Replies

1. 
   BG | Dec 15, 2002 08:45pm | #1

   Ray,

   I had no problem staining ash with blotching most of the time taking it to 400 grit....but that is most of the time.  To answer your question, use a 1lb cut of shellac.  I would suggest the premixed stuff, it has a 3 year shelf life, and the instructions on the can will tell you how to achieve a 1lb cut. 

2. 
   forestgirl | Dec 15, 2002 08:47pm | #2

   You might be needing a wash coat of shellac before you put on the first stain.  I'd recommend Bullseye's Seal Coat -- a dewaxed shellac, 3-year shelf life, 2# cut I think.  Highly recommended by M. Dresdner, and I've used it and liked it, for whatever that's worth, LOL.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 15, 2002 09:47pm | #3

   Rayfarrier - ash does not blotch when stained so if you have uneven coloring I'm guessing you got uneven coverage with the stain - possibly it was dry in spots when you wiped the excess. Or, you may have sanded the wood too smooth in areas and the stain didn't color it evenly.

   For dense hardwoods like ash or oak, sanding to 150 grit is plenty smooth before staining. A penetrating oil-base stain like Minwax or Benjamin Moore colors the wood nicely.

   There is no need to use a sealer before staining or between coats of stain with ash. Personally, I would remove the stain that on the piece now and re-sand the wood ensuring I used fresh 150 grit sandpaper just before applying the stain. Then apply a coat of stain in accordance with the directions on the can. Once that coat of stain cures odor free, you can wipe another coat of stain over it without first sealing for added color.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Splintie | Dec 15, 2002 10:37pm | #4

   A penetrating oil-base stain like Minwax or Benjamin Moore colors the wood nicely.

   Paul, i second everything about sanding and method of staining ash except this: i haven't used the BM stains, but i find the Minwax to be boring and muddy. Last summer, i was turned on to McCloskey Tungseal stains and they are way, way prettier than the Minwax, which would seem to be properly called a pigmented stainn, marketing hype on the can ("Penetrates, Stains, and Seals") to the side. McCloskey gives a very clear, rich, and deep translucent color for a pigmented stain compared to others i've tried. I also find McC easier to apply evenly without the tendency to flash quickly that Minwax stain has. I rather dislike the idea of staining wood at all, but this is almost painless.

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 16, 2002 12:59am | #5

   Splintie - From what I've seen of the Minwax penetrating stains, the "muddy look" depends on the color you choose. I don't care for their "cherry" at all, but have had good luck with the rest of the colors. I haven't used the McCloskey stains, but your experience with them sounds like they work well.

   Minwax and Benjamin Moore both use a combination of oil dyes and pigments in their stains. The lighter Minwax colors are just dye and the darker colors have a small percentage of pigments - except for the "Jacobean" that uses gilsonite for the coloring.

   Whenever possible, I use fast drying stains like the ones from ML Campbell or woodfinishingsupplies.com. These stains use a type of pigment that colors the wood very well without the muddy look. When I need a darker color than the stain provides on its own, I'll dye the wood then apply the stain.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Splintie | Dec 16, 2002 01:55am | #6

   Here's a scan of the difference in the Minwax Dark Walnut (L) and the McC Antique Walnut (R)--i was aiming for the darkest brown in each brand. Both red oak sanded to 120.

   Do you have to work very fast to avoid overlap doing larger areas with the fast-drying stains? Do you use them bec you have to move items through your shop very quickly, or are they more compatible with your topcoats? The Tungseal takes a bit longer to dry than Minwax did, but it does have the advantage of being idiot-proof and i still lacquer it the same day.  I'm still always up for a better plan, though.

   I'm using my Minwax up by collecting the gunk in the bottom to color Bondo for repairs. I guess i could have used gilsonite...interesting stuff. Thanks.

   
1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 16, 2002 04:55am | #8

   Splintie - in your photo, the McCloskeys sample looks much nicer. I don't have any pictures of Minwax in one of the dark brown colors, the closest I have are some pieces in Red Mahogany like this bookcase - http://www.boomspeed.com/firstfinish/BookcaseRedMahog.jpg - I use Minwax and similar stains outside the recommended guidelines to get a good match with the color sample boards you find at the store.

   Depending on the brand, the fast drying stains can be easy to work with. I apply them with a spray gun for speed and even coverage then wipe the excess. I have stained some pretty large multi-opening cabinets before wiping and had no difficulty with the stain drying too fast. One of the strongest characteristics of these stains is their ability to color a wide variety of wood very well. Blotching is greatly reduced or eliminated, and tight grain wood like maple develops good color (especially with the dye and stain combination). They are ready for clear coating in an hour and that does help speed up the process.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

2. 
   Splintie | Dec 16, 2002 08:39am | #9

   Thanks for the explanation on application of the fast drying stains; i hadn't considered spraying them since i don't typically do large pieces, but i'm considering trying it the next time i have 50-100 lazy susans to stain. 

   Now i'm wondering what the advantages are to your using a dye under a stain compared to multiple coats of stain if you want a darker color? Or do you mix colors, e.g. a red dye under a brown stain? I googled some, but couldn't find any reason, only the method. Found this good finishing site, though...

   http://alan.net/prg/index.html

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Dec 17, 2002 01:14am | #10

   Splintie - Dave McFee has a demonstration of the dye/stain combination on his web site - http://www.macfee.com/usingdyes.htm

   The dye establishes a base color without obscuring the wood with pigment and the wiping stain builds on that color. You get a lot of color very quickly with the dye/stain combination. The color of the dye adds to the color of the stain, so some interesting combinations are often used. On the cover of the ML Campbell stain chart, they show a picture of a cherry door with a pretty bright orange dye base followed by a dark red mahogany wiping stain. The color is deep and even.

   The archives at "The Groop" professional refinishing website has some interesting material (and a lot of not so interesting information). This is an article on a multi-step manufaturer's furniture finishing schedule from their archives - http://alan.net/prgfeat/dsfacfin.html - It gives a detailed look at all the steps that can be included in a finish to get even, deep coloring.

   I think you'll enjoy the difference spraying the stain makes next time you do a production run. You can "wet" 5-10 items, wipe them quickly, and repeat until done.Paul

   F'burg, VA

4. 
   Splintie | Dec 17, 2002 09:33am | #11

   Thanks for the links; esp the first one clarified the distinctive uses of dyes and pigments very well. I usually use exotics for all the color in my palette so i originally felt odd staining walnut with walnut stain for some sculpture bases, but the look was so much richer that the "real" wood that i loosened my figurative tie and decided Mother Nature could use a push. My real interest in dyes is more in making woods contrast than blend, so i'm just starting to play with unnatural colors. I've lately seen some nice effects on quilted maple with fabric dyes (teal and fuschia), but i'm not sure how colorfast they will be without a mordant.

4. 
   vacabby | Dec 16, 2002 03:04am | #7

   Ash typically takes stain easily.   However, it is a wood that does not require an abundance of sanding.   150 or 180 grit maximum.   Sounds like an absorbtion issue where the sanding in not consistant and all surface pores are not in the same condition.   Sealers are not usually needed on ash and shellacking between coats probably would solve your inconsistant coloring issue.   This is a common issue with this type of wood.