Replies

1. 
   Troy | Sep 10, 2006 06:54am | #1

   If your doing mortise and tenons by hand get a copy of Jim Kingshots video on doing this he has a wealth of info and tips for doing this well and quickly.

   Thanks

   Troy

1. 
   Biscardi | Sep 10, 2006 03:50pm | #2

   If you take into account the time to set up the saw and the tennon jig and make sure it is just so, there isn't much of a time difference over just doing it all by hand. If you are in a production situation where you are making 40 in a morning then that is a different thing.

2. 
   Routerman | Sep 10, 2006 04:54pm | #3

   I rout both mortice and tenons. As such, the fixturing indexes the stops, the router's travel and so on. The first mortice does take some setup time but not the second. In fact the second has no layout marks.

   The hand-cutters have their problems with layout and such but machine morticing is pretty quick, not necessarily elegant but quick. Maybe an option for you if speed is important.

   Rough router Mortice & tenon.

   ************************************

   Finer cuttings.

3. 
   EdHarrison | Sep 10, 2006 05:04pm | #4

   Hey Tom,

   Are you using a marking gauge (sometimes variously called a "pin gauge" or "mortising gauge") to lay out the width of the tenon and the width of the mortise?  A marking gauge with two adjustable pins or cutters?  That's your best friend when laying out those for handtool work. 

   There are others here (John W, B. Crunk, et al) who could cover this better than me but "A Basic Layout Kit" by H. J. Meister in The New Best of Fine Woodworking: Selecting and Using Handtools covers it pretty well.  Good luck, Ed

    

4. 
   9619 | Sep 11, 2006 01:53am | #5

   Tom,
   Your message is very interesting. Essentially it says that it takes you a long time to carefully lay out M&T joints which work out well.

   You can skip the layout if your like. It will save you a lot of time. Of coursel, the M&T joints will not work.

   There is another simpler, faster approach which you can do M&T yourself. Use dowels which are "mortise and Tenon". Go to Amazon.com and type in "dowelmax". You will find a great doweling jig. You can place dowels very precisely with no practice. I made drawers with six dowels in each corner, and they went together with ease. You can make M&T doors, M&T faceframes, and you can use dowels to attach the shelves and to attach the sides to the top and bottom of cases. You can use the Dowelmax anywhere you would use Mortise and Tenon joints.

   The Dowelmax is a bit pricey, but it works like a charm and it is VERY VERY fast. Much faster than "real" M&T work. I started using dowels, using an old Stanley doweling jig, 35 years ago, and have never had a dowel joint fail. Now that I have the fabulous Dowelmax, I could do it much better and faster, but now I use real Mortise and Tenon. Like you, it takes me significant time to do the layout work.

   You got a response from Pat Warner (routerman). Look up his website. He is a router specialist and uses it for lots of stuff. He used it for both mortise and tenons. I only use the router for mortices. I use a Tage Frid - type U-shaped mortising jig. You only have to lay out the first mortise, and then set up stops. After that, you just insert the pieces of wood, and cutting them is almost automatic.

   You can find plans for U-shaped mortising jigs lots of places.

   I hope this message if useful to you. I wanted you to know that there is no magic to M&T. It takes everyone time to do setup and markup. After a while, it gets a bit quicker. If that is not the way you want to spend your time, consider Dowelmax.

   Enjoy.
   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   Tomknixx | Sep 11, 2006 07:16am | #6

   THanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't think that purchasing the dowelmax would be in my near term budget. The jig would be a good idea. I am measuring out the mortis and then setting up stops for each individual run - rather time consuming. If I just made a jig with the stops already attached I could cut the mortises a lot faster. I will also try changing to a different marking tool. Aside from the mortises (which will be corrected with the jig) the tenons take up a ton of time. I don't have a tenoning jig (crappy table saw wont take one) so I am cutting the tenons with dado blades and setting up each cut. Because I don't have a planer each piece is a litte thicker/thinner than the previous one so I can't just set up the same cut and go at it. Some tenons would be too big while others would be too small. I am currently saving for a planer (different discussion for a different time) as I think this would greatly improve the process. If you think a different tool would be more helpful let me know. (BTY - I can't fit a real jointer in my garage so I am stuck with a #7 Sweatheart for now). Thanks
   Tom

1. 
   mufti | Sep 11, 2006 12:35pm | #7

              There is an easy way which works well. Cut your mortices through a bit of 1/8th ply or mdf laid on top of where you are cutting, with bits of scrap glued under to stop movement. Then use it to define the tennon edges, cutting outside your marks of course after marking. For accuracy use a new former for each joint, this allows for individual variations.

2. 
   9619 | Sep 11, 2006 04:03pm | #8

   Tom,
   Now I understand your problem. If you don't have precisely machined boards, then Mortise and Tenon is not really possible, even if you do a lot of neat layout. The planer is only a "thickness Planer", and it will not flatten out a board. You need a jointer to do that. To me, the planer and the jointer are a pair of tools that need each other. You can often buy them used and get a good deal. If you don't know what you are doing in making a purchase of used tools, then take along someone who is.Any tablesaw can use a tenoning jig, as long as it has a straight flat fence. The simplest tenoning jig is nothing more than two pieces of plywood glued together, (with a few screws above the blade height). One piece of plywood, say about five inches wide and about 8 or 10 inches high. Picture the 5"x10" piece of 3/4" thick plywood standing against your fence with the tall side up. Now glue another piece of 10" tall wood which is maybe 2" wide to the first piece. The 10" sides are glued together. Glued together, the two pieces look like a backwards L, if you are looking down from the ceiling. The piece to be tenoned is put in the L. The 2" piece of the L is the "Backer". You just slide this against the fence. Of course, you are better off if you attach a handle to this, and even a clamp to clamp the board to be tenoned to it. You can be even safer if you make a contraption to keep this jig riding along the fence, eg something that goes over your fence. This is all pretty simple. I would have been better off drawing this up than describing it. If I didn't explain myself, write back, and I'll draw it up for you.NEVER DO ANYTHING THAT IS OR SEEMS UNSAFE, so if this tenoning jig seems unsafe, don't use it. I made one which rides on my Biesemeyer fence. It is big and ungainly but it is safe and it works wonders, on wood that is flat and well-thicknessed.Best of luck.
   Let me know what happens.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

3. 
   pzgren | Sep 11, 2006 07:33pm | #9

   Tom,

     As Mel pointed out, you need boards of uniform thickness. Since you are doing the work by hand, with hand planes, perhaps the following will help you out in getting a more uniform thickness to your boards. Once you have uniform board thickness, cutting tenons, etc., should be much easier, requiring only one (table saw) set up, and perhaps a little shoulder-plane trimming/final fitting.

   _____

   Hand planing (rough) lumber to dimension is not hard:<!----><!----><!---->

     Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4-1/2, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder. (Or you can use wooden equivalents.)<!----><!---->

     You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper is also handy.<!----><!---->

     Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs from the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, you board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4-1/2). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc., will come from this face.<!----><!---->

     Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. You can use the #5 to plane to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. Saw to rough width, if necessary. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16 inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face, to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smoothing plane and, as necessary, the scraper. Part 6 of 6, complete.<!----><!---->

     At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces and to each other), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.<!----><!---->

     The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.<!----><!---->

     If you have a shooting board, you can use it to assist with steps 2, 3, 4, and 5.<!----><!---->

   A couple of things to keep in mind:<!----><!---->

     Keep your plane irons SHARP!!<!----><!---->

     If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.<!----><!---->

     Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.<!----><!---->

     Skewing the plane often helps to reduce tear out and makes planing easier.<!----><!---->

     Try to keep the amount of wood removed from each face roughly equal; otherwise any internal stresses present may cause the board to warp or cup again, after you have put all that work and effort into making it flat.<!----><!---->

     Expect to get a good upper body work out!<!----><!---->

     The listed sequence is not the only sequence that this can be done in, but it works quite well. <!----><!---->

   Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough-sawn lumber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned board using only hand-powered tools.

   _____Tschüß!

   Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen!

   James

1. 
   Tomknixx | Sep 11, 2006 09:33pm | #10

   I am going to try and improve my stock preperation as the main action item to improve the tenon making. I agree that the planer only makes things uniform thickness. However, I have been able to use planes, a good square and a straight edge to get flat boards. I can even accomplish this on both sides of the board. However, many times the board isn't a uniform thickness (will have to work on the planing technique). This is where I think the planer would help out. Also, I sometimes don't plane both sides because of work that goes into this process. (I read this was a time saving technique used a few hundred years ago). However, that also contributes to the uniform thickness problem. Hopefully, I will be purchasing the planer in the next few months. Definitely before the next project. I would love a jointer but right now I am up against improssible money/space situations. THe tenoning jig was on my list of things to make but I apparently forgot. Obviously, making mortises and tenons doesn't remind me to make mortis and tenon jigs. Thanks
   TOm

1. 
   daddyman105 | Sep 11, 2006 10:29pm | #11

   I've been doing some begining work with M&T joints lately also.  I read somewhere (probably here) that one of the secrets to layout was to register all measurements off one side.  I've tried it and it helps where your handplanning skills are a little weak (as are mine).

   I plane the good face flat and true, plane one edge straight and square and then make all my layouts off these faces.  Any machine work is also registered off these faces. 

   It helps.

5. 
   dherzig | Sep 12, 2006 12:47am | #12

   I would support the idea of looking at the video by Jim Kingshott from Tools for Working Wood and/or the DVD by Bob Cosman from Lee-Nielsen. Both are excellent in how to go from rough to smooth with hand tools and then how to do M&T by hand. I have personally gone to Beadlock as a fast way to do this. Not only can I get the shoulders absolutely flat and square but I only have to measure between each of the pieces without adjusting for tenon size.