Hello All,
I want to use a dark walnut oil-based stain on some birch plywood cabinets with maple face-frames. Sometimes when using a dark oil stain, the birch plywood shows darker blotches in some areas. Has anyone had success avoiding the blotches? Maybe with a particular prep application of a sealer or something similar to help minimize potential blotching? Thanks.
Gottlieb
Replies
Theres a one page article in the most recent Wood magazine about using a glue sizing to prevent blotching. They suggest applying a wood glue and water size at a 1 to 10 cut, then sanding with 220 grit after it dries. I've never tried this, but it caught my attention.
Jeff
I usually use turps based stain,but wanted American light oak to have a dark brown red finish,so had to use a spirit based stain.
Like you I was afraid of putting it on with a rag as I usually do.
Rang supplier and was told to spray on a wet coat then wipe off with a rag,worked perfectly.
Following Jeff's "I've never tried this, but it caught my attention" lead..... I would look into using a dye. Plywood is so much harder to finish than regular stock.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey Forestgirl,
I already have the oil stain (McClosky's Antique Walnut tung oil stain, or something like that) and already have the plywood cabinets built. I agree that solid wood is more predictable and easier to work with, but I have this situation to deal with. I thought of a glue wash as suggested, but want to consider other alternatives. What about a sanding sealer for this application? Any comments?
Gottlieb
PS Have you used dye for plywood before? What type of dye do you recommend?
"PS Have you used dye for plywood before? What type of dye do you recommend?" You must have missed this part of my post: "Following Jeff's 'I've never tried this, but it caught my attention' lead....." <g>
No, I haven't used dye. It simply came to mind as it's often recommended for blotch-prone solid wood projects. The main washcoat I've used (again, in solid wood) is shellac. I've heard of using a glue application. Sanding sealer didn't come to mind, but sounds like it's recommended by the site that Terry linked to.
Given all the work that you've put into the cabinets, it'll be well worth it to sacrifice a half-sheet of plywood to experiment on before you hit the real thing.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Don't do anything without checking out the WDMA website and investigating the field finishing page: http://www.wdma.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3683
It will address the very issues you are concerned with.
Terry
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Edited 4/10/2006 2:14 pm by doorboy
A thinned coating of sanding sealer sounds good. I'll check the can of sanding sealer I have now for thinning directions. Thanks for the advice.
Has anyone used a thinned coat of shellac for this purpose?
Thanks,
Gottlieb
I haven't done it on birch but I just finished a kitchen job with Alder and to avoid blotching I shellaced before staining and got a nice even color.
Doug
Most stain manufacturers make pre-stain conditioners specifically to eliminate blotching. They are packaged ready to go, inexpensive and easy to use. Minwax makes them for both oil and water based stains. I normally use two applications of stain after the conditioner and have good luck blending in differences in the stock. Dark colors are forgiving. I like oil stains for the dark colors because you can work them. For light colors, I prefer water based stains, they don't turn the pores as dark as oils. A second coat of conditioner on something like rotary cut birch plywood would be advisable.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Aren't the pre-made conditioners shellac? That's what I always thought they were, 1-lb cut or whatever. Hmmmmmm, just found the MSDS for the Minwax: 80-90% Naptha, 1-2% petroleum distillates, doesn't say what the other 8-19% is. Shellac?
At any rate, is the conditioner cheaper than Zinsser Seal-Coat thinned to the appropriate cut?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG
I recently did a alder job and I tried the Minwax water base conditioner. I dont know what was in it, but it was tough(compared to the shellac) to sand and didnt do nearly as good a job as good old fashioned shellac, dewaxed of course.
I tried the oil base Minwax stuff and with that you apply the stain while the conditioner is still wet, I didnt care for that either.
Doug
I doubt the Minwax products contain any shellac. I don't know how prices compare, I always have some Minwax in the shop. I stopped using shellac many years ago. With a conditioner, you don't have to worry about too much or too little. There's no waiting to dry and no sanding dust nibs and raised grain. Simply apply, wipe off the excess and stain. It has a good shelf life and it works. You don't need any special care when applying, a foam brush works fine, there are no brush marks, puddles, or build up in corners and crevices. Excess is not sticky and it wipes right up with paper towels. There aren't any compatibility issues with finish materials, easy for pros and beginners alike.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Well! We certainly have some differing opinions on the Minwax conditioners! I'm glad to hear they have a good shelf life, 'cause I've got some old stuff in the cabinet for sure. I'll give it a spin, see which side of the fence my feet land on. Thanks for the additional info, hammer!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Gottlieb,
You're in luck - dark stains can be more forgiving than light stains on blotch-prone woods.
I find a barrier coat followed by gel-stain works well. The reason for the blotching is irregularities in the density of the wood fiber; what I find works best is to reapply barrier coat until I can see consistent penetration; that is, when I see it absorbed in one area, I immediately apply a little more until there's a consistent sheen on the surface.
Depending on the final finish you intend to apply, you can use a factory-made pre-stain conditioner, a glue size of 10% hide glue in distilled water, nitrocellulose or vinyl sanding sealer, or a diluted coat of your final finish (e.g. varnish diluted with 50% mineral spirits), but these days I usually use Zinsser Seal Coat - a 2#-cut, super blonde, fully dewaxed shellac. If you use a factory-made pre-stain conditioner, read the directions carefully - many ask you to apply stain while the conditioner is still wet, which can be a challenge on large projects.
Gel stains are easy to apply with a clean lint-free rag, very forgiving, easy to modulate, and, with an appropriate barrier coat beneath them, relatively reversible. I find it works better to apply several thin layers than to try and glop on a lot of gel stain in an effort to achieve full depth of color in a single coat.
Aniline dyes work well, but, in my experience, they aren't terribly lightfast.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 4/11/2006 1:17 pm by jazzdogg
Jazz, thanks for that post -- it's destined for my finishing notebook.
Do you use the SealCoat straight from the can for a wash coat?? I've been cutting it a little.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
What great information you all have provided! I have bought some Minwax pre-stain conditioner, and some shellac (spray on) and will probably try both. The pre-conditioner does say to stain within 2 hours of initial application. I was expecting to apply and allow it to dry, then follow with a light sanding, then stain. But I guess this may eliminate a step by staining after conditioning without sanding. I also like the comment about watching how the wood absorbs the conditioner, and applying more in the areas that seem to be more porous. All good information and much appreciated.
Gottlieb
"Do you use the SealCoat straight from the can for a wash coat?? I've been cutting it a little."
Hi FG,
Re: Thinning Seal Coat: I let the wood will tell me what to do - "listening" to the wood is part of the reason for completing the entire finishing process on test pieces before finishing the work.
I try not to work directly out of the can - even when using products full strength - in order to keep the can, and its contents, clean, resealable, and free of crud.
I generally apply sealers to end grain first (including milled profiles and carvings that have exposed end grain), then face grain, then end grain again. The ease of absorption, pore size, moisture content, and other factors, all influence these kinds of finishing decisions.
Ring porous species, like oak, can suck up Seal Coat (especially in end grain) without thinning, though a 2#-cut will sometime bridge over the open pores instead of penetrating them. On diffuse porous hardwoods like maple, and on many hardwood plywoods (because of the glue line that lies just beneath the face veneer), I'll be more likely to dilute to a one-pound cut.
Too much (or too viscous) Seal Coat can create an "aggressive" barrier layer that can tenaciously resist liquid stains. When using gel stains, you can simply apply additional surface coats, which may obscure the grain a bit. If this worries you, just visit a commercial furniture store where you seldom see the wood, just layer upon layer of finish fooling the eye <g>.
Hope this is the kind of info you were looking for,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 4/11/2006 1:19 pm by jazzdogg
I use Minwax's Wood Conditioner on birch, pine, etc where blotching may be a problem. I'm not sure exactly what it really is, but it looks and smells like paint thinner - lol.
It does a great job of preventing blotches, but it also makes it tougher to use dark stains. It cuts down on the amount of stain the wood will absorb.
Well, I completed the project over the weekend. I used the Minwax pre-stain conditioner on all of the wood. It is relatively thin, and yes it looks like thinner but a little darker. The first coat of the McCloskey's antique walnut oil stain was not too dark (as compared to the sample piece without the conditioner on it). After the second coat, the color was more like I expected. Very little blotching occurred, maybe a spot here or there, but not too bad at all. If I would have ommitted the pre-stain conditioner, I'm sure it would have had several blotches. If I would have listened to the wood better, I would have applied a second coat of conditioner to the areas that were showing me their "thirst" for it. I used Minwax fast dry Poly satin finish as the finish. The birch plywood took on the look of walnut, especially the darker side of the sheet which I had on the inside of the cabinet. I am pleased with the results, and I appreciate everyone's assistance with this issue. I normally prefer a lighter finish, so blotching isn't as much of an issue. This dark finish on birch plywood had me pondering the approach.
Gottlieb
Glad to be of some help, Gottlieb. I wish this forum would have been around when I first had blotching problems. No 'puters in those days - lol.
One last suggestion. Write down what you used and how you used it. Write it in an obscure place on your project................ Write it on a piece of paper and tape it somewhere in your project.............Write it down and store it somewhere safe. Someday, you'll be glad you did. - lol
I use Carver Tripp Safe & Simple Sanding Sealer.
It take less than an hour to dry and you can apply your stain or topcoat after a light sanding of 220 grit sandpaper.
I use a wipe-on polyurethane gel stain. This combination works great on birch and red oak plywood and solid red oak boards.
I used to hate finishing before I stared using this combination. Now it is kind of fun because it is so easy to do. I use throw away rubber gloves, disposable foam brushes for the sealer and white paper towels for the polyurethane gel.
I recently built maple cabinets with a dark finish. The two best best techniques I applied to get uniform color and look were: apply a very thinned coat of shellac with a little color, my was stain, and it was not the final color but a component of the final color; and I also used a gel stain. The first technique was mostly effective at achieving a uniform color/stain but the second created a nice look. Please note: using the gel stain hides the grain more than other approaches and limits your color choices. Good luck with your project.
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