Why aren’t Robertson screws (the ones with a square hole) more popular? According to This Old House magazine, they can take more drive force without stripping. I’ve seen only two products that use them: Weaving looms made by a Canadian company (Le Clerc Looms), and little plastic wedges that support rain gutters (they attach to the fascia boards).
By the way, McDonald’s toys use triangular-drive screws. Most of them are made in China. Are these screws common in China, or do they use an uncommon screw so kids can’t take the toys apart?
Replies
We've been using them up here for ninety-five years now. Pretty much through the trial period. Not approporiate for Americans though; you guys stick with those Philips things, OK?
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
"Why aren't Robertson screws (the ones with a square hole) more popular? "
Why indeed? Clearly superior.
Why haven't sheet metal screws completely replaced common wood screws? Sheet metal screws are far stronger and perform better in all respects.
We are creatures of bad habit.
R
Latest innovation I've seen are torx drive screws. Haven't tried them yet but looks even better than square drives.
Rick
I never heard of TORX¯ screws, but found those and other types at http://www.lara.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?oc=bt-ip
I have always assumed that regular & Philips screws were prone to stripping because parts of the slots are shallow, providing less resistance to the drive bit. From the look of the Torx drive (at some point I acquired the bit but never had occasion to use it), the hole in the screwhead is perfectly vertical, with a flat bottom. Is this what makes it better?
DW,
TORX¯ screws seem to be used in automobiles and other mechanical applications, but I've never seen them used in woodworking. I'm sure they'd work, but they aren't that easy to find. I forgot to mention that those Spax, square-X screws are also available at Orchard Supply Hardware, though my local supplier quit carrying larged boxed quantities.
Gary
My Milwaukee router uses Torx screws to hold the interchangeable bases.
Torx screws are fantastic. I have bits that I've been using for years that have placed and removed thousands of screws, and they don't show a bit of wear. They never slip or jump out of the head of the screw. They are also extremely strong. I've taken torx screws and driven them all the way through a piece of construction lumber without it slowing down or breaking. There are also larger torx screws, called risers, that have the same torx head, but a flange around it like a built in washer. I use them for building and attaching the ledgers and structural portions on decks. Everybody around here uses them instead of lag bolts due to their strength and ease of use. I use them for everything. Anyway, enough babbling. Just thought I'd add my two cents worth.
The torq screws are the real deal. They cost more, but if you are hanging doors by yourself like I did, then they are invaluable. I love these things for the fact they can be started without a pilot hole! I wish all screws were made like this.
http://www.grkfasteners.com/
Their torx are the cat's meow. They come in multiple varieties, including the washer heads mentioned. The ones I use the most are 3 1/4" trim screws and hard as sin. Very handy in door installs. You can pop the weatherstrip loose, anchor things in, put the weatherstrip back on and no holes. Sure, nails work too, but the screw holds better and gets you deep into the framing, and if you get the shims off, you can back it out and resquare things as you go. That one matters more on patio doors. Corner anchor it, then shim, and adjust until square. Don't have to worry about trying to catch 300lbs tipping on you.
Square drive screws are superior to all the others, but then my clients used to call me when they couldn't find a driver to make their own adjustjments. So I switched to "square-X" drive screws, which can be driven with either a phillips or square driver - the latter being the best. I buy them under the Spax label from my wholesalers: like Hafele (800-423-3531) and McMurray Pacific (415-552-5500). Spax screws come in all sizes up to #14 x 3 1/2" (which I use to hang upper cabinets), and they don't snap off like drywall screws. I still use square drive pocket screws.
Gary, when my loom lost a Robertson screw, the local hardware store said my only option was to have them special-order a huge quantity. Fortunately, the Canadian manufacturer sent a replacement for free.
I think Rich R. is correct about us being creatures of bad habits. Like continuing to use the Imperial system. Wasn't it back in the 1980s when the government said we would start teaching the metric system in schools? My daughter is in second grade and is still being taught the Imperial system; metric was barely mentioned.
My husband (who works for Jaguar) says the Brits have a mixed bag, adopting some but not all metric measures. Go figure.
I've been wanting the US to go metric ever since AOL started sending me CDs every week. My plan was to make spinning wheels and bobbins by recycling CDs and other freebies, but I couldn't find a free source of axles to fit the 15mm holes.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/ carry's what the Lymes call Robertson, or square drive screws. They've got ALL kinds, plus a bunch of other interesting stuff.
Gary
I saw the finest screws I've ever seen or used at the Atlanta wood working show. They are really great. They have a star drive, it doesn't slip. The screws are strong, the treads hold well and I've never had one break. In most cases don't need a pilot hole.
Check out the website at
http://www.screw-products.com/index.htm
> ...a star drive,
Aren't those things fantastic!! I drove a 3" long screw into a solid block of oak at the demo booth at one of our trade shows. Alls I had to do is use light hand pressure straight down on the power driver. The screw went in by itself and never stripped. Even countersunk. Into the oak!
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Lymes? As in Brits? What do they know about it....Robertsons are a Canadian invention. And technically, there is supposed to be a difference between Robertson and square drive, in that Robertsons are slightly tapered, and better.....but the U.S gets square drive, because of a patent thing.
tried Spax...don't care for them, plus they are overpriced and not available in enough sizes here.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Order the Mcfeely's catalog. Lots of info there. Will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about screws and using the screws (-----ing). :)
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Ooops. I knew that Robertson were Canadian; I shouldn't use the term genericaly to refer to square drive screws, like those that come from McFeelys. I've been using square drive for maybe 17 years, since boatbuilding. I've always referred to them as Robertson, probably because those I used were Robertson.
You hand me two screws....one Robertson, one square drive....could I tell the diff? Very much doubt it, that's the honest truth. When I buy screws, I just ask for #8 x 3" particle board screws (or whatever)....square drive or Robertson, they fit the same driver,they're all a little different depending on who made them, and it's up to me to make sure they get put in right. But it does irk to see a particularly useful invention credited to brits, instead of canucks, in this case...only reason I mentioned it.
To all: I've used Torx, on metal...there are no Torx screws readily available to me for wood, so I have no experience there....I don't see an advantage to Torx though. Like I said, Spax didn't live up to the billing for me. None of the screws made to accept multiple drivers, that I've used, did as well as a dedicated screw. So I'm sticking with square drive, but I'm open to new develoements....at least in theory.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
For your purposes, I agree that you should give your clients a way to drive te screws if all they have is a Phillips driver. But Spax screws have the usual disadvantage of compromises: They'll cam out with both square and Phillips drivers.
Donald,
I've been using screws to fasten two pieces of wood together since I began building boats about 26 years ago. Although the Navy discovered that ring shanked nails hold better when fastening planks to frames, screws are sure better when repairs or alterations are necessay. I began with slotted, silicon bronze and Monel screws, running them with a bit brace - tedious work, and cam outs were common. When I found bronze Robertson screws, I thought I found screwing Nirvana (no, that's at home). But Robertson's disadvantage is that hand held drivers of different lengths are hard to find. The same is still true, and I still need to drive and back out screws by hand, so square-X drive screws are my latest screwing Nirvana (in the shop).
I use a 6-in-long, #2 (I think) square driver to run #8 by 1 1/2-in to 2-in-long Spax FH wood screws to fasten poplar nailers into the top of my base cabinets. I don't think I've ever cammed out, and I don't drill pilot holes. I use over 100 of those screws a day when assembling cabinets. I often cam out when spinning them with a properly sized phillips driver, but not with the square drive bit.
Gary
I know it's true, but it's still kind of hard to grapple with....the drivers (square drive), and screwdrivers, are so common here, it's hard to imagine them being so difficult to find there. Maybe you need to connect with a Canadian industrial supplier who can supply you with drivers and screwdrivers without charging 'exotic' prices.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Mr. Robertson, a Canadian engineer designed the square head screw about 100 years ago. At the time he also color coded the drivers for the 4 sizes of Robertson screws: Yellow, green, red, and black in ascending sizes. This screw almost became the screw of the US as well but Mr. Robertson refused to sell his company to Henry Ford so Mr. Ford refused to use his screws. So the US got "screwed" into the Philips or cross screw. Grab a box of Robertson woodscrews, pick up a #2 driver (the red one) and make life a lot easier!
Well, Adrian, square drive screw drivers just aren't commonly found at local hardware stores - not even here in the prolific Bay Area (CA). I used to order red handled #2 drivers for my customers, but that became a pain. Then I discovered Spax screws. Nuf said.
Gary
Gary-
I take back 35% of what I said and apologize to you and the makers of Spax-brand screws. The square/Phillips screws I have used are what McFeely's calls "Combo" screws. Those have cammed out for me using either type of drive (you must understand that operator proficiency is probably a factor). I have not used Spax-brand screws, but after your recommendation, I will try to find some.
Don, for what it's worth I've had the same excellent experience with Spax screws as Gary, although I'm sure he's had more. I always use them with a square driver and have never had cam-out problems. They also have great self-threading characteristics. Although they are expensive, Spax are actually my favorite screws - I always have this ridiculous thought that they are such a high quality tool it's a shame to waste them by burying them in wood.
I've just finished building a deck where I used a great many #8x3" square drive screws purchased at my local "DoItBest" affiliated building supply. For the first time, I had a problem with the square drive.
While driving into Doug fir, my driver/drill was rounding out the square drive cavity. No, it wasn't the driver rounding off, very definately the screws rounding out. Previously, when my wood was too hard or wet, the screws would simply snap from overtorquing. I've never before seen a roundout problem on square drives.
I returned them to the store and they replaced them with screws from a different batch, but I've not used enough of them for a definitive answer to the problem. I figured a batch might have gotten out with improperly hardened heads, but I can't prove that yet.
Has anybody else seen such a problem?
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Lee,
I've had the same cam out problem with SS deck screws. It goes to show you that nothing, not even square drive screws, are perfect.
Gary
Gary, it wasn't so much CAM-OUT as just destroying the square hole, turning it into a round one, with the driver still engaged in the hole.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Lee:
I had the same problem with some square head screws I bought at a "Do It Best" hardware outlet in Portland. I bought them because they were so much cheaper than the ones I usually buy. (Good life lesson -- If its a lot cheaper there is probably a reason why)
Dennis
Thanks for the info, Dennis. I'm printing out your post to show to my step-son-in-law, who just happens to be the buyer for that "DoItBest" store. Hopefully, he can resolve the problem, at least for his local employer.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
I bought some 3" square drive screws from Home Depot recently. They were lousy. They wanted to round out as you've described and in generaly were way below the quality of the square drives I've bought from McFeeley's and the Spax brand. I guess this just shows quality matters even in something as simple as a screw (ok, I can hear 12 people ready to tell me that screws aren't simple). Also shows that you can count on Home Depot to sell the cheapest version of any product because the homeowner won't know the difference.
Robertson still manufacturers their own screws and drivers.
There is a quite a quality difference with the real thing.
Try a search on Google.
Unfortunately, there are many competitors now that the patent is exhausted.
I tried Spax and like them but I wouldn't want to do a deck with them due to the price . I keep several sizes for those problem situations.
Regards
Bob
I use square drives where the screws can be seen or where strength is required. Otherwise, I use the perverbial dry wall screws. But I really dont know the square drive are so hard to find here. I only know of a couple of places that sell them locally.
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled