I have cherry plywood in which I have pre-stain conditioned and stained. I lightly sanded the plywood, applied the pre-stain and then sanded down the raised grain. I stained (Woodsong Stain) the plywood by wiping in on, letting it sit for about 15 minutes and then throughly wiping it off. The stained plywood dried in my shop for about a week.
While brushing on the lacquer (Minwax Lacquer) the stain just wiped off. Of course this happened most severly directly in the middle of the piece I’m building. On the other pieces, the stain pretty consistently seems to come off onto my brush but not as severely. Even so, I’m having to brush with great care so that the stain doesn’t completely wipe off down to the wood.
The photos are of the spot the stain came off, the stain on the brush, the stain in the lacquer thinner and a side and back view.
The amount of stain on the brush is not indicative of the amount of stain coming off, this photo is after I’ve cleaned the brush several times.
My questions are:
Why is this happening?
What can I do to prevent it from happening?
How long will it take for me to stop crying?
Thanks for any help or comments!
Replies
oil, grease, slice of pizza
I know someone is going to mention that it looks like the wood has had a placed a slice of pizza on the wood and the stain was not able to penetrate but the wood was clean, dry and free of pizza grease.
Traditional Minwax stains use boiled linseed oil as a binder to fix the pigment to the wood surface. Once the blo is cured, the stain is pretty securely held in place. It sounds as if the solvent in your varnish is softening the binder in your stain; once softened, the friction of a brush will drag the pigment around.
The product descriptions I found for Woodsong Stain didn't specifically say it had to be topcoated via sprayer, but seemed to imply such. In that case, the next coat would cover and bind the pigment in place. If the stain is ready to cover with sealer or finish in only 30-60 minutes I would expect minimal binding within the stain itself.
You might check with the manufacturer to see if it recommends brushing the varnish you're using over their stain, and if so how long after applying the stain.
Thanks for your quick and concise reply.
Excellent point, it does seem that my varnish is softening the binder in my stain.
It would seem that any stain or lacquer would allow for enough of a binder that the lacquer wouldn't strip the stain off of the wood. Even when spraying, I would think that any sort of pigment mixing into and coloring an otherwise clear lacquer would not be satisfactory.
I'm unsure of whom I should be most disappointed in, myself for not doing even more test samples than I did, Woodsong for not mentioning on their label that "thou shalt not brush on lacquer", or my stain salesman of whom I explained my finishing process and didn't warn me. I suppose I should be most disappointed in myself. Lord knows my customer is, of which stopped by for a visit today to check out his new computer server cabinet that I was supposed to have delivered yesterday.
Alright, enough whining on my part.
Secondary question:
Does this sort of thing happen often? Have you heard of this problem before? I have never had this problem before, although I've also never used Woodsong stain before. What I'm doing here is looking for a scapegoat.
Is there some labeling that I should be aware of? in regards to the stain binder compatibility with a varnish (blo vs ?)
Stain product info. from Manufacturer
I'm posting this so that if anyone has the gumption to actually read it and see if there is a specific point that I could have missed or should look for the second time around.
The only thing that I did that is not consistent with the directions are that I used a pre-stain conditioner.
Could a pre-stain condition decrease the ability of a stain to bind to wood?
The problem stems from using the wrong lacquer topcoat. Your stain is a lacquer based stain. You would think that would mean lacquer was a suitable topcoat, but that's only partially right. Remember that lacquer alway redissolves, to a degree, the lacquer below it--it's called burning in. But, with the brushing lacquer, not only do you get lots of burn in from the slower evaporating thinner, but you also have the mechanical action of the brush. M.L. Campbell is a commercial brand, they would never expect the topcoat lacquer to be brush on lacquer. Sprayed lacquer flashes off much more quickly, letting any binder for the stain that was redissolved to dry in place without being brushed away.
Where from here. Remove the stain and lacquer with lacquer thinner. You can't sand much if any, since you are using plywood. Then, if you were happy with the coloration from the stain before you applied the brushing varnish you can use the same stain product. I would use the ML 'Campbell pre-stain rather than another brand. Staying with-in a system is best.
I presume that since you used brushing lacquer that you lack spray facilities. That means your top coat should not be a lacquer. You have a wide range of choices. You could use shellac, a waterborne topcoat (which would be roughly similar to the lacquer in protective qualities) or you could use a wiping varnish, which would be significantly more protective than lacquer.
use diff types
Well I'll put m2cw in here and it's the way I've been taught and it works for me. Preconditioners would not cause an issue just help control blotching. I was taught you don't use the same vehicle type from color to top coat. What I mean by that is if you use an oil based stain and you apply an oil based topcoat and in your case brushing it on, you will dislove the color and it will pick it up. Two ways to avoid. Either mix they types (oil over water or vise versa) or spray a coat of 1/2 lb shellac over it to but a barrier between the two if oil top coat over oil stain. For this very reason I prefer WB dyes for color and an OB top coat. Although with the new gov't regs oil based anything will be a thing of the past in a few years it will all be WB. Good luck.
Finish coat over stain
I have a similar question. I have been creating interior finish work (window frames, mantel, etc) and finishing them with a water-based TransTint stain, then a Min-Wax stain and finishing up with three sprayed on top coats of Hydrocote Polyshield a water based aliphatic polyurethane. The color is spectacular but I am wondering about longevity. Hydrocote suggests not using an solvent-based pigmented wiping stain because the oils may affect top-coat adhesion. Hydrocote also suggests that should it be necessary to use oil-based stains they should not be allowed to dry over 24 hours since the oils polymerize thus creating a possible adhesion issur. In using my chosen finish approach I have noticed that, where I do get some rund in the first topcoat the clear polyurethane has taken on some of the color of the stain which would suggest to me that the stain coat and top coat are adhering. Since I don't want to see the finish coat peeling off at some future time I am thinking about changing to a water-based wiping stain. My question is: will the water-based wiping stain interfere with the water-based tint stain? I don't want the results to become muddy.
Any suggestions, opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks
test test test
To be sure do a test piece. I always do that to see how the wood will react. Use a piece of scrap from the piece you made. WB dye and wb stain i'm not sure why you want both but if both are water they will bleed together I don't know about the adheasion issues because i'm not familiar with the product. Call the mfg of the finish and ask. If your top coat is water then you could go with an alcahol dye, or just seal between coats to keep the bleeding in check. Again thats just my opinion. If you want a pro's advise, I'd call Jeff Jewette (pardon the sp) at homestead finishes. He wrote the taunton book on finishing and was a great help to me and quite personalbe. Give him a call.
Yes, the waterborne wiping stain would lift the TransTint dye. Particularly because of the mechanical action of wiping. A sprayed finsh does this to a much smaller degree.
I'm confused. What does hydrocoat mean when it says solvent based stains. In my mind this means the lacquer based stains such as that used by the O.P. and Behlen 15 minute stain. Oil based stains, which thin with mineral sprits for ease of application, but have pigments held in place with a binder that is either a thin varnish, oil, or oil/varnish mix. These oil based stains cure, and are no longer soluble in mineral spirits, so I wouldn't call them solvent based.. Since the stain isn't soluble in the mineral spirits then an oil based top coat is OK over fully cured oil based stain. (The binder is often fairly weak and does sometimes let pigment mix with the first coat of a top coat. If this is troublesome in the particular application, a sprayed sealer such as Zinsser aerosol shellac,which is dewaxed, would prevent the problem.)
As long as the stained surface isn't glossy I can't imagine that the Hydrocote product wouldn't adhere to fully cured oil based pigmented stain. It wouldn't bond chemically, but if the surface has sufficient tooth should the topcoat should adhere mechanically. I suppose it is possible that over partially cured stain they can get some degree of chemical cross-linking.
It's worth noting that TransTint isn't a water based dye. It is a concentrate that can be thinned by water, alcohol, or lacquer thinner, or used as a toner in shellac, waterborne finishes, or lacquers. If applied as a dye it remains soluble in all of the solvents and would be subject ot lifting by any of them. TransFast is a powdered watersoluble dye that can be called waterbased. It's your best choice for dying bare wood. I like powered watersoluble dye under an oil based wiping stain.
I had a similar experience lately with different products. I used a minwax stain, flowed on a coat, wiped the excess completely. A day or two later, I applied another coat of stain, same way. Several days later, the stain started lifting while brushing on a poly top coat, not as bad as yours but obviously noticeable. Here's my take on what happened.
Minwax stain has a sealer in it, not all oil based stains do. I think the first applcation sealed the wood enough so the second application sat on top of the first, not penetrating the lumber very well. Solvents in the top coat lifted the stain. In your case, the pre-stain conditioner is a sealer. Typically, you treat conditioner the same as stain. Flow on a coat, wipe excess completely then stain within two hours, directions are on the can. Oil based conditioners should not be used with water based stains, and vice versa. If you left much conditioner on and waited more than two hours, the effectiveness of the conditioner reducing blotch will be diminished and you will be trying to stain a sealed surface. More so with less porous wood species. If this is the case, most common solvents used in top coats will lift the stain. Lacquer thinner being one of the more powerful at disolving. Extra brush strokes when applying, along with a full wet coat, create the perfect conditions to lift stain that hasn't penetrated the wood well.
I think you need to remove the existing finish with a methylene chloride stripper and start over on that side. It shouldn't remove all the stain but it might, given the sealer/conditioner. Once you get it looking good, an areosol spray may be the way to go, rather than a brush to, at least, get it sealed. That was the first time I've had stain come right up with a simple brush stroke and I've been finishing for many years. I'm making an educated guess on what caused the issues but it's the only thing that makes sense.
Synopsis, Lessons Learned, Solution, Results
First off, thanks everyone for your informative and expert advice.
The synopsis is that my problem arose from using what I have found out to be a water based pre-stain conditioner, and oil based stain. The stain was unable to penetrate the wood due to the water based p-sc, therefore when I brushed on the oil based lacquer it reactived(?) the stain and causing to lift off the surface of the wood and come off when brushing on the lacquer.
The lesson I learned is that I should read the labels more carefully on the products I purchase and more importantly I should stay within the range of products for a single manufacturer.
My solution to the problem was that I stripped off all the existing lacquer and stain down to the bare wood with lacquer thinner. I then lightly sanded the bare wood and reapplied the stain. I thoroughly wiped off the stain when wet and once more when dry. The lacquer and sanding, I believe, removed most of of p-sc and enable the stain to penetrate into the wood.
I then purchased lacquer from the same manufacturer of the stain, and a spray gun. I finished the problem piece of furniture with the spray gun.
The results of everyones advice was a beautiful finish with no problems or concerns with the stain lifting off the surface of the wood. If I'm able I will post some pictures of the newly finished piece.
Once again, thanks for all ya'lls help.
Pic
Finished result.
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