I built a fireplace mantel and over mantel out of poplar. It has panels made with a panel molding of poplar also but I used Birch plywood for the panel. I am staining it (I know should have used a different wood, but money tight). What is the best method to stain the mantel and panels to match and look more like an expensive wood or nice. Also what is a good finish. I am thinking spray lacquer.
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Replies
For both the woods you mentioned, it is difficult to get a stain to penetrate if you sand with too fine a grit. For these two woods I usually stop at 120 or 150 grit. I try the stain and if it doesn't sink in then I go back a grit. I have never used a water based stain so my experience is based on oil stains such as Zar, Minwax, Sherwin Williams, etc. The local cabinet shop uses a stain containing xylene and tolunol and traces of benzene (per info on container) and their stains really penetrate. They are not available to the average Joe and come in 5 gal cans. I have purchased some maple stain from this cabinet shop for a bed I made several years ago, Works great with 220 grit finish sand. You may want to check out a local cabinet shop to see what they use on these wood and they may sell you some if you find the color you are looking for.
thanks. I will give it a try. I am leaning towards an oil base zar stain. Besides the stain suggestion and sanding any tips on applying the stain. Technique? Coats?
I've had a lot of trouble getting birch ply to accept enough stain to achieve a darker finish. I'd suggest a dye like transtint or other non grain raising variety. Be carefull though, poplar will soak either dye or stain up a whole lot more than the birch.
Aniline dyes work well on hard to stain woods. I've had good results using it on maple and birch.
Paul
Thanks. Good suggestion except where do you find them in New Jersey. I cannot find them anywhere. Is the internet the only place? How do you use them?
If you have a Rockler or Woodcraft store nearby, they carry the TransTint dyes.
-Steve
the closest woodcraft is Pennsylvania. But I can order from the website. What are the best color dyes to order. I generally lean towards the cherry/walnut/mahogany look. That would be dark, early american type. For example, like a minwax early american or zar teak naturary, early american. Thanks.
"the closest woodcraft is Pennsylvania."
Well, New Jersey's a small state. ;-)
(I used to live in Princeton, by the way.)
"What are the best color dyes to order."
The ones that give you the color that you're looking for. ;-)
I would suggest visiting Homestead Finishing and looking around. If necessary, you can email Jeff Jewiitt there and he should be able to make suggestions.
-Steve
great site. Thanks.
Don't put anything on until you brush on a coat of Benite first. The Benite will help keep the figure in the softwood from "reversing" and becoming too contrasty. It's made by the people who make Profin. I just finished a trim package out of poplar that was finished with Benite, a few coats of General Finishes "Georgian Cherry" gel stain followed by a clear coat and it looked great.
thanks for the tip. However, I used Bix wood conditioner, which is very similar to Benite. The first coat of stain was blotchy. The second coat to try and even out the stain darkened some spots almost black, now the whole mantel is way to dark. I have not finished yet. Is there anyway to lighten the stain now. It has been well-dried by this time. Any way to reverse?
Well, short of sandpaper, I know of no way to lighten a stain. I've used oxalic acid to bleach wood, but prior to finishing...no idea what would happen to a finish. However, after looking at your pdf, it looks pretty nice to me, maybe its just a taste thing.
There is no finish on it yet. But its interesting. The photograph was taken with a flash. The flash brings out the highlights so it does look pretty good in the photo. But in person it appears very dark and flat. I am sure it is partially because it has no finish. I think the trouble I am having is that I am a real wood lover. I have refinished an antique black cherry mirror, mahogany mirror, brazilian cherry piece and other hardwoods. I guess poplar was a lousy choice because no matter what I do it will never be what I really want. I appreciate the help and support I received from everyone and learned a valuable lesson. No matter how much whipped cream you put on %$#@, its still %$#@. Anyway its time to finish. I am spraying a lacquer finish. I feel this will be the best choice because it will give it some depth and maybe punch it up a bit. Do you have an opinion on the finish. I used tung oil on the black cherry mirror (beautiful finish which has now achieved a nice patina). Mahogany which is in a bath got a marine spar varnish finish. Brazilian cherry got poly and oaks I used several coats of poly. I used lacquer once on mahogany tops on a cabinet I made. Of all the choices I prefer tung oil, but not the way to go on this project.
I have had some luck using the solvent from the stain (if you ended up using stain instead of dye) and wiping the stain. Since it sits mostly on top of the wood it tends to take some off. I also like BLO over the stain, it will make the figure stand out, it looks flat now because it is just stained. Please note, it takes time (couple days) for the BLO to cure so you can't be in a rush. Then put a top coat of protection.From another NJ guy who has had to make the 2.5 hour trip to woodcraft in Allentown.
Edited 1/20/2008 9:41 am ET by jeffreysherow
yea what's up with that? Why can't we get a Woodcraft in New Jersey? GO GIANTS!!!!
pocketscrew,
One of my favorite stains for poplar and birch is somethig I make using asphaltic tar (you can get a chunk from your local roofer). You dissolve the tar with either mineral spirits or lacquer thinner and then brush it on (after getting the intensity of color by testing on a scrap of the wood you used). You can also spray it, especially if you used lacquer thinner as your solvent. After applying the stain you can then weak it using a small amount of solvent on a rag or brush (dry brushing method).
This stuff is almost foolproof. You can also get a wide range of color variations by adding small amounts of red and/or yellow pigment you get from your local paint store.
After applying it you can even add a small amount of the stain to your final finish (if using lacquer) to tone it to even it up and get the exact shade you want.
After you get accustomed to using this concoction you'll find you use probably more than anything else.
Dan
since when can you stain poplar? My shop teacher said not to stain poplar
"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail"
I agree. He was right. Which one is the poplar?
It is toooooo big
the one on the left?
"I'd rather be a hammer than a nail"
Check out message 13 of 18. There is an appropriately sized picture there. Is it time for paint? What do you think?
I don't think it's paint time from what I see. What you are reading as "blotches" looks the the beginnings of figure to me that adds character. Sure, it's dark but by no means disasterously so.
Thanks. I appreciate it. I guess it is all a matter of taste.
You learned the right lesson: never use Poplar unless you plan to paint it. However, lots of commercial furniture is made of poplar, because it's inexpensive, plentiful, and light-weight. They finish with less stain and more toned lacquer. You can buy lacquer tinting pigments or tinting solutions that you add to the lacquer. This will mask your grain just a bit, if you don't over-do it, and will even out the splotchiness.
Next time, try sponging a light solvent onto the wood before applying the stain. This gives you a lot more control over the blotchiness, especially is pithy woods, like poplar - allowing less pigment to be absorbed with each stain application. Use a solvent that's compatible with the type of stain you're using. Stop staining before the wood gets too dark, then apply your first coat of lacquer with a little color toning agent. Top-coat clear, and you'll have a more professional look - the look I think you were looking for in the first place.
I find what your shop teacher said to be rather interesting. I have been told that poplar used to be known as poor man's cherry because with the right stain it would look like cherry.
From what I have read it sounds like Pocketscrew forgot to try out the stain that he used on a sample board first. To bad. He would have seen how it would behave and then been able to adjust his technique to avoid the splotchy finish that he is probably stuck with now. If all else fails he could opt to seal the mantle with original Kilz and paint it. Just remember to use the correct primer over the Kilz to avoid paint drying issues.
I did try it on sample boards and it looked great. But here is what happened and hopefully somebody reading this can learn from my mistake. The sample board looked fine. But as I learned with poplar the pieces are all different. Some boards are blond white. Some are greenish and some purple and different shades throughout. The grain pattern also takes the stain differently. So the first coat of stain came out blotchy, meaning light and dark. However, not in an interesting figure sort of way, but poorly stained sort of way. Ok, then the second coat darkened the dark spots and filled in the lighter spots. But as it dried overnight, some of the grain started turning almost black. It could have been the color pigments used mixing with the colored grain. Similar to the open grain on oak when you use a penetrating stain that turns the grain almost black. But unlike oak it just starting getting darker throughout. Some boards came out really nice. Others look black. Others look blotchy. My opinion, Poplar is not for staining unless you are a pro and you can spray on your color and spray on your finish so you are not staining the wood but basically painting it (Bombay furniture). Oh well its not the end of the world.
I am by no means an expert on finishing, but have learned the basics fairly well. I had deduced your failure to do a sample board as that was never mentioned in your writing even though you appeared to describe most details and steps in great detail. Some woods need to be conditioned before staining with something like a thin shellac to even out how the stain is absorbed, thereby avoiding blotching. Pine is notorious for this problem; perhaps poplar is similar here. Personally I try to avoid using stain if at all possible. There are to many things that can go wrong and problems are rather difficult to fix. Future repairs for dings, etc. in the finish are that much harder to repair. I am a big fan of clear finishes and am pretty good with the polys and okay with lacquer. Could some of your problems (the almost black boards) be related to the issue of chatoyance, the property of light as it is reflected from these darker boards. Try looking at the mantle from all different angles. This is just a wild guess on my part.
I believe you are correct. But in doing more research, what I believe happened is that the iron oxide pigments in the stain over the purple and green made black. That is why the white parts of the wood took on the color I was looking for which was a deep reddish brown the true color of the stain on my sample pieces. But when it went over the many different variations, it changed the color. I learned alot on this project. In the end it was a major improvement in the house; I am sure I will be happy with it overtime. Once the fire is going and I have a nice Scotch in my hand and the Giants just won the Superbowl, I won't even notice. Thanks to all who contributed.
Sorry pocketscrew, your going to have to wait a while for the Giants scenario to happen. The Packers are going to see to that on sunday. :)
GO PACK GO!
BTW, the forecast is for a kickoff temperature of 0 with a wind chill factor of -15 to -20.....and dropping....
Rob
Well, the Scotch was smooth, the fireplace looked a whole lot better when the GIANTS KICKED THE $#@% OUT OF THE PACKERS. Sorry Rob A., but I may not have to wait as long as you think.
The Giants win the super bowl? Man , I had to pick myself up off of the floor after I read that one. I am still chuckling pretty hard about that while I respond to your fantasy. Sorry Pocketscrew, better luck next year. This year sure looks like it will be the year for Brett Favre and the Packers. Hey Rob, I grew up near Oconomowoc, Wi. watching the Packers ever since SB1 and 2.
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