am | #8

   Hey Dusty, thanks for the reply. Yes Ido a lot of litchen cabintery, vanities etc..  . The guys at my old shop always ripped  and cross cut full sheets as is to their desired widths and such and with good results. Their biggest issue was always how little time it took them to make a square cabinet. I use a Delta unisaw and make all my rips first and x cuts one after another to maintain consistency. I guess maybe their experience trumps my skills for now. Time is of great importance to me as I am now self employed and I am copying their methods. Also they always used factory edges on sheet goods???

   I think I'll just slow myself down a bit and work at experience level until speed comes naturally.

    

   Carpenter5

   If you do not trust a factory edge

1. 
   oldusty | Jan 06, 2007 08:35am | #9

      Carpenter5 ,

                     I also use a very experienced Unisaw with Biesemeir fence , sounds like our cutting system is similar , rip then crosscut . I may use the factory edges on the backs or ends of adjustable shelves and on wall end bottoms and tops of wall end walls .I just never glue to a factory edge or end .

        Even parts cut perfectly may not produce square cases if not assembled correctly . Both operations are important . The speed will come in time , but accuracy imo is more important . Even one major mistake can cost more and take longer to repair than taking your time in the first place .

                        regards           dusty

2. 
   jeanlou | Jan 05, 2007 09:30am | #2

   Carperter5 and Oldusty,

   All the following can result in out of square work when machining on a table saw. There also a slew that are associated with the cutting of the tongues and grooves and the tolerances allowed to insure proper assembly, but I will leave those for now and see what else shows up here.

   The fence is not solidly locked and as pressure is applied to keep the sheet tight to the fence, it move a little  /  Sawdust accumulates against the fence and moves the work away from the fence to put the cut out of square  /  The fence is not parallel to the saw blade  /  The saw blade is not true and balanced so that it has a slight wobble  /  the arbour of the saw is not properly aligned  / the saw table does not have large enough extensions added on to properly support the full sheet of material (in feed, out feed, and side)  /  jigs are not built square and parallel

   These are few to start the thought process. I am sure other people  will add some more.   JL

3. 
   ring | Jan 05, 2007 04:05pm | #3

   I really hate to flog a dead horse, but I'm gonna do it once more -

   Ever since I got a nice large sliding-carriage saw, there is no such thing as out of square casework.

   Never use a factory edge. Never trust a corner to be 90° unless I cut it myself a moment ago. Never use warped panels. If it was cut perfectly square the clamping will force it to square up.

   No kidding...if you make a lot of casework, you really should be using the correct tool for the job. No disrespect for all the clever panel-cutting contraptions out there, or what PM, Delta and friends call a tablesaw. But when God said "Let them have table saws" He didn't mean a circular saw that someone hung upside down.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 05, 2007 08:24pm | #6

   Ring,

   You are absolutely right. It's difficult to talk about this without offending people, but it is so true.

   While waiting for my own slider to arrive, I have been "practicing" on a slider at a commercial shop. The difference in easy, repeatable dead-balls-accurate square cuts on a slider vs pushing a sheet against any kind of rip fence on a cabinet saw is astounding. Good, really square cuts without a sliding table saw are rare, no matter how carefully I set things up and work.

   Not that "square" on the cabinet saw with rip fence is very far out. In fact, checking with a machinist's square, everything "looks" ok. But when things really need to line up and multiple cumulative errors combine, assemblies are not square.

   Material cut on the slider has so little error that everything stays square and accurate from one corner of a box to the other and down a row of multiple boxes.

   It's one thing to make a cut and put a square up to it to check. It's another to cut 6-8 panels, them lay them down on a table, edge to edge in a pattern and have the far corner of the last 2 panels come out absolutely dead in line. That's what a sliding table saw gives you, without breaking a sweat.

   Like the equipment salesman said, once you use a slider you'll never go back!

   Rich

1. 
   jeanlou | Jan 06, 2007 05:29am | #7

   Ring and Rich,

   It is true that a sliding table set up works wonders, but that piece of equipment is relatively new on the market. Commercial shops didn't even have them when I got into the trade and we still turned out square panels and case goods and millwork. It is the technique of the person building the casework and the proper tuning of the tools that decides if work will turn out square. Like they say in computer programming, garbage in = garbage out.   JL

1. 
   ring | Jan 06, 2007 10:45am | #10

   Jeanlou,I have to take issue with your disclaimer that these saws "are new on the market." I've had a slider for 17 years now, and they've been around for much longer than that. I've worked on a 40 year old Altendorf. What constantly amazes me is the fact that they are new to the consciousness of North American woodworkers. You can draw your own conclusions.In addition, there are many intense and interesting threads about devices that actually are new on the market: the Festool system, EZ, etc. Why would that discount their value? Either they are valuable or not, no?
   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   Rich14 | Jan 06, 2007 06:38pm | #11

   David, Your website is just about the most impressive display of high quality kitchen design and execution I have ever seen. I don't want to sound like I'm gushing, but the work is nothing short of stunning. Do you do the designing? Is the cabinetmaking carried out in Israel also or is that just for large office design as shown in the slideshow? Rich

2. 
   ring | Jan 06, 2007 07:56pm | #12

   Rich, you've totally embarrased me now...
   Thanks for the compliments. Everything is based in Israel - design, production, delivery. This is our market. The unusual exception was the delivery of that job in NY which we detailed on the website. All the kitchens featured are houses in Israel.
   Thanks again for your kindness.David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

3. 
   jeanlou | Jan 06, 2007 08:14pm | #14

   Yes Ring,excellent work.

    Shalom   JL

4. 
   jeanlou | Jan 06, 2007 08:11pm | #13

   Ring,

   Is stand corrected...What I should have said is that in my professional lifetime, that started 40 years ago, I never worked in a shop with anything more than Unisaws until the past 17 years. In our lifetimme that is a while but historically it is a little fart in a big breeze.   JL

4. 
   cadiddlehopper | Jan 05, 2007 04:41pm | #4

   Never underestimate the value of proper tablesaw setup. On the other hand, it is no substitute for squaring up the case at assembly. I got it square with a Ryobi BT3000 and still do so with a Delta contractor saw with which it is a bit easier. Using squares as I assemble, however, is never omitted from the process. A couple of my favorite tools are my tenoning jig and drill press mortising chisels. Both have made square casework easier. Good luck!!

   Cadiddlehopper

5. 
   Ronaway | Jan 05, 2007 05:06pm | #5

   Square case work starts at the processing of the individual parts. Having the side panels square is the starting point. I typically rough cut the parts over size and then straighten one edge and then cut one end square to that edge. I don't trust a table saw to cross cut the end square, I use a straight edge and a flush trim router bit to dial it in right on the money. Once the first end is square then you can layout the length and cut the other end to the final dimension then rip the other edge to width. When you have this piece cut accurately rough cut the other side slightly over size and use the first piece as a template to cut a perfectly matched second side panel. Use the same process to cut out the bottom panel and the top panel if a top panel is required. Take great care in processing your face frame parts so that they straight and flat, and then make sure you assemble them square and flat. Once the face frame is applied then you should have a square case but more importantly you should have a case that has a front that is in plane. A front that is in plane is necessary if you plan to mount the doors of other movable parts flush in the case. Mounting flush doors in a case that is not reasonably square and in plane can send a person "around the bend" quite quickly.

   Hope this helps,

   Ron