Replies

1. 
   lwj2 | Mar 10, 2005 03:10am | #1

   Built a table from a kit a decade or so ago, as I recall, I used two coats of 2# cut shellac before staining.

   Regards,

   Leon Jester
2. 
   desertrat | Mar 10, 2005 03:59am | #2

   You're not sanding well enough.  Sand to at least 220 and preferable to 320, then use a 1# wash coat of clear/blonde shellac, sand and then stain with your choice of stain.  Gel stain works pretty good, but good ole oil stain works well also.

   Let dry thourghly, at least one day, then coat again with 1# shellac and top finish.

   Do it all the time with alder and seldom if ever have problems.

3. 
   notDusty | Mar 10, 2005 06:19pm | #3

               jc ,

    Alder does have a tendency to blotch especially on darker stains. The grain seems to switch often contributing to the blotchiness problem . I simply won't stain much darker than say Fruitwood on Alder . I have never used a pre stain sealer , but have heard they do work in some cases . I have been using the Old Masters brand of stains for the last 10 or 12 years and am completely happy . For the most part I get no bleed back or re appearing spots of color that don't want to go away with this brand.It is very forgiving. For me personally I used a Gel stain one time and promised myself I would never use it again. If you had little or no detail like a flat surface then the gel is probably fine but I had a difficult time in the areas of detail to get the stain wiped on evenly. In all fairness to the product the gel stain did produce beautiful colors but for me was too difficult to get evenly coated , perhaps like most things trial and error and getting used to a product will help the results.

                 good    luck     dusty

1. 
   Ribeye | Mar 23, 2005 11:20am | #8

   I have been using Olympia Antique Maple Gel Stain on Alder for over the past year.  (See the results on the web site given in the sig line at the end.)

   The stain performs well and can take multiple applications in the areas that really need it. The end results are (to my eye) far more than pleasant when compared to Minwax gel stain.

   I have also used a Minwax gel stain (cherry) on some Spruce boxes -- it's really tough to tell the difference between the two stains!

   The Minwax stain cost $6/qt *more* than the Olympia stain, but it's really hard to tell the difference between the two products when two boards are joined together side by side -- but the difference in using the two products is simply Tremendous!!

   The Olympia product works as a hand-rubbed product; the Minwax is like painting with pudding ‡-{ !!

   The Minwax does not really "soak in" to stain. It is more of a matter of adding more (and more) of a top coat to get any "color depth"; and that's something I *don't* enjoy doing :-( 

   Especially at six bucks per quart less, I like the Olympia product a whole lot more -- but then your Smileage might very well vary :-)-- Steve

   Enjoy life & do well by it;

   it might well be the only chance you get.

   http://www.ApacheTrail.com/ww/

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 25, 2005 11:35am | #11

   " the Minwax is like painting with pudding "  Well put!  I'm going to try the Olympic on my next alder project.

   Do you do a wash-coat of shellac first?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

4. 
   forestgirl | Mar 10, 2005 07:26pm | #4

   You can get Barley's gel stain at Jeff Jewitt's site, Homestead Finishing.  I made a display case awhile back with alder and stained it using a medium walnut gel stain.  It turned out beautifully.  Follow directions above for sanding and washcoats.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Sancho | Mar 22, 2005 05:26pm | #5

   I just built a nice vaniety out of alder (love that wood) and stained it with a light cherry w/b stain came out nice..... sparayed a w/b semi poly over it...

   I use enduro coat from

   http://www.compliantspraysystems.com 

    

   Buck Construction 

      Artistry in Carpentry

           Pgh, PA

    

          

    

    

    

    

                                 ....                                                                                                     

1. 
   adastra | Mar 22, 2005 05:54pm | #6

   I'm thinking about switching to Enduro from Target's USL waterbase.Can you give me some feedback on that product.Grain-raising, dry-time, flow-out, clarity, color?Thanks,

1. 
   Sancho | Mar 25, 2005 03:50am | #9

   Well

   Grain-raising

   All w/b will raise the grain. For me it depends on the wood species and whether or not its ply or solid. Alder for example I I didnt have a problem, birch ply for the drawers yea I had to wet it and lightly sand.

   dry-time

   Well it depends on the temp... I have used their stain and then able to use their sanding sealer in less than a hour when the weather is roughly 65-70 degrees.. cooler well I take my time let it dry thouroghly. But I have been able to stain, seal and spray 2 top coats in a hour half time. But it depends on the weather.

   flow-out

   It is made for spraying with a hvlp..I never had a problem. But when its cool Ill take the spray guns cup and set it in a larger bucket of hot water and stired the finish so it would warm..when I do this never a prob.

   clarity

   Its great. they make so many different sheens for example if I want to keep the woods natural color, I would use a ultra flat which gives it its natural color and no shine like a semi gloss. 

   color

   well the stauin is a w/b stain so your not going to have the same grain effect as a o/b stain. though I have used a o/b stain and sprayed over it after using the sealer with enduro and had no problems..just make sure its good and dry...

   But if I want the o/b effect and a w/b stain Ill use a amber tinted poly that they make and it gives it a o/b like color but  remember the grain issue with a w/b stain...

   they also make a ambertinted sanding sealer..i havent used it yet but they make it.

   Ive also used a white poly..excellent coverage and finish as long as you use a white undercote sealer..comes out like melanmine....

   they make diefferent tinted enamels for spraying in a lot of colors. I m going to be spraying a existing vaniety in their jade color soon. Since its in a bath they make a additive to help with moisture and abrasion resistance. Ill let ya know if you want how they turn out.

   notice I said I only spray it. It is made for spraying..but they sell a additive in case you want to brush..I havent used that either

   hope this helps.... Buck Construction  View Image

      Artistry in Carpentry

           Pgh, PA

1. 
   adastra | Mar 25, 2005 06:06am | #10

   Hey Ron, thanks for the information.Noticed the Jayhawk, I'm in Lawrence; lifelong Kansan which is where the Ad Astra comes in. The mood is grim in Larryville with the early exit of KU.I'll probably give the Enduro a go, just to try it out. FWW reviewed it a long time ago and they reported it the best for keeping the grain down. But its been so long I don't know if the comparison is still valid.Used Target Ultima on red oak and it really puffed up the details, but it was my first time spraying waterbase and I think I didn't prep it quite right. Sprayed solvent for a few years so I'm trying to get used to a new routine.Hey you know we are about to try to discredit evolution again here in the Wheat State. They're even going to have another Scopes-like trial. Idiots.Thanks again

2. 
   Sancho | Mar 25, 2005 05:41pm | #12

   Im not in Kan. Im in So Cal...theres a guy at BT Tav who uses this tag line along with another guy Jeff Buck...the latest joke over there is useing other peoples tag lines (the one you like)

   try this site it sells only enduro products and has contact info for advice on using the product. I also bought my spray gun from them. They can help you set up your gun N&N ect for the best results using enduro...

   they even have one day seminars in staining and finishing using enduro... not to mention all the different stains, enamels ,finishes ,sheens ect additives ect

   http://www.compliantspraysystems.com  these people deal exclusively with enduro... there are other sites better with finishing knowledge but just enduro products this site has everything in their product line.Buck Construction  View Image

      Artistry in Carpentry

           Pgh, PA

5. 
   Tao | Mar 23, 2005 04:56am | #7

   I've been getting consistently blotch-free finishes on maple, birch and alder for 15 years.  Here's how I do it.

   First, I use a liquid metallized dye stain like TransTint, and mix it so I get the intensity of color that I want by spraying one "just wet" pass, wiping any overlaps or runs immediatley.  This cannot obscure the grain, because it is totally transparent.  It evens out the color and establishes the lightest tones that will be seen in the finished product.  It does sort of flatten the look by reducing contrast, so....

   The next step is to spray on a "just wet" coat of pigmented stain, and again wipe immediately.  This deepens the color and brings out the grain in the wood.  You can alter your technique to get different degrees of opacity, but what I have described above gives a clear, deep look to the wood.  Theres just enough pigment left on the surface to bring out the grain, not to muudy the look up.

   There's no need to sand alder past 150 grit.  Sanding further is like trying to polish a sponge; the material itself is coarse enough in texture that further sanding can't improve anything.

   Limiting the amount of stain applied to a surface leaves nothing to soak in and blotch, and I have found this faster, easier, and more effective than any wash coats or conditioners.  I spray all my stains for the speed and control it gives me, but the same results can be obtained by hand application.

   MIchael R