Replies

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jul 07, 2003 11:26am | #1

   Hillen,

   The company you refer to are renowned for customer service. 

   Knowing you have confidence in the accuracy of an engineer's square, have you checked that your square is "square" (using any one of the standard tests) and also called their toll free number and asked them if this deviation from square meets their tolerances.  If the plane is tapered out of square and beyond their tolerances, I'm sure that they'd replace it without a moment's hesitation.  This represents a massive quality error on their part if the plane is out of square and beat numerous inspections.  Unlike this company and their reputation for quality.

   I was going to ask that, in the interests of fairness to LN, would you consider temporarily deleting your post unless/until you have a poor experience with their customer service.  Then I realised that this post provides a counter-view, so I changed tone and put this up as an alternate point of view.

   3 thou = 0.08mm per 25mm - I doubt this would worry me wrt glue line, but I don't accept it either when I'm jointing edges - no visible light and 90 degree to face is my standard.

   Let us know how you got on.

   eddie

1. 
   Telemike | Jul 08, 2003 07:56am | #5

   I can't agree that one should not post until they've been through the hoop with customer service.  The product should be right the first time and every time when you're paying such a high price for them.  When I'm shopping at KMart, I expect issues.  When I go to a yuppie high-price high-end firm, I expect the product to be right the first time!  If the company has let QC slip, this forum is a great place to give them a little spanking hoping that they'll get the message and clean up their act!

   I've been making chips and sawdust for over 30 years.  Back then, you could go to Sears or to a small number of industrial suppliers to get tools.  Esoteric tools were even harder to get.  Now, there are high end suppliers of tools that border on art (bridge city - oh, to be rich!), lots of brands in the middle, and an avalance of home depot specials.  There is a cresting wave of wood workers and everyone's tool business is booming.  It's easy to let quality slip and volume win out. 

   Post your experiences here, like I did with Lee Valley, and hope that these basically very good companies will look inwards and not let quality slip to meet the volume demands of a growing market.

2. 
   AlanTurner | Jul 07, 2003 01:25pm | #2

   I have had this same plane for many years.  About two years ago, I wanted to make use of it in a shooting board, and found, as you did, that it was not quite square.  I called L-N, and they invited me to send it back for regrinding.  They said they were glad to do this for anyone who wnated to use it in a shooting board situation.  So, I returned it, and had it back within a week, dead on.  No charge, of course, and no complaint that I was being picky.  Great company.  Give them a call.  I'll bet you find they offer you the same free service that I got.  Good luck.

   Alan

3. 
   Andrew | Jul 08, 2003 01:28am | #3

   I take it that your engineers square is one like you can get at lee valley. I keep one of them in my shop, but I also realize that they are not perfect. The tolerance for them is .001" per inch, and when I went to a buddy's machine shop and checked it against his master square I wasn't all that surprised to see it out of square by .005.

   the one thing you have to realize is that .005 is approaching the limit of woodworking precision, and there are lots of other sources of error that will unknowingly throw any attempts at super precision out of whack. the first is dust. it gets everywhere in a wood shop, and if I need to do critical setups, I make sure everything is super clean to keep errors to a minimum. the second is that machine surfaces and the wood itself is not perfectly flat, so at best, expect at least a few thou of error to account for that. lastly, wood moves, so those edges that you spent so much time getting perfect can easily be ruined if the board decides to warp even just a bit.

4. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 08, 2003 07:43am | #4

   Hillen

      I am going to agree with eddie and Andrew. I just checked my engineers square and it's off. I had my BIL (machinist) check all my engineer, framing and combo squares. I threw the two framing squares away. The engineers square was off .003. The closest I came to square was a Stanley yellow handle combination square at .001. $12..

      I am currently shopping for a square square. I will look at the Incra and Starrett. I had a bad dream that the original square was not square and everything else that was made from it followed suit. ha..ha..

      I bet LN will make it right if it is out of square.

   Luck...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   jhh | Jul 08, 2003 08:15pm | #6

   Thanks all for the helpful responses.  My main concern was that I'd been stuck with a lemon.  However, these posts tell me that my LN plane is not off by an unusual amount; and if I want it fixed, LN will do so.  Good enough for me.

   On the squares, I have indeed checked the acuracy of my squares.  Of the two "engineers squares" I bought from Lee Valley, one was discracefully out of whack (unfortunately, it was only long after I'd bought it that I discovered the problem, then I tried unsuccessfully to fix it, so I've never bothered to try to return it), the other was very square, as is my Starret combo scquare.  I checked them all by laying them up against a straight board, scribing the line, then flipping the square and comparing the parralelisim of the new line.

   I'd actually thought about calling LN first, but, as some one else in the chain had correctly suggested, I wanted to first confirm I wasn't being overly picky.  And, bottom line, this experience hasn't soured me on LN products.  On the contrary, the quality of their products has been eye opening.  My whole attitude towards hand tools has changed since my wife bought me my first LN - a #5 that I look for excuses to use.  To my wife's continuing consternation, I regularly surf their site to daydream.  (Lastly, I've bought my last two LNs from Fine Tool Journal, who sell these planes at a slight discount - I think you need to ask fro the price list - with no shipping charges and no tax for us CA residents - the savings add up!)

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 09, 2003 05:50am | #7

   Hillen

      Thanks for the tip on the Starrett combo. I had been looking at it. As good as Starretts reputation is, I wondered if the combo was truly square as I am gun-shy of all squares anymore. ha..ha.. Incra has some smaller engineer squares that they advertise as being right on. I think I need to borrow a machinist square from my BIL to take and check them on the shelf. I'm desperate to get something square I can count on without having to go to a really high dollar precision machinist square. The Stanley surprised me with how close it came for $12. I had read a square review months ago in FWW that tipped me to it being a value.

   Have a good evening an dream on... that doesn't cost a cent. <G>

   sarge..jt

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Jul 09, 2003 08:35pm | #10

   Sarge,

   Be assured that the Starrett is top of the line, and really is professional grade.  (I can't help laughing every time I hear those stupid commercials.)  It's the brand machinists have relied on for accuracy and durability for decades.  Machined to .00001" (yes, one one hundred thousandth of an inch) accuracy.

   If you have a Stanley that's dead-on, for heaven's sake keep it and be careful not to bump it.  Why pay big bucks if a few bucks will do the job? 

   (BTW, watch Ebay.  I bought a new Starretts with all three heads for $90 from a guy in Canada.)

   Jeff

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jul 10, 2003 03:53am | #11

   Jeff

      Thanks for the note on Starrett. It really startled me to find most squares not square. The Stanley was the closest I had to being there. I don't have any serious high dollar squares, so I can't make a call on them yet. Just go on what I hear from you guys that do.

      I had a Norton framing square I used to double check the front and rear blade on my TS with the fence. Not only was it out of square, the measurements at 20" were 1/4" off. Now, I can understand a slight variation from one measuring device to another, but 1/4" is a ton to come up short on a wide panel.

      Yep, I'll keep the Stanley but would like something dead on to check 90* degrees an one flat to check fences and tables. I like the Starrett 24" combo, but it's $239. This ole "po boy" is proabaly not going there unless that single lotto ticket hits paydirt. ha..ha..

   Evening...

   sarge..jt

2. 
   Andrew | Jul 09, 2003 07:32pm | #8

   scribing lines and flipping the square over will give you a general idea as to how square the square is, but if you have a dial indicator, there is a far more precise way to do it. You'll also need some parallel blocks, a dowel pin (straight shank router bit would also work) and a surface plate (any flat surface will be ok).

   so here's what you do. set up your parallel blocks on the surface plate so that you have a bridge like structure. the indicator sits on top of this bridge, and the dowel pin is placed against the front of the indicator base.

   to use the setup you bring the square so that the bottom of the beam is touching the dowel pin and the top is in contact with the tip of the indicator. then you zero the dial on the indicator and flip the square around so the indicator will now be touching the inside edge of the beam. you divide the reading by 2 and this will tell you exactly how many thou your square is out. this is one method that some machine shops use to calibrate their squares. as you can tell, this is coming from my machinist side, but hopefully some will find this interesting.

5. 
   DanClermont | Jul 09, 2003 08:07pm | #9

   Hi Hillen,

   The LN 60 1/2R are not ground square to the sole. I know that for a fact because I bought one of three LN 60 1/2R's that Rob Cosman (canadian LN Rep) had as a one of.

   I am sure if you called LN they would ground the sole square to the sides for no additional charge. My plane was the regular $150US

   The LN 60 1/2R and LN 62 Low angle jacke ARE ground square to the sole.

   Good Luck,
   Dan Clermont